Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

The Power Grappling Perk on MA p. 51 gives the option of replacing normally DX-based 'grappling rolls' with ST-based rolls. It also allows the replacement of ST rolls with Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling bonuses with ST-based rolls against Judo, Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling.

The second benefit is straight-forward to adjudicate. A ST roll (with a possible +1 or +2) becomes a ST-based skill roll.

But the first one is tricker. What are 'grappling rolls'? Are those any rolls against grappling skills (with the caveat that the perk explicitly does not affect rolls to hit and active defences)? Any rolls you make for 'Actions after a Grapple' in MA?

In particular, are either of the following 'grappling rolls'?

a) Ready an item while grappled.
b) Rolls to inflict damage with Arm Lock or Leg Lock?

I like the Perk, but I feel that it may incorporate too many effects for one trait. For one thing, I dislike how it benefits the cliched weak, but skilled, akidoka just as much, or more, than it benefits more realistic grappling MMA fighters with ST and DX scores closer to each other.

I'm thinking of splitting it up into Power Grappling (allow substitutions of ST-based rolls for DX-based ones) and Cunning Grappler (allow ST-based skill instead of ST rolls). But that's not workable if the benefit under Power Grappling applies too seldom to be any use.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I believe it was Kromm who has mentioned before that it's intended to (basically) replace everything that's not a "to hit" or "parry" roll, if you grok my meaning. I'm apparently especially inarticulate this afternoon. EDIT: I'd actually go right back to the Basic Set to clarify what the GURPS rules mean by "grappling" - p370 uses it to refer to a state or condition, rather than "a grapple" which is a single action which initiates the state or condition of grappling (as in Actions After a Grapple). "A Grapple" seems to pretty clearly refer to that first class of forbidden actions, the "to hit" part. Which leaves everything else wide open.

The wording of the perk seems pretty clear though: (emphasis in the original, changed to bold so it's visible in the quotebox)
As you aren't hitting anyone with it, grabbing anyone with it, or parrying with it, yes.

Same answer, with the same explanation really.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Sorry, addressing something from the second half of your post that I meant to hit above but got distracted:

However, the guy who gets the most out of it is the cliched strong, not DeXtrous, grabby guy. Who may have DX 10, Wrestling 12, but once he gets his hands on you oh god. EDIT: All the points that Cliche the Akidoka spent on DX and high skill get dumped into ST for twice the numeric benefit after a grab is successfully initiated. In exchange for terrible chances to initiate a grab.

The cliche'd weak-but-skilled akidoka doesn't have a good ST. Being able to substitute a ST-based skill roll for straight ST on the parts that gain a benefit from Wrestling is certainly good for him, but substituting a ST-based skill roll for a DX-based skill roll for everything else is insane.

Big Slow Guy is just plain better off when he's using both features. He gets MORE benefit than Cliche, the Akidoka. Splitting it into two perks penalizes Big Slow Guy over Akidoka, when the perk is meant to benefit him over Akidoka.

Akidoka gets more out of the ST+Skill for ST part, but less out of the other part. It seems to average out to the same value - AND incidentally plays into the sister-cliche that skill can completely compensate for strength or even exceed it.

I would let Cliche the Akidoka call it another perk entirely if Power Grappling seemed to cause the player cognitive dissonance, but I wouldn't split it.

EDIT: Of course, if Cliche spent 24 points on his Judo skill, and Big Slow Guy spent 24 points on his wrestling skill, and just moved the points out of DX, he's much better off than the Skill 12 example. Power is obviously most useful when combined with accuracy.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I like Big Slow Guys as a character archetype, so I think you're stuck with me babbling away in this thread. Sorry. I promise not to bring minotaurs into the discussion though.


Cliche, ST 10, DX 14, HT 12, Judo 18, Power Grappling perk.
Mr Big, ST 18, DX 10, HT 12, Wrestling 15, Power Grappling perk.

Mr Big has bad active defenses against Cliche grappling him - the Perk doesn't help him any, whereas Cliche's high skill and high DX mean that he's good at evading Mr Big's attempts to grab him (by parry and dodge) and he can burn skill on Deceptive Attack to further destroy Mr Big's defenses.

When Cliche tries to judo throw Mr Big after parrying one of his crude attempts to grab, Mr Big is in trouble, because Cliche's attack is a to-hit roll vs active defense, and neither gets the benefit of the perk. Cliche is using Mr Bigs attack against him in support of the cliche. Working As Intended.

But if Cliche tries to judo throw Mr Big from a grapple, Mr. Big becomes nigh immovable - it's a contest of Judo vs ST, DX or grappling skill, and Mr. Big gets to make a ST-based grappling skill roll due to his perk. Suddenly instead of being 18 vs 18, it's now 18 vs 22. If Cliche tries a damaging throw, it's even harder to pull off, and Mr. Big can probably ignore him as he yanks on Mr. Bigs arm. Cliche could substitute ST-based Judo, but that would be kind of stupid.

A more balanced build for Mr Big that gave him ST 17 and put those 8 extra points into Wrestling and put the two points into a bit of Brawling, or some more interesting perks, or a technique where his Power Grappling would be put to good use, like Wrench Arm, would obviously be more effective.

Obviously Cliche can use something like Wrench Arm after grappling Mr Big and get to use ST-based Judo instead of ST as the basis for his roll, but Mr Big has the advantage coming and going. Not only does Mr Big get to use a ST-based Wrestling roll (effective 22 vs 18) in his attempt to Break Free before Cliche goes for the twist, but on the Quick Contest Mr Big has a high ST to resist the twist. And Cliche's swing-crushing damage is pretty sad compared to Mr Bigs big pile of HP. Mr Big, on the other hand, has ST 18 (or 17), for a far more dangerous Swing damage, AND is preventing Cliche from escaping with ST-based-wrestling, AND is using ST-Based-Wrestling in the contest vs Cliche to twist his arm off.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

The far-more-normal "balanced build" MMA guys with close ST and DX scores get less benefit, but the perk really isn't meant to help them. They've got the advantage of having their character sheet better designed for fighting in the first place, unlike Cliche and Mr Big. ;) They can spend the perk elsewhere and enjoy being good at everything.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Side note - Kromm suggested in a PM back on 01-12-2009
This isn't so much a Harsh Realism suggestion so much as a Gentle Realism, unlike the default state of Judo throws which is more like Happily Cinematic.

A Harsh Realism suggestion might use a BL vs Wt. comparison except that weight has no character point cost and game design becomes sort of surrealist at that point (see also, fatness is a super power). If a Very Harsh Realism GM was enforcing a strict relationship between HP and weight you could do ST vs HP and tinker with the ratio to express relationship between the derived scores of BL and Wt. or just go straight to BL and Wt.

All that blathered on about, I might do (ST-2)*2 as the Harsh Realism setting, as ST-2 is the rating used for Knockback and thus makes me feel like it's less randomly chosen :D

Either way you juggle it, it starts looking better for Mr Big vs Cliche when you start clamping on constraints on the Judo-Throw-After-Parry

EDIT: old thread here

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Do you have a cite somewhere?

Of course, it would also be awesome if His Line Editorness hisself saw fit to chime in, too. ;)

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Yes, but less good than the specialist who got himself a Perk that eliminates his glaring flaw.

But, very well, I'm not saying that this Perk shouldn't exist.

My point is rather that it has two seperate benefits that don't necessarily go together in fiction or reality and that each one of them is broad and useful enough to justify calling it a Perk on its own.

To me, that's a good argument for splitting up the Perk.

Note that being allowed to switch ST rolls for ST-based skill rolls is not better for strong guys than it is for weak guys. It's utility is entirely indepedent of the ST score the character has and depends solely on the skill of the character. If the character has DX+3 or more in Sumo Wrestling or Wresting, this Perk benefits him. If he has DX+1 or more in Judo, this Perk benefits him. ST is irrelevant for this second benefit.

That's why I think it would make more sense for these to be two seperate Perks, one designed for strong guys and the other designed for skilled guys. The strong and skilled guys would take both, of course.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Though that breaks down on the lower end of strength.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Icelander, your posts remind of the two big differences in biologists, lumpers and splitters. Those that tend to call a new fossil a member of an existing species, and those that like to split them into new species.

You sir are a splitter. No problem, just remember that many of us are lumpers. :)

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Ironically, in the thread previous to this I'm arguing that certain skills are close enough to each other that their defaults should be closer.

So it's not so much that I necessarily want to split everything or lump everything, but more that I place a great deal of value on logical and consistent groupings.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I have recently come to a similar conclusion that Power Grappling is probably too strong for a 1 point perk.

The benefit to dexterity is to-hit and active defense, but since ST costs 10 fewer character points you recover 2.5 skill levels by switching DX to ST and buying up skill, which nets +0.75 parry, +1.5 to-hit, and otherwise +3.5 once grappled.

I gets even weirder depending how you interpret "grappling rolls" if you utilize Judo and its ability to substitute a skill roll for practically any close combat DX check. The entire DX attribute becomes largely irrelevant in the context of unarmed combat... obviously a guy with a gun across the street should still win.


I like the idea of the perk and I've brainstormed some concepts to nerf it a bit, but this whole thing is untested. So before I try to fix something that isn't broken: what is the obvious mistake I'm making?

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

One has to be very, very skilled to defeat someone a lot bigger and stronger than you are at grappling. Once you're in close combat, especially if he outweighs you by a lot, you have to be VERY fast, and VERY good.

I know you were being hyperbolic, but of course the guy "across the street" isn't in close combat, and ST-based power grappling isn't relevant.

There are circumstances where the DX guy has enough advantage, even in a ground-fight, that high-ST high mass guy can lose. I at 165lbs was doing pretty well against someone 6'5" and 250lbs for a while...if we weren't doing position grappling he'd have been toast quickly (he was untrained, I knew way more submissions than he did); but we were just doing positions, and eventually he was able to bring his weight to bear...and then no amount of skill in the world (because I was limited to positional movement) was going to get him off me.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

That's absolutely true. The "problem" (debatable) is that not only does the strong guy have this significant advantage, but he paid 1 point for it. Other 1 point perks are things like Iron Hands or Ground Guard which I hope you will agree are significantly less useful. The ST guy also has nice utility in striking with higher HP, damage, and BL for times where Karate or low tech equipment are needed.

From a character concept standpoint: between two equally skilled opponents, of course the larger and stronger should win. This was entirely true of most historical warriors across all cultures. But in typical game terms, the larger and stronger person should have had to pay more (higher level), or else what's the incentive to play a tiny 70s-cliche judoka?

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Well, since ST and skill are orthogonal, the larger and stronger person does have to pay more.

And even if you don't count the uses of the skill that you can't make ST-based, skill is cheaper than ST too.

If the strongman grappler focuses on raising ST, rather than skill or DX, they'll be able to do terrible things to you...if they get their hands on you. But they won't be good at landing the attack in the first place, and won't have active defenses. Whereas the highly-skilled Judoka will be able to land grapples easily and parry (potentially denying the strongman the chance to grapple at all), and also be very good at the rolls to accomplish things in the grapple despite lacking ST.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Except that from what I can figure, turning DX into ST + Skill is still a net gain across the board for defenses, to-hit, and of course after-grapple.

I suppose there are probably break points at high levels where the extra basic speed/move is a significant advantage, or at very low levels where putting everything into skill at the exclusion of either ST or DX would be best, and of course in a broad enough game dexterity has other skills and uses (we are focusing on unarmed grappling here which skews perspective). But at the very least these would be specific situations, not Generic scalable rules.


In the unusual situation of grappling compared to normal shooting/striking combat, once you do land a hit you don't need to worry about it any more. The ST guy will break free with trivial ease, while the technical guy is completely boned.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Well, obviously. DX isn't a good investment if you're optimizing one skill. It's also especially not a good investment if you're trying to build a super-skilled but weak grappler taking advantage of Power Grappling.

Buying up DX isn't the trait of the super Judoka, it's a trait of the guy with lots of non-cross-defaulting DX-based skills.
What, the ST guy's ST+2 or ST-based skill is way higher than the skilled guy's ST-based skill? Only if skilled-guy is either underpowered or not actually skilled-guy but rather fast-guy trying to pass.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Granted, and in a full-fledged campaign with dozens of other skills it's probably not an issue. Doesn't change the fact that for a single perk this is an extraordinary benefit. The better argument might be that grappling should always default to ST if it makes more sense, and give a perk to make a "technical fighter" or something.

For every DX-ST conversion you gain net +3.5 to break free (1 ST, 2.5 skill). Note that the skilled guy gets no skill bonus to prevent the strong guy from breaking free. I'm assuming we are talking about campaign levels such that several attributes can reasonably be expected to be above normal, in a 20 point game everyone will have 10s and just some skill. But in a cinematic martial arts game, Supers with comic book Hand to Hand, or any number of other settings with adventuring-level points this becomes an issue.



It seems I'm failing to get my point across very well. I don't care to see dexterity be more important or strength unimportant. Nor do I take issue with the stylistic portrayal of Strong Man vs Skilled Guy. I am simply asserting that as written, Power Grappling perk is possibly out of proportion to other perks.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I get where you're going. In my experience (and a dedicated BJJ or other grappling artist might have more; we also fight using slightly diff rules) what you're seeing in GURPS is almost not worth a Perk. it's possible for a strong fighter to nearly ignore a weak but quick one.

I think what we might have to do is look for situations where, for example, the DX guy can use his weight as a lever (sitting on a guy's head) or only attack something (Arms, Wrists, or fingers) that cause a "Pin" or a successful grappling result due to pain and physiological limits that ST can't overcome.

But really, many big guys develop, even without training, an instinctive knowledge on how to use their size to best effect. I've seen Brock Lesner fight a few times (only a few), and he obviously has trained that. Woe to he who gets under him; the guy's just too big.

The guy who beat him that I saw (and who later lost in a rematch where he tried to grapple ST- and DX vs ST- and DX...and lost badly) won because he got in a very fast Grapple of Lesner's leg, and hit him with an ankle lock, which also puts a LOT of pressure on the knee. No amount of ST in the world lets you resist that sort of torsion, and Lesner tapped quickly.

I guess my predisposition, and I'd be willing ot be talked out of it, is that one point means "character is aware how to use their size in fights" and is a natural outgrowth of living a life of Big.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Which I don't mind at all.

I just don't like the fact that the ability to get the most out of high skill, independent of ST, comes free with it. Power Grappling has two unrelated effects and they seem to be the sort of effects who do not necessarily have to go together in fiction or reality.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I actually disagree with this, since the DX roll in question here is not a use of an ability to grapple, and I don't see how ST helps.

This is part of a Ready maneuver, and while I'd mitigate penalties based on having Pinned (big, maybe total removal of penalties), or Grappled (partial removal), your opponent, I'd mostly adjudicate this as something part of a combat maneuver.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I like the idea of this perk and can accept this argument, but I don't feel that Power Grappling as written reflects it at all.

In my previous posts I have turned DX into ST to illustrate the basic problem that I see, but we can easily take it to the logical extreme and say that instead of buying ST+skill, we simply buy 5 levels of skill. In this way we use Power Grappling to end up with extremely high "strength" for grappling purposes without actually being strong at all, or even the stronger fighter. We have the highest skill level, and have also turned the Wrestling +1/+2 skill bonus into an uncapped bonus based on any of the 3 grappling skills.


One of my brainstorms both removes the skill aspect which Icelander seems to object to, and reinforces the "bigger guys throw their weight around" concept that you and I seem to agree on as being logical.

Power Grappling: +1 strength in all regular or quick contests to do with grappling if you outweigh your opponent. If you are also stronger, add the difference of your unmodified strength scores. Double this bonus if your Size Modifier exceeds that of your opponent.

Completely untested, but it seems to make more sense to me on paper. Decent start?

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

The thing is, high ST really does make the moves more likely to be successful, so I don't have much issue with basing some rolls off of ST. The cry "stop MUSCLING IT!" in class is so often repeated that it's just the natural way to do stuff.

once you back off, and learn the skill based on DX, adding the ST component to it makes sense to me.

of course, maybe this means Power Grappling isn't a Perk. it's just how people fight:

1. The ST delta between the two should definitely apply. Or maybe you can apply as many levels of delta-ST as you have levels of skill or something, to represent that there ARE right and wrong ways to have superior ST boost your move.

2. The size modifier thing, as well as weight, should apply to all of this stuff, unless you're deliberately targeting only a body part (working on a giant's finger might be like a Leg Lock or something)

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Makes sense to me, too, but what doesn't make sense is that the same Perk covers replacing DX with ST and adding a bonus for high skill.

Both are logical traits for a highly trained athlete in a grappling style to have, but it's easy enough to imagine a character whose concept only calls for one of these two.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I'm not sure I buy it. You're replacing DX with ST in both cases; just what you're lending your experience to changes when it's a skill substitution.

I need to think on it more. My only issues with ST, Weight, and SM usually revolve around the mastery of DX, but there are a lot of rules, including Power Grappling, that make up for this AND make a lot of sense.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Perhaps because Power Grappling is ½ of Attribute Substitution, so they had to fill the other ½ with something.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

No, you aren't replacing DX with ST in both cases.

The cases I think that are not the same effect at all is when you are replacing ST with ST-based skill. This is a case where the utility of the Perk is not connected to your ST score at all. It actually helps the weak, but skilled akidoka make up for his lack of ST with his skill.

Which is fine, I guess, but I'd prefer that be a different Perk.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Not all Attribute Substitutions are born equal. In some cases, I wouldn't allow them at all, and in others, even a limited effect is useful enough to justify a Perk.

I rather think that Power Grappling would still be useful even if it only allowed the ST for DX substitution and I think that a Cunning Grappler Perk that allowed ST for ST-based skill substitutions would also be useful enough.

But if I'm convinced that it is not, I'd prefer to add a minor benefit to both of them than bundle them together. They don't seem to be thematically connected enough for that.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I suppose my disagreement with this fluff interpretation is that I view the ST-based uses of grappling to be the various contests and times you can substitute in ST, such as in Arm Lock where you can base damage on either a ST roll or your Arm Lock technique, which fits the stereotype Strong vs Skilled better... it's probably fair to add skill/technique bonuses to some of these rolls also. By simply adding both together you fundamentally change the interaction instead of focusing on "bigger brute manhandling his opponent physically" which is the direction I'd like to go with the changes I've considered.

In terms of crunch, I still maintain that it is worth significantly more than a 1 point perk. The argument can be made that all grappling should rely on strength by default, but this would require so much testing and balancing that I personally won't try to implement it as a house rule. If I were to go this route though, instead of a perk I would probably utilize a technique-to-use-with-other-techniques along the lines of Counterattack, essentially upping the cost to bring into line better.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Can you elaborate on how such a technique would mechanically work?

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I will admit taking issue with this characterization. My attempt at illumination of why ST based mechanics have at least a good run at the truth is not fluff, but experience. I've grappled bigger and smaller people than I am, as well as one or two people of equal size but much smaller.

Power Grappling is more or less correct as described. If you feel that only after you've gotten some skill does this make sense...fine. Only allow it after a PC has spent 10pts on grappling skills (Judo, Wrestling, Sumo). At that point, you've either spent 4/4/2 in, say, Judo/Wrestling/Sumo, or more likely either 8/2 in Judo/Wrestling (for the parry and throw and finish on the ground set) or 8/2 in Wrestling/Judo (for the ground fighters who also bend folks).

The only thing that I'd probably do if you're really making maximum use of Power Grappling is perhaps not allow certain things. Arm/Wrist and Leg locks as described are DX based, almost entirely. If you base it on ST, you're probably doing Wrench Limb (often very successfully).

Other than that, and after chatting offline with another well regarded GURPSer who has also actually done MMA with grappling and striking, I'm back to the Perk is fine. If you have an issue with it, recall that while some Perks are taught from the git-go in a style, many can only be acquired after 10pts spent in particular skills.

Even if you say grappling is taken at 100hours per point, that's still 1000 hours of training here. Two hours per day, every other day, for four years. Eight years by RAW at 200hrs/pt. Learning to make maximum use of your ST while at the same time a DX11 fighter picks up Wrestling-13 and Judo-10 (8/2 pts respectively) doesn't seem game breaking at any normal human ST.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

However, the game-benefit of allowing ST-for-DX substitutions mainly affects these techniques. Pins and takedowns already offer the option of basing it on ST and the other damage-dealing options are ST-based.

Certainly not game-breaking, no. Nor unrealistic.

But you're forgetting that Power Grappling does two things. One is knowing how to make maximum use of your ST. The other is knowing how to make maximum use of skill, regardless of your ST.

I want skilled grapplers to have the option of both of those, certainly, but I feel they should be thematically distinct.

What I'm wondering is whether each of them is powerful enough to be a Perk in their own right or whether I should add an extra benefit to them if they are to stand seperately, something more thematically appropriate. What do you think? And what benefits should I add, if any are needed?

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Power Grapple
Hard
Default: prerequisite skill-5.
Prerequisite: Any unarmed grappling skill; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

You’re adept at applying force precisely when wrestling. You may opt to base normally DX-based grappling rolls on ST. Roll against Power Grapple. You can use another technique as your grappling move; see Using Techniques Together (p. 64) to find effective skill level.

Following the example of Counterattack technique gives something along those lines. Of course, the skill-based strength bonus is still uncapped so the basic problem I have remains, but if people want to allow it the GM can now expand the range of character levels before this perk becomes a "must have" for every grappler with any training.


I'm sorry, we must have different definitions of 'fluff' ... to me it is simply the narrative explanation of what/why is happening, as opposed to the number-crunching aspects of game mechanics. Not meant to be denigrating.


The issue I have is not them bringing "their strength" to bear, it is that their skill level (a completely independent variable) gives them strength and therefore eliminates any gaming drawbacks to having a trade-off. This is why active defense and to-hit still benefit from the perk, despite the obvious attempt to prevent that by specifically excluding them. A significantly weaker fighter can get large benefits from "power grappling" via unlimited strength gains. Wrestling caps at +2 strength ordinarily, but this allows +10 and more. Giving the tiny woman with ST 7 and Judo at DX+20 a ST 27 score so she can brutalize Brock Lesner, based on her ability to "utilize her ST effectively" just feels... wrong. (If she was using skillful techniques I wouldn't care, which is what Arm Lock and such are supposed to do). Not to mention, I'm far more concerned with the scalability of these generic rules rather than its implications in a realistic low-point campaign. I'm sure you can envision a cinematic MA game with skill levels beyond 13.

Given that a normal human being has ST/DX 10 each and skill level 13 is considered within the norm for "ordinary folks", I contend that a perk which is mathematically superior for any character with at least DX+3 to take is no longer a stylistic characterization tool with minor/occasional benefits (perk), regardless of its realism.


Is this because everyone else reads "ST-based Judo, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling roll" while I read "ST-based Judo, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling roll"? We're substituting a skill for an attribute and nobody sees potential for mishaps.



Ok to be fair, my examples have devolved to the point where DX and ST are irrelevant and a single skill reigns supreme, so saying that defense/to-hit benefit is no longer right. But they are certainly not harmed since this perk makes attributes little more than point sinks.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I'm going to forget the entire rest of the discussion for a moment and discuss an example, using Arm Lock, noting where Power Grappling may or may not apply.

A and B are fighting. A attacks B, and B rolls, and makes, a Judo or Wrestling based Parry. Power Grappling (hereafter PG) does NOT apply, since it's an active defense.

B now has the opportunity to do something nasty to A. He may attempt to use Arm Lock against A, by rolling against DX-based Arm Lock, which can be based on Judo or Wrestling. Again, PG does NOT apply, since the description on p. B403 explicitly says "...roll vs Judo or Wrestling to hit." [Emphasis mine].

Next turn, assuming the Lock succeeds, A may attempt to Break Free. This is a Quick Contest of ST, with fairly mongo bonuses for B if he's got A pinned or is grappling A with both hands, AND +4 because it's an Arm Lock. Yow.

However, let's say A has Power Grappling...a ha! In this case, instead of just ST, he may make a ST-based skill roll instead...basically 'floating the bonus' from his skill to his ST. In effect, his Judo or Wrestling skill helps him fight the lock; the more he knows, the better he can leverage his ST to break out. And yet, he's got to overcome up to a +14 bonus (Pinned plus Arm Lock), so you're going to have to be MUCH stronger AND much more skilled before this is remotely an issue.

Where it makes things more interesting is when B might want to do a ONE HANDED Arm Lock (Martial Arts p. 116). You still can't leverage PG to initiate the lock, because that's a to hit roll, so we're safe there. however, when the next turn comes around, and you're making your contest of ST at ST/2. You lose effectively ALL the bonuses unless you've got the guy Pinned. In reality, this means that normal people can never put on a one-handed Arm Lock; or rather, it's fairly easy to escape, since once you've got the lock (and you'd better be good enough to absorb the extra one hand penalties, and that's DX all the way) even a fairly strong person (ST12) will be even-up against a weakling of ST6, and at a significant disadvantage against ST10-12.

Now, if you have Power Grappling, the rules as written seem to suggest that you can float your skill bonus over to ST, making someone who spends to DX+4 get SOME benefit for those thousands of hours of training to his Arm Lock skill with one hand. If you wanted to, however, you could say the bonus adds to ST FIRST, and is then halved for one hand...a very defensible GM call. So in order to BREAK EVEN at a one-hand lock, you need ST12, DX+8 in Wrestling. With DX10, that's 32 points in Wrestling, 20pts in ST. To break EVEN with a ST10 guy.

For the opposite case, on the offensive, with two hands and Arm Lock, the bonuses are so extreme that PG will mainly be used to add to the ST roll to break free. In THIS case, it goes over 1:1, but you need enough ST and skill to overcome a routine +9 bonus here, PLUS overcoming any superior ST of the other guy. In this case, PG only makes it less than futile to even attempt.

I'm going to ask for help in coming up with examples of when you make each type of roll. The second concept in the PG description, allowing a ST-based skill roll to sub for Breaking Free, is not just a non-problem, I think it's great, and a good time where skill SHOULD be useful in helping out ST.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

This isn't a quick contest of ST. It's a quick contest of your ST or Arm Lock against your opponents ST or HT.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Another example. I'm not doing this to necessarily prove a point, but my knowledge of the grappling rules isn't as good as the HTH and esp the firearm rules, so examples help me.

Let's again take two fighters, A and B, and this time, the strategy will be that B wants to either respond to an attack by A or initiate one by going for a takedown, at that point try and flip him over onto his face, and from there apply a Choke Hold. Even as I start, I'm not sure how to model the 'flip him over' thing, but let's see how it goes.

A attacks B, and B attempts to parry. Since this is an Active Defense, PG doesn't help. Assuming A fails, and B parries, it's now B's turn. Note that high DX-based skill is the only thing that will help here with the Parry, or else a high DX+HT for Dodge.

Now B goes to attack A, using Judo or Wrestling to initiate a grapple. This is a To Hit roll; PG doesn't help you. Let's assume that B gets lucky, and scores a "Hit." A is now Grappled.

Back to A. He may attempt to grapple back, at -4 to DX because he's already grappled by someone else, or he may try to break free. PG doesn't help him grapple back; the return grip is an Attack and to-hit roll. If A has PG, then it WILL help him break B's grip; he'll need this because if B's grabbin' with both hands, he's at +5 to this contest; effectively A is at -4 to hit with a grapple (based on DX), and -5 to break free with ST. PG only helps the second case, and that extra skill to ST is needed to fight the grapple. Let's say B attempts to Break Free, but fails - but clearly, the defender has a much needed use for PG here, to get whatever bonuses his training grants to resist the grapple.

Back to B, who now wants to do a Takedown (p. B370), which is a Quick Contest of ST, DX, or the best Grappling skill. What the PG Perk means for either is that rather than ST, DX (if the grapple skills are lower than raw DX), or Skill, it becomes a contest of ST+Skill Bonus or DX+Skill bonus, ST, or DX (in case his skill is negative, but honestly, if you have Power Grappling, it's because it's not). So really, this means that if you are Strong, you use your skill to slam the dude to the ground. If you're Dextrous, you use your skill to trip him up. [1] On the resistance end, you can skillfully move (DX) or just push back in the right way. I don't see an issue here.

OK, so B goes for the Takedown, and let's assume A goes thump. ("...and they made a very satisfying thump when they hit the floor!"); Not only that, but B drops with him and begins Ground Fighting. A is likely Lying Down, while B is probably the equivalent of Kneeling or Sitting. (p. B551)

A has gone thump, and it's his turn. I'm not sure if B loses his grapple in the takedown; given my own training, I'm going to assume not. So A is grappled (at -4) and lying down (-4 attack, -3 defense) unless he's got a Ground Fighting technique (a good investment). Grappling back is a hit roll that will be at -8 and PG doesn't apply. Breaking free is a contest of ST at +5 for B...PG will apply here for both fighters, and is likely the best option for A, but we shouldn't expect it to work well.

Back to B, who will try and flip to rear mount position. I'd say this would be resolved as a QC of Grappling skill or ST vs Grappling Skill or ST, and PG WOULD apply here. A is at +4 because he controls the grapple, but I'd say that's all. Ironically, going for a Pin is almost EASIER; this is a direct contest of ST, and PG does apply. [2]

Let's say B is successful, and moves around to A's rear. A is deeply boned, here. He has the same choices (Attack at a massive penalty, or Break Free) as before, suffers additional penalties for Posture, and is now attacking an enemy behind him. I'm not even going to bother with A's options; he's bordering on Crispy Toast right now.

B goes for the Choke Hold, and since the roll to apply the hold is a to hit roll as per Martial Arts, PG doesn't apply. A can roll vs Grappling Skill -2 to Parry, at a penalty for Posture. PG again doesn't apply. If the attack succeeds, PG will apply in task resolution, as it should.

It seems to me here that the benefit of PG is to allow a normal-ST person who's also a skilled grappler to have a chance in HELL at thwarting the moves of just about ANYONE who successfully lands a Grapple on him.

On offense, the bonuses for successfully achieving the status of Grapple (and even more so Pin) render the PG bonuses almost superfluous.





[1] In this case, size and weight can matter. I would not be against converting weight in LBS to an equivalent ST score using the Basic Lift formula. Apply the delta to account for this as a bonus to the heavier fighter in the QC

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I will look in Martial Arts, but the text in basic (p. 371) under Break Free is very explicit: "If you are Grappled, you cannot move away until you break free by winning a Quick Contest of ST"

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

More specifically, A's attempt to Break Free is what I said it was. B's applying damage to A on the next turn is what YOU said it was.

...and in the Power Grappling case, I'll assume that what you're left with is ST (plus any ST bonuses for Wrestling), ST-based Skill, or DX-based Arm Lock vs ST-based Skill or HT (if they both have PG).

I'm unsure about the DX-based Arm Lock, but my rationale is that ST-based Arm Lock is called Wrench Limb.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I agree, I did mention before that I think strength rolls should receive (finite) skill/technique bonuses, kinda like Basic Set wrestling provides. Actually I tend to think the rolls to break free are just a tad harsh in general, they're fine for Basic Set grappling but when you consider that Locks inflict passive damage and allow devastating advanced moves it gets a bit messier.


I think it's safe to say that if you manage to get yourself both pinned and put into a lock you should probably lose the fight, perks and technique bonuses being irrelevant at that level of domination. For that to even happen in the first place you have to already be weaker and/or less skilled.

For the one-handed grappling, I'm really not sure how you concluded that the skill level should be halved... it seems like it would just be ST based skill applied to a half-value ST. More pertinently, your example reinforces my point that Power Grappling removes the need for any real strength investment. Why would a dedicated grappler buy 2 ST for 20 points, when they could buy 5 levels of grappling instead and get it anyway. So you just need DX+5 levels of skill at normal ST 10, (10/2 + 5 = 10, breaking even) to have a 50/50 shot of keeping an average adult in a one-handed arm lock, with NO special bonuses, at a total investment of 21 points (including the perk). That's basically the same cost as being slightly above average intellectually. As a side note, I think you can apply the arm lock with 2 hands normally and then release one hand later as a free action.

You are right about PG not directly helping defenses/to-hit, however the PG user should always have the highest practical skill because there is no real incentive to invest in anything else! He doesn't need ST (see example 1) or DX (for 1 skill?).

PG does not help with the ST contest to resist your opponent from breaking free... so it does have some utility there... however because skill is so much cheaper and does help with your own escapability (as well as everything else) it is still a far stronger play to max out skill, try to land the first/best grapple, and know that you have the best chance to break free if you need to. At lowish/harsh realism skill levels the +5 for 2 hands and such will hold, but because the PG bonus is both uncapped AND increases rapidly, any serious grappling adventurer/warrior will very quickly reach the point of breaking free with trivial ease, and never be caught.


PG may be realistic, and its bonuses may make real world sense. But at 1 point it is not giving up ANYTHING of serious value that would justify a "tradeoff" for the advantage in game. Take a look at Ground Guard (the other main grappling perk) and try to justify the two costing the same. Or think of a reason why a decently skilled grappler wouldn't bother take Power Grappling. It doesn't matter what your size or strength or preferred style is, or even who your opponents are going to be. Any grappler is going to want high skill (same as any other specialty), and anyone with high skill is going to get massive benefits from Power Grappling.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I believe my post stated that I agree with you, but that my implication was that gave too much boost to skill. Adding ST to Skill, and then halving, makes it more symmetrical with the "your ST is halved in the QC" that comes along with the basic 'one hand grappling' stuff.

You keep comparing the wrong thing, here, which is always a degenerate case of massive skill investiture that is both an edge case and not really the point. Yes, pretty much skill trumps all, and if you invest in PG, since all of a sudden skill gets added to ST, it trumps all even more. Since the cases I've seen in my couple examples are where I think an expert grappler SHOULD get a big bonus to his effective ST based on his skill, this bothers me not at all.

And though the Perk is only 1 point, please do note that unless the GM gives his say-so, it requires first a 10-point investment in Aikido, Aikijutsu, Judo, Jujutsu, or Sambo (I might have missed one or two) skills if you're a stylist, or 20pts in generic melee combat skills if you're not, before you're allowed to buy it.

If the argument is "I can create a one-trick wonder that's ST10, DX-10, Power Grappling [1], and Wrestling-25 [60] for 61 points, and he'll womp the crap out of any equivalent 60pt character that DARES spend 61 points in any other way," I stipulate that this is true and add I don't care. GURPS isn't designed to foil purposefully degenerate builds, and it's the GM's job to do so. I would certainly reject this character were it presented to me.

I think this falls into the 'degenerate build' argument. Yes, you wish to maximize your skill, but you may also want to carry gear, have decent HP, and hit hard with weapons as well. Likewise, if you have more than five skills you care about, DX rapidly becomes the better overall buy, and then you're OUT of the degenerate 'only skill' case, with a reasonable balanced character where the benefits of PG are more in line with "occasionally you get a benefit from moving skill to ST," and "you ALWAYS suck less at defending against someone who grapples you once they make that first successful roll and you miss your Parry or he crit succeeds and you don't get one."

It doesn't? I'd assume skill adds to ST here if it's an option, both on attack and defense.




Trade-off? It's not a trade-off, and isn't meant that way. Perks are effectively "you can ignore one special case rule that normally gets in your way" in many cases. In this case, for non-degenerate builds, it allows skill to apply to ST in a few ways that actually work out, in my opinion and observation through training and practice, closer to how real grappling tends to work than the rules currently show.

Without it, the typical grappling match would be over in about ten second or less, every time. Once you get a capital-G GURPS Grapple on someone, their life is pretty harsh from that point on.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

As a by the by, at this point I'm going to drop off for a bit. I've sunk too much time into this argument as is. I'll keep track of the thread, because it's interesting, but I've yet to be convinced that the philosophy of Power Grappling is off in any way. The non-degenerate examples I ran, though few in number (the Arm Lock case and the Takedown and Pin case) showed me that PG mainly allows for an effective DEFENSE against what would otherwise be a totally dominating grappling offense.

I would be happy to see examples of where non-degenerate cases, that is, characters that are reasonable, break down unbelievably due to PG. I'd likely accept nearly any character with ST from 8-18, DX from 10-14, and up to about 30-40 points in unarmed combat skills.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Note that I was originally concerned with it not because of what it allowed you to do, which I think are both rather reasonable things for a trained grappler, but rather that one Perk allowed two essentially unconnected benefits, either of which seems rather useful on their own to me.

I was simply wondering whether to split Power Grappling into one Perk which allows one to substitute ST for DX and another Perk which allows one to substitute ST-based skill for ST. I don't think you're really given your opinion on what you think about that.

Entirely unconnected to Power Grappling, I was shocked when I found out that the +4 to the Quick Contest to avoid having someone break free and the cumulative -1 penalty to his rolls were in addition to the +5 you get when you use both hands. I always thought it was instead, and still found Arm Locks useful and realistic enough.

I have zero problems with an Arm Lock being extraordinarily difficult to escape from once you've got a secure lock, but I can't help but think that an effective +9 to one side of the QC immediately upon grabbing the arm might be overstating it. That essentially means that a grappler has pretty much no chance to escape once a grappler of equal skill has started to apply an Arm Lock. If he fails the first Active Defence, he has already lost.

If both fighters are pretty reasonable ST 12, DX 10 types with skill 12 and one of them fails an active defence, we move to a QC of 14 vs. 23. If anyone's got a handy spreadsheet to calculate that, he can see how incredibly unlikely that is. My unscientific guess is that it's well under 5%.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I'll certainly not dispute that I have been boiling the RAW down to 1-dimensional absurdity in order to illustrate a point. My original goal was/is precisely to find a way to change or clarify it so as to prevent similar situations from cropping up in some future game, in order to do a better job as GM. See also "Judo Throwing an Elephant".

Off the top of my head I'm not aware of any other uncapped bonuses in GURPS, I feel the change from a QC of attribute to a QC of skill is an oversight.

The way I read the Wrestling skill description it doesn't look like it provides the +1/+2 bonus to it, which means PG doesn't apply either. Could just be ambiguously worded though.

This is probably our fundamental difference then. I feel that perks are 1 point advantages and should be balanced as such, and that PG may not currently meet that criteria.



I'm sorry that you think I am trying to argue with you, I appreciate your insight. Have a nice day.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

At least everyone seems to agree that the roll to break free is quite harsh in general.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I guess I look at them as sorta the same thing. In the one case (ST for DX) based Skill rolls, you're skillfully using either finesse (DX) or power (ST) to accomplish something. In the other (Skill+ST for ST), you're skillfully adding to your power based on your training. While the game mechanical effects may or may not be different, I see these two things as being from the same basic source.

A more interesting way to go - that might take playtesting - would be to look at an alternate Perk that allowed substituting DX or DX-based skill for ST in the contests to resist the effects of some of the various grappling maneuvers. Or just dispense with the Perk completely (again, free associating here rather than stating agreement or suggesting this is the right way to go) and always allow skill to add to ST for all, without the Perk, and just limit the Perk to the ST/DX tradeoff.

So, by and large, I don't see the need to split them, since I see the root cause, the ability the Perk grants, as 'can apply a force multiplier to ST based on study, and sometimes - in the ST for DX case - this force multiplier is more effective than finesse and study alone.'


My equally unscientific guess is you're right. Grappling contests seem to either go "attack/failed defense --> death spiral" or into perhaps a better matched series of attack/successful defense --> try it in reverse until someone succeeds.

I've got a concept in the background here that I've bounced off of Sean and Peter...we'll see how it plays out.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Yeah...I have a feeling that I know WHY it's that way, and in that particular rationale, it makes sense, but that means the issue's somewhere else.

dhc

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Interesting. I feel that there is a clear difference between the two, in that very different character concepts might call for one or the other, but not always both.

I guess I see the ST-for-DX substitution as being a basic part of being strong and knowing how to take advantage of it, whereas I view the other as being some extremely cunning tricks that allow a veteran grappler to compete 'out of his weight class', so to speak. One is something that I'd slap on a lot of warriors who've learnt some kampfringen as the part of their armed styles, but the other is something I'd only give to those who truly master grappling and can therefore surprise fighters who feel confident in outmassing them comfortably.

No. Just no.

Being more skilled might allow you to win against a stronger foe, but I don't want to see 'having high DX' suffice. That is completely against the direction GURPS tried to take with grappling, i.e. that it was a way for a stronger combatant to really get the value of his ST into play.

I don't like that, in that it takes away my ability to distinguish between a skilled all-around fighter who is strong enough for grappling and thus does not need this Perk against typical foes, and the dedicated grappler who has it to allow him to compete against larger men.

Well, this isn't just grappling contests. Those are balanced enough, I feel. This is specifically Arm Lock and Leg Grapple, which are apparently at +4 relative to all other locks.

Of course, an Arm Lock is hard to escape, but this applies as soon as you've failed an Active Defence. And a Choke Hold is not that easy to escape easy, yet that's effectively at +4 compared to an Arm Lock, which makes the Quick Contest several times likelier to go the grapplee's way.

Should a Choke Hold be several times easier to escape once it's in place than an Arm Lock?

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

My own experience suggests "yes." Some of that, though, is at what point you are considered to have applied the hold or lock.

Edit: to go from 'locked' to 'broken arm' is less than a second for (say) an arm bar or shoulder lock. To vibrate a wrist lock and break the wrist a moment's 'pop' of speed and effort. A well applied choke takes 5-15x as long just due to oxygen reserves.

For an Arm Lock (and I'm thinking arm bar as the archetype here), once the arm is 'in position,' you're often putting your entire weight onto just their arm. It's nearly inevitable; almost all (not ALL, but almost all) of the defenses involve NOT allowing the other guy to get you in that place; once control over the arm is established, hyperextension and either a submission or a broken arm is almost inevitable.

For a choke hold, first you have to get a secure grip on the neck; once it's in place, you have five to fifteen seconds before you black out if it's for your life. A totally clean choke hold, of course, especially one that is both a trachea and a blood choke, is both very painful and works very fast. But again, they're hard to secure...and there's much more 'wiggle room' to turn your head, pop your chin into a corner of something, loosen up the triangle, or whatever.

The real question in my mind is around what the conditions have to be before you can get that 'perfect' (or 'perfect enough to make the guy give up') hold. GURPS makes this happen in, usually, only a few rolls. Grappling matches can go on for what seems like forever...and this isn't just a bunch of skill-8 dudes failing everything.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Balance isn't my issue. Timing is. Grappling contests are, in my opinion, anywhere from 5-50x too fast to resolve in terms of how long it should take two skilled competitors to achieve their goal.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Yes. I'm with you here.

I just think that rolling a successful Arm Lock and the opponent failing to defend is not necessarily the same as having successfully established the lock with the full benefits instantly.

With nearly any technique that I've seen (note, though, that I probably have very low skill), there is a window of opportunity between grabbing the opponent's arm and before the lock is completed.

Very true.

With both of them grappling, this can be emulated in GURPS. But if one them chooses to apply an Arm Lock after a successful Parry, that carries no risk beyond any other attack and if he succeeds, he's won.

When I thought that the fighter applying it had a +4 bonus for the Quick Contest, that was fine. In going straight for a lock instead of grappling first, he had a slightly less chance of keeping hold, but as soon as the opponent failed to break free, his odds were as bad as if he had been grappled rapidly deterioated with every passing second.

But now that I find out that he apparently has a +9 bonus, this essentially means that the Arm Lock is much more useful any other grappling move. Indeed, having Arm Lock at Wrestling+4 (or+6) seems like a sine qua non of all grappling characters and grappling between two men of equal skill will usually last only a few turns.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

That's simply a side effect of the lack of lulls. Realistically, neither fighter is attacking all-out during the entire grappling contest, no more than striking fighters are throwing punches constantly.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I disagree. You've said it yourself in previous posts. From Parry to Arm Lock(Grapple/Failed Defense) to Break Free (failed due to massive bonuses to the Locker) to Apply Damage and end of fight is usually three seconds (if A parries, A then Arm Lock Grapples, B then has to Break Free, A then applies damage...that's two seconds). There's no amount of lulls that will make this go on for the length of time it takes.

A decent grappler with skill 12 will succeed in moving in and grappling the torso probably about one time in four, when all is said and done (75% chance to grapple, about 50-75% chance to parry/retreating parry) Once this grapple succeeds, it's probably a matter of two more turns until the fight is over. one to take down or throw, and one more to Pin. After that, you get ten seconds of 'playtime' to turn the guy into a wet prune.

By this logic, a fight should be about four seconds to achieve the first grapple, and another two to four to finish it.

this has nothing to do with lulls, though I agree that there's an issue there...it's just the resolution of achieving control, what GURPS calls a Grapple (capital G, meaning 'you got him') is way too fast, by about an order of magnitude.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

A little caution here. The sequence goes:

A punches, B Wresting/Judo Parries; this allows him to...

B is allowed to use Arm Lock to attempt to grapple; apparently at no penalty for targeting the Arm; this can be defended against normally.

A then gets a chance to Break Free. It will almost certainly fail.

B then puts on the hurt, which will almost certainly succeed.


On the offense, you must first Grapple, then you can proceed with the above.


I had a house rule I'd proposed where in order to move from Parry to Arm Lock you had to make the Parry by 4 (the usual penalty for attacking the arm). This cut down the initial acquisition attempt success rate by a lot, since that penalty effectively ate up 8pts of skill.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

The usual penalty for targeting the arm is -2, with a -1 if it is a grapple.

While I understand the desire to make Arm Locks harder to perform, I don't think that we need to have a higher hit location penalty here.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Well, no. But assuming that something is off with Arm Locks, specifically, we don't observe this rapid cycle of one failed defence roll leading to inevitable defeat in grappling.

But just getting a normal grapple doesn't mean you've won. The other party has a decent chance of grappling you back, for one thing.

Or risk everything by making an attack that causes you pain and then breaking free in an AoA (Double).*

*Not recommended.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Actually, to me, this sounds about right. 6-8 seconds for a skilled grappler to take down and control the average untrained joe sounds valid to me. An arterial choke will black most people out in around 3 seconds. I'm not sure if anyone else is familiar with the show Pros vs Joes, but I watched one in which the contestants had to see how long they could last against Randy Couture. They didn't make very far.

Against a skilled opponent, it will take considerably longer because they'll have better defenses, and you'll also have to worry about what grappling moves and locks they are attempting to put on you. This is part of the reason why professional fights (i.e. UFC) tend to last longer than a few seconds; both fighters typically have good grappling skill levels. When one of them doesn't, it ends quickly.

IMO, a second reason is that the rules of a professional fight take away some of the tools (i.e. small joint manipulation) which a fighter would have available in a fight to the death. Many moves which are taught to various militaries around the world are intended to quickly eliminate the opponent. You can see some of this when watching old UFC tapes from when UFC first started and the rules were virtually non-existant. I remember fights in which it was a valid tactic to grapple and then simply groin punch the opponent until he gave up or passed out.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

This me responding just before going to bed and not paying attention to who was doing what and where things were.


Still, this discussion has made me look over the various rules used in grappling and I feel like giving my own breakdown.

ST to ST based skill

Only Breaking Free, Pin, Neck Snap and Wrench (Limb) are skill less on both sides. Breaking Free is lopsided, only the one trying to escape gets a benefit from Power Grapple even if both have it. Pin requires the target to be on the ground and is a Regular Contest, and if both sides have high scores then the Contest will likely be scaled. This scaling means switching to ST based skill isn't as noticeable. Neck Snap and Wrench (Limb) do swing based damage rather than the margin based damage of Locks. Yet this also means you'll want to raise ST rather than skill to see a damage boost, which would also see an increased chance of success. However, Throws from Locks also lets you do swing damage to locations and is DX based. So overall so far, Breaking Free and Pin have seen an improvement that requires Power Grappling rather than simply switching to a skill based alternatives.

Locks inflict damage using skill or ST, so from this side there is no benefit to getting Power Grappling unless your ST is higher than your DX. Choking or Strangling does damage with ST, using a Choke Hold will give a bonus to ST but Head Lock lets you use skill instead of ST. Resisting these, and Wrench(Limb) and Neck Snap, calls for a ST or HT roll. All these ST rolls benefit from Power Grappling. So resisting grappling damage and Choke/Strangle also require Power Grappling for an improvement.

DX based to ST

The amount of purely DX based grappling rolls is quite low, and note I'm ignoring the ability to make a Judo for DX substitution in close combat. Simply doing that doesn't make something a grappling roll to me. A roll you can only make whilst grappled is the criteria I use (with probably a little fudging, but I'll leave that alone for now).

The following are pure DX grappling rolls: Shift Grip and Readying whilst Grappled. Feel free to quibble these. Throw from Lock and other Throws performed whilst Grappling I'm not sure of. Everything else that Power Grappling could affect with this already has the ability to use ST, which means the previous effect applies (unless Wrestling or Sumo doesn't give a bonus, which is unlikely).

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Again, I disagree, based on my grapple/takedown/Pin or Choke example above. Three or four seconds, with the only rate limiting step there the DX level of the to-hit roll and the DX of the defense.


Decent as in 'now that you're grappled you're at a -4 attack penalty to grapple back?' Decent as in 'if the takedown succeeds, you're at an ADDITIONAL' -4 penalty to attack to grapple back due to Posture?

No...once you've been grappled, you're screwed.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Off list, Kromm pointed out to me that this is something many get wrong; there are so many QCs in grappling that it's easy to forget that THIS one is a REGULAR contest.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

-4 to DX when using that arm, so he can grapple back using the other arm without penalty.

So I've always run it as a -2 penalty when grappling back after getting one arm grappled if using the free arm plus the arm which has been grappled, hadn't realized that was a house rule and not RAW...

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Just so. Which is why I feel that Arm Locks are particuarly problematic, with their +9 in the Quick Contest. They effectively offer a short-cut to what is functionally almost as good as a pin and what a short-cut it is! No weaknesses, really.

As always, I don't like it when one combat option is so clearly superior to others than it makes no sense to use anything else. That does not seem to me to reflect reality and it does not make for interesting role-playing during combat either.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

You have a -4 penalty to grapple back, yes, but if you foe wants to retain his hold of you, his only opportunity for an active defence are a Parry using grappling skill or a Dodge. Neither of which he may add a Retreat bonus to, I note. This is a huge deal, as a normal human has a far better Retreating Dodge than he has a parry with grappling skill.

You get a chance to grapple before a takedown can take effect. And a takedown is far from automatic, not to mention that you can sprawl. Ground Fighting can eliminate any penalty for prone posture.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Come on, people...I'm talking about grappling the body and doing a takedown here.

Sorry if I come off as irritated at you, Ze'. I'm not. But I posted two examples, one with Arm Lock (where I actually left off the final 'damaging' step, passively presuming that once you get the arm and he fails to break free, that's fait accompli), the other, which actually seems WORSE in a way, is Grapple-Takedown-Pin, which seems much more juicy than the original Grapple-Takedown-Change Positions to Rear Mount-Choke Hold sequence I wanted to do.

As I said in that post, especially...PLEASE tell me where in the sequence I've described I get it wrong. There's already one possibility, in that one of the contests is a Regular Contest rather than a QC, which means not only do you have to outdo the other guy's margin, but have to actually roll a success. Still, with the bonuses stacked on there, I suspect that's not an issue.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

which is a big 'effing deal, unless you're already uber-grappler. Even someone who's got (say) DX12 and Wrestling-14, a 40-50pt investment, is only 50-50% to grapple back.

And I also happen to think that the -4 to Grapple back is probably too harsh...and I also have some what I think are better ideas here. We shall see.

My concern in this matter is more around two trained grapplers in the skill 12-16 range; I will again stipulate that having a grappler thrash a totally untrained striker is realistic and born out by the early years of MMA competitions, plus a great YouTube video of some tiny wrestler guy beating the tar out of a 6'4" basketball player who really picked the wrong guy to haze.



I did note the Sprawl option in Martial Arts, although I'll note that you DO go down automatically if you sprawl, which is the entire point of the takedown. The Ground Fighting requirement was noted in my original example; I'd definitely consider it one of the "two or three" Techniques that should be in most 'modern grappler' styles.

I'll also note that for the practitioner that doesn't want to go to ground (b/c they don't have Ground Fighting, or because in the words of Kuk Sa Nim Taejoon Lee, "the problem with gangs is that there's never just one opponent") that the best option is a Judo Throw or a throw from an Arm Lock.

Still, I am again more concerned in this case with the perception of how two fighters who choose to engage in a grappling match who ARE reasonably skilled will be a case of 'whoever succeeds in that first grapple wins.'

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Had a thought last night that might address some of the balance concerns with adding skill to stat for some things.

1) remove this from the Perk. Now the Perk is only swapping ST for DX in appropriate situations.

2) apply the following rule all the time:

When making a ST roll such as the one to Break Free, or to resist damage (ST or HT on the defense), ALWAYS take HALF of the skill bonus/penalty (DX-2, DX+5), rounded down, to ST.

So an untrained person who has ST14, but no points in any grappling skill, would be looking at DX-5 (Wrestling or Sumo) or DX-6 (Judo); half that default in both cases is -3, so he'd be effectively at ST11 if untrained. I don't think (I looked on the net, but couldn't find...) any of these skills has a natural default, so I used the effective defaults from the usual A and H skills to come up with the 'untrained' penalties.

If trained to, say, DX+6, he'd roll at ST17, since not only is he strong, but he's knowledgeable about how best to technically apply that ST.

So, in order to grapple with your full effective ST, you must have Wrestling, Judo, or Sumo (and this tends to vary with certain rules, so Wrestling is likely the best bet here) at DX, for two to four points.

This makes a sliding scale of impact of ST, shows how untrained and novice grapplers can be owned by skilled but weaker fighters, and how it naturally gets better over time with training. And this applies to everyone, so you don't need to remember a one-point Perk in order to fight effectively; you will naturally apply your skill to your natural ST when it comes to avoiding the impact of locks, throws, takedowns, and grapples.

Power Grappling, then, only allows substituting ST for DX for effect (but not to-hit or defense rolls) rolls.


Edit: This basically says that 8pts in skill are equivalent to 10pts in ST (which has ancillary benefits beyond these rolls). It also more or less establishes a baseline for the ratio at which "the weaker fighter can overcome a stronger one, yadda^3" at every two points in skill offset one point in ST. Six points in skill (not character points, but Judo-10 to Judo-16) would be required for every +1SM difference, IIRC, since I think each point is +3 on the contest of skill.

It's basically point balanced, and with the modification I propose, it's in place all the time, no perks or special consideration required. I THINK that will help redress some of the issues I have with how quickly fights can end when they shouldn't.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

The -4 to attack is at least as good as +2 to defense. So unless the original grappler's base dodge is as high as their best unarmed parry (not just grappling parry), the counter-grapple is at least as hard as a non-counter grapple...and landing a grapple takes some time on average.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

For a fairly typical man-at-arms with Wrestling at DX+2, skill 12 and Dodge 8; we get a Dodge of 11 with Retreat, but only a Parry of 9. So, sure, the counter-grapple is as hard as the first grapple, but no harder, really.

Against an unskilled grappler, as Doug pointed out above, it's far easier than that. Which is quite realistic.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

In response to the original post I would say it is too seldom to be worth the split. Having looked over everything to do with grappling in Basic and MA, the overlap of both effects seems large. If someone were to take one of the effects as a perk, the utility of the other would then be worth less than if it had been picked first. In other words, the other effect is worth less than a perk once you have one of them.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I suppose this is a fair observation.

But not all Perks are equal. Instead of comparing the effects against each other, the question we have to ask, is a Perk that encompasses only one of these effects worth it when compared to any other Perks that could be taken instead? Is Cunning Grappler (add full skill to ST rolls instead of +1 or +2 for skill) comparable to Ground Guard? Is Power Grappling (replace DX-based rolls with ST-based rolls) comparable to Neck Control?

In my view, the answer to this is yes, these Perks stack up well against other Perks which could benefit a similar character. Before Power Grappling is split, it is indisputably better than other Perks which affect grappling. Even with the split, the two resulting ones are very competative.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I don't know that this was a design goal for Perks, though. I understand your desire for it, but all skills aren't created equal either.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I'm not obsessed with making every Perk precisely equal. On the other hand, I would prefer that choices between them were realistic choices that could be made to distinguish characters from each other. This demands that none of them are so inherently superior to other Perks that not choosing it would be a deliberate decision to cripple the character compared to someone who did.

I'm not saying that Power Grappling was that bad. But in splitting it, there is certainly more variety between grappling Perks and perhaps an opportunity for more characterisation in choosing them. I also plan to add some grappling Perks. For one thing, there probably ought to be one which provides a bonus to break free rolls.

Defensive Grappler?
Provides a +2 bonus in Quick Contests to break free?

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Please forgive the thread necromancy, but I've recently discoved the utility of this Perk and have a specific question.

Does this Perk apply to a Judo-based Choke Hold Technique when rolling for damage/fatigue? While Judo-based skills normally don't benefit from Wrestling/Sumo ST bonuses, thus the ST+Skill for ST substitution is invalid, Choke Hold refers to the basic "Choke & Strangle" quick contest on B370.

Edit: Additionally, if I can use the ST+Skill substitution, do I use Judo or the skill level of the Technique?


I use a leveled Perk I call "Hard to Hold" which gives +1 to break free per level. Compare the cost to "Slippery" at 2pts/level that gives +1 to break free & additional benefits.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

I just realized that I've completely failed to grasp the differences between Quick and Regular contests.
Could somebody please enlighten me?

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Quick Contest is where you have to succeed by a higher margin than your opponent.

Regular success is where you have to succeed and your opponent has to fail for you to win. Keep rolling until it happens.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Aha, so Quick Contests depend on MOS, and Regular don't only Success for the active part and Failure for the other. Thanks
But is the winner only the one with better Margin of Succes, or can it also be the one with the lowest Margin of Failure?


I think I've better read the whole combat chapter as well as Martial Arts to find out what is what kind of contest then.

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Just about everything but pulling a weapon away and Pin are Quick contests; those two are Regular Contests.

Actually, what I described upthread (you have to roll a success AND beat the other guy) is technically a resistance roll, which are usually only used for supernatural events.

At least, for now.



(Mwa ha ha)

Re: Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'
 

Smallest Margin of Failure.