Social Engineering
 

Might enough sweet-talk and cheap whiskey persuade Bill Stoddard to reveal some details about his upcoming GURPS book, "Social Engineering"?

Re: Social Engineering
 

If we could apply Social Engineering so effectively to start with, why would we need the book?

Re: Social Engineering
 

So we can do without the whiskey?

Re: Social Engineering
 

If the book is what it sounds like, it would be rules for cultures and ecconomies. Think GURPS :Alpha Centauri's society/ecconomics rules only far more flexible and far better linked to real world knowlege and scholarship. It would let you give different groups and societies interesting flavors, edges, and weaknesses.

Re: Social Engineering
 

You need to know your subject. Offering me anything with alcohol is good for about -3 to reaction or influence rolls.

I really, seriously, can't talk about either the length or the topics of Social Engineering; those are part of my contract with SJ Games. I'm willing to talk about why I think I'm a suitable person to write such a book, if that has any interest for you. Or I'm willing to watch as you discuss what you would want in a book on social position, reactions and influence rolls, and related topics, and maybe steal topics for the revision.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

If I offer catnip before you lord, Thy Cat?

CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE!!

Re: Social Engineering
 

Can you at least confirm that it has something to do with social engineering?

Re: Social Engineering
 

That sounds interesting to me. I think I've read that you have problems with certain forms of social interaction like humor. Am I wrong in this memory?

Re: Social Engineering
 

Okay Bill, so tell us why you think you're a suitable person to write "Social Engineering" for GURPS

Re: Social Engineering
 

Throwing my name with the lot that want to know "why."

Re: Social Engineering
 

Remind me, were you the one responsible for the alternate social rules in Mysteries? If so, I have my doubts. You're cool when it comes to fluff and settings and all that, and you shine as a GM, but as soon as rules show up, you become mediocre. (Notably, there were some very dubious points in Fantasy and Supers.)

((WARNING: Very tired and sleepy, so forgive me if I misremembered who wrote what books.))

Re: Social Engineering
 

What points in Supers, Fantasy, and Mysteries did you dislike, Molokh?

Re: Social Engineering
 

I'm speaking without re-checking the books, but I remember that whswhs' explanation of Field Sense differed from Kromm's, that Fantasy produced large numbers of dubious numbers (primarily in the vehicle section) and a strange, underdescribed IA enhancement, and my rants about Mysteries can be found in older threads, more than once.

Re: Social Engineering
 

"Something to do with" would be fair. But this book uses the expression rather more broadly.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

I'm just not getting into this with you. If you're eager to decide that my work is valueless before ever seeing it, go in peace. I'll talk with the other people.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

Well if you listen to ideas for your book then I would like to suggest a few. I think it could be useful to "warm up" those that the social engineer wants to control with mundane advantages first before using supernatural powers. FREX a succubus could use Sax Appeal to weaken the Will of a person before using her Mind Control powers, the same is true of a bard who could play beautiful mundane music first to weaken the Will of the listeners so that his spells would be less likely to be resisited. Scaring PCs first could also weaken the Wills of PCs so that an Elder Thing or demon would have an easier time making the PC go insane or get possessed.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Like deceptive attack as applied to influence skills.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Would 'memetics at all TLs' be a bit too obvious a guess/suggestion? ^^

Re: Social Engineering
 

Long term effects from social rolls, e.g you've made your "win friends" roll agianst the NPC by a lot, now future social rolls are easier against them.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Given that Bill hates even the smell of alcohol, and I believe may have never had a drink in his 50+ years, I think whiskey is the wrong choice.

Re: Social Engineering
 

No, it's actually coffee I hate the smell of. Alcohol isn't that bad. I've tasted tiny amounts of alcohol, mostly in imported chocolates that include it as an ingredient; I've only once tasted a dessert made with coffee, and it was a ghastly experience that I hope never to repeat. But I certainly don't drink the stuff. I've celebrated my sixtieth birthday without ever consuming enough alcohol to experience mental effects; likely I'll continue in this habit for the rest of my life.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

I imagine that that was the skill that landed former President Bill Clinton in a heap of trouble.

Re: Social Engineering
 

I think there should be a discussion of how much manners are likely to change -- and how severe the reaction penalties would be -- in cross-time and cross-world interactions.

For example, suppose a modern American were transported back a hundred years. He'll be able to speak the language, might not look outrageously out of place (particularly if he wore business attire), but his language and manners would be a bit off. How much would the reaction penalty be, and are there any other factors to consider?

Now repeat the situation, but make it two hundred years. How much is the penalty?

Or, heck, send him to 2010, but a 2010 where the American Revolution failed, and the British Empire (which includes most of North America) is still a going concern. How much then?

Re: Social Engineering
 

the rules for Cultural familiarity already covers that 8)

unless you wound to comed up with Social Levels in the mix?

Re: Social Engineering
 

That's a good suggestion for a topic to address. Of course, we have a baseline of -3 for cultural unfamiliarity, but this would apply to lesser divergences than Western vs. Near Eastern vs. East Asian. I could see handling it either like Accented at -1 (viewing full unfamiliarity as analogous to Broken), or like unfamiliarity with a form of a skill at -2 (but quicker to overcome).

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

I, for one, am looking forward to this book. My current campaign has taken on a definite social and political bent, with parties, formal balls, truth potions, and a dire need to get the King hitched in order to prevent an unpleasant civil war.

Personally, I've been hoping for a little more expansion of the Politics skill. IE - how it might look in different settings, how to use it for influence peddling, rumor-mongering, and so forth.

Re: Social Engineering
 

My Manse campaign dealt with a lot of that sort of thing: young aristocrats courting and being courted, political debates by the council of house leaders, a formal ball, a servants' masked ball, a soldiers' lacrosse tournament and dance, a bachelor party for a soldier who was getting married, and a duel to the death between two house leaders, among other things.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

We've had long and loud discussions about social game mechanics in our gaming circle for years. The pros and cons usually wind up like this:

+ less social players can play social characters. goes along with less intelligent players can play genius characters.

- you wind up with awkward moments. (i c-deuce the barmaid. yuk yuk). (and i've seen my share of socalled genius characters do dumb things because of dumb players).

+ it encourages roleplaying by provide a forum for it with risks, rewards and structure.

- it stifles roleplaying by putting good roleplayers in a straitjacket of rules and stats they must have (and in GURPS, engineer) on their character sheet.

+ it allows beyond human capacity social powers.

- it squashes PC free will. ( I c-deuce the Brick to go make me a sandwich. yuk yuk).


Personally, I fall on the anti-social mechanics side, with the rare exception of magic/super social powers/spells, etc. I've had games (other then GURPS) pretty much silence my RP because the archetype i had was not a social one (I was a fighter or a wizard, not a bard/rogue). I knew if I opened my mouth, even with great points and good RP, a roll would be required and my stats would not support it. I'm also a little more old school, where stats were only desired for stuff you cannot do in person for safety/expense/legal reasons.

What I'm curious about is if there will be a kit for everyman (er everyPC) to include some basic average social stats in there GURPS build.

~Zed

Re: Social Engineering
 

Wouldn't the normal default system cover this?

My campaign is highly political and social. I run a combat about once every 3 or 4 sessions. I still try to "engineer" (if you will) a sense of danger or menace and excitement when the pcs deal with the npcs. Having to deal with knights, barons, dukes, bishops and cardinals, even in a non violent situation, has dangers all its own.

I am very much looking forward to this book.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Social systems don't have to work this way. In Weapons of the Gods, for example, your Brick could simply reply with "I accept the penalty/decline the bonus" and move on, refusing to sleep with your character. At most, a social WotG character can offer a stick or a carrot to get someone to do something.

And come to think of it, GURPS doesn't really have this problem either. All a successful Sex Appeal roll does is create a Very Good reaction. If the barmaid is disinclined to sleep with you, all your Sex Appeal roll gets you is a big blush and warm feelings (She might just give you a discount or something). Likewise, the player can merely respond with "Wow, I like your character more than ever," and not sleep with you. The GURPS social system focuses entirely on the Reaction Table, but allows characters to react, based on those guidelines (I like you/don't like you) however they see fit.

It's only games like Exalted (which I think has a bad and unrealistic social system) where Social Rules translate into Mind Control.

Re: Social Engineering
 

I'm excited about this product, provided it will be useful for an idea I have about a Traveller-style merchant/mercenaries campaign in which one of the major problems is getting along with the natives. I presume the social rules will have some guidance on alien/near alien societies, as well as rules for utilizing social skills in a more normal fashion. Pyschology (Xenopsychology) ought to provide some help, or Expert Skill (Non-Human Commerce or Xenosociology) at least a framework.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Right. In this specific case, for example, I take it that a Good reaction is sufficient for sex in an established relationship; a Very Good one is needed in a new relationship with someone who is open to the possibility; but an Excellent one is needed with somebody who wouldn't normally consider it—a person to whom you're the nonpreferred sex, a celibate, a married person who takes their vows seriously, or anyone to whom what you're suggesting is mildly squicky (for seriously squicky, I'd also apply reaction penalties).

And that's for NPCs. For PCs, I'd say, "They make the following emotional impression on you," and let the player decide. Unless the character has Lecherousness, of course. Normally I figure that NPCs will react as the reaction roll indicates, unless there's a specific reason for certain reactions not to be plausible for them.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

Social machinations are a form of mind control... kinda. I know a few players who get very frustrated in games where there is any hint of the DM or other players telling them how to feel and think in their characters (supernatural effects/powers aside). They view any mechanical influence as an attack. It's just their style of play. Why should they all of a sudden have a 'good' reaction to someone? In this style of play, unless the player feels the same pathos toward another character, getting told to react a certain way kills the game for them. (seen it happen personally).

See Quick Primer by Old School Gaming about a different perspective on social game mechanics.

I'm sure the GURPS Social Engineering will be neat and I look forward to it. I just hope Bill and the GURPS team address the issue of players as well as in-game stuff.

Interestingly enough, the most successful Diplo-mancer I've ever seen, while having plenty of super natural powers to aid her work, was successful because she also had tons and tons of contacts and allies and other resources she could call on and bring to bear. She could get the team top notch gear, info and get us into places that hacking/fighting into would have been not fun. (the game was Shadowrun, Physical.. er Social Adapt).

Re: Social Engineering
 

Am I recalling correctly that there are already some guidelines in the box under the description of the Area Knowledge skill in Basic? If so, that could be a good place to start...

Re: Social Engineering
 

I think those modifiers are too big, given that lack of cultural familiarity is only -3. And that's even somewhat plausible: We're talking in one case about knowledge of very specific bits of factual information, but in the other about a general sense of how to interact with other human beings. A lot more of the latter transfers over.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

If this book does for social interaction what GURPS :Martial Arts does for combat interaction, how could it not be worth the money. If it's about how to structure societies in RPGs, it's worth the money. I don't always agree with Mr. Stoddard, but the man is widely read and a good author, so I trust the resaults of his labour will be worth the cash!!!!!!!

Re: Social Engineering
 

I would absolutely love something that dealt with social manipualtion at the macro scale. Social "mass combat" for diplomats/inteligence agencies/merchant concerns/supers groups/etc. And certainly updated rules for 4e memetics wouldn't be out of place, for use in TS campaigns and eventual inclusion in a new 4e TS setting book. Better to come up with comprehensive rules now.

Re: Social Engineering
 

She'd give a discount if the Reaction Roll was a commercial transaction. Trying to seduce her is more of a Request for Aid, I'd think. The Reaction Roll table is for NPC reactions, PC's use the Influencing PCs rule, which simply inflicts penalties to the target.

Re: Social Engineering
 

To some degree those exist in a fragmented form, combining THS: Changing Times (mostly p47) with 3e material.

A united and possibly reworked version would be good, though.

Re: Social Engineering
 

With my blessing.

A consequence of Fantasy coming long before Low-Tech and High-Tech were written . . . and for that matter, before even the earliest, sketchiest draft of Vehicle Design. Bill used 3e stats converted as best as they could be converted at the time. The limitation was the state of the art, not the artist.

Bill didn't write that book.

I chose Bill for this book because he's just about the only GURPS writer I'm certain has run successful GURPS campaigns that were largely or entirely about social interaction. I think that speaks volumes about his suitability here! And I don't particularly think that Bill has a problem with crunch . . . he can't predict the future (which would've helped with Fantasy) or control other writers' minds (say, to make Lisa Steele write things you didn't like in Mysteries), but he does ask me before making rules calls (e.g., as in Supers), and has written his share of perfectly good crunch in such works as Steampunk, Steam-Tech, Covert Ops, and both editions of Low-Tech. And his playtest credit on Powers and Additional Material credits on High-Tech and Thaumatology weren't earned by not being good with rules.

Re: Social Engineering
 

My general experience is that engineers being social usually do bring the whiskey.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Geez. You'd think you'd be able to hire a decent telepath in this economy.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Or scotch.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Precisely. After Martial Arts, Vehicles, and this one, we are only missing a crafts book. For a general "skills in use book," see DF: Dungeons and Action: Exploits, which are both genius.

Re: Social Engineering
 

To be specific:

1/94-12/95
Uplift: The crew of a trade pioneer ship selling earth merchandise to aliens

1/98-12/99
First Contact: Diplomats and scientists negotiate with an advanced alien race that arrives in the solar system in force in 1935
Oak and Ash and Thorn: Present-day British teenagers turn the wrong corner and find themselves in Faerie

1/03-12/03
Ghazi: Dan Melson, Janet Tait, Marc Biagi, Stacy Sallume/Risa Yardas
Gods and Monsters: Alexander Shearer, Allison Lonsdale, Eben Brooks, James Hay, Tim Sallume
Under the Shadow: Carol Kalescky, Jefferson Swycaffer, Katie Weatherup, Laura Luchau, Risa Yardas

1/05-12/07
Whispers: A mystery campaign set in Transhuman Space (and a major inspiration for Transhuman Mysteries)

Plus some combat-heavier campaigns mixed in. But even those—for example, Salle d'Armes, which I ran to learn how to use the GURPS Martial Arts rules—had social encounters. Happily for me, my players always go for that sort of thing, so I get lots of practice.

Thank you for the testimonial, sir. And let me note that you have quite consistently been generous with help on rules puzzles, including detailed analysis of the reasons for doing things one way rather than another. For example, your clarification of reaction rolls and influence rolls usually being alternatives shaped not only the detailed content but the entire outcome of the current book.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

It's a good thing you didn't let him write Psionic Powers, then.

Is anybody at SJ Games HQ willing to play poker with RPK?

Re: Social Engineering
 

Cool. This book may be very interesting and useful for many campaigns.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Personally I'm actually as interested in a good social campaign book as in a social rules book.

Because I've tried my hand at "courtly intrigue campaigns," and found that creating a huge cast of NPCs, their interconnected web of open and secret relationships (even with SocNetV), and last but not least a tangle of interesting intrigues is quite intimidating.
A well written "how to" and "shortcuts" book would've been welcome...

Re: Social Engineering
 

Can anyone (Dr. Kromm, Bill, or anyone else "in the know") give an idea of what this book's definition of "Social Engineering" would be? In other words, what might, say, the introduction say about the scope of the term?

Also, will there be a playtest for this supplement? Because, if so, I'm interested!

Re: Social Engineering
 

At this time, whether there will be a playtest is not known to me.

As to the scope of the book, you can infer that from what has already been said, and especially from the mention of GURPS Martial Arts. This is a book about things adventurers can do with social skills. Now, adventurers can try to change their societies, and sometimes succeed, so it will discuss what you might call the strategic parts of social engineering; but it will be more about the tactical parts, or direct social interaction. It's not a worldbuilding book. Which is not to say that such a book wouldn't be interesting!

But for a small treatment of parts of that topic, see GURPS City Stats.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

Oooh...

This sounds like a crunch heavy book, introducing more detailed rules for something that is currently lightly defined. As such, I think that it would invite serious problems not to do the utmost to identify and correct potential flaws in the work before publication.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Does that include the two cultures competing with each other, with the PC's trying to help the expansion of one culture into an 'enemy' culture, and how multiple cultures interact when in the same area - Basically a cultural version of Mass Combat? Or, if not enough pages, will it lay the foundations for a hypothetical GURPS Cultural Conflict to follow?

(And, yes, I know that you can't discuss specific content, just think of these as 'I'd be interested in these things' statements)

And will this include how to handle situations where the PC's know aspects about another culture (Due to both cultures existing within the same 'area' but for very distinct groups of people), but haven't had chance or need to internalize and/or use them? (Note I may be using the term culture differently from the way GURPS uses it there)

Re: Social Engineering
 

"The title of the book." That's really the whole deal. Yes, the book will address social topics. Mostly, though, we thought that title sounded cool.

("They call him 'The Sand Spider.'" "Why?" "Probably because it sounds scary." Just like that.)

Re: Social Engineering
 

Maybe it is just the "engineering" bit? I would not think there would be any question for the need of playtesting if the book was all that crunchy.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Kudos for the backup and IMHO unneeded but welcome clarification.
I like most of the stuff written by most everyone but I think Supers was the biggest improvement between 3e and 4e.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Will these rules interface with the ones in Infinite Worlds page 105-106?

Re: Social Engineering
 

I wish you good luck with this. If Social Engineering gives some good systems and guidelines for these types of situations then it will be well worth the money.

I know that for a long time I didn't give GURPS Mystery a look and then when I read it in a store I found it to be way more useful then as a source books for running Agatha Christie/Sherlock Holmes style campaigns (Which I thought it was at first). I bought it on the spot.

Hope GURPS Social Engineering turns out to be the same way for social interactions.

Re: Social Engineering
 

It is a great piece of writing however it is nice to have some guidelines as not everybody has equal ability to referee everything. GURPS Mystery I felt was great at explaining how to incorporate mysteries in any genre and some of the sections were very informative to me. If GURPS Social Engineering anything like that I will get it in a heartbeat.

Re: Social Engineering
 

What bonus would bringing catnip for the authors' cats bring?

Re: Social Engineering
 

Perhaps it will explain what the reaction bonuses measure. I have a sense of what things like 6 ohms or 10 HP are, but I always wondered what and how much +/- 1 to a reaction roll was supposed to measure.

Edit: Is there an ETA for publication?

Re: Social Engineering
 

What are the chances that this book will talk about the effects of the Wealth advantage?

Re: Social Engineering
 

I suppose that would depend on which effects you had in mind. I think it's obvious, for example, that it would need to discuss the effect of Wealth in granting free Status; on the other hand, it would have no reason to discuss the effect of Wealth in letting you buy a suit of plate armor or chemistry lab equipment.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

Wealth is only peripherally relevant to social mechanics, in the way Bill suggested (it may affect Status) and in that it brackets the size of a meaningful bribe. GURPS Social Engineering will not be GURPS Economics or GURPS Money. It will focus squarely on interpersonal dynamics, not on everything that could be deemed "social" – whence the second word in the title.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Ask us again in three or four months. The first draft only just arrived. Even if all goes well, we won't have a release date before autumn, if not winter.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Will there be a new specialization of Engineer - Engineer (Social)? And what would Engineer (Anti-social) cover?

Re: Social Engineering
 

Spitting and slamming doors.

Re: Social Engineering
 

I declare All-Out-Defense (Stubborn and Unreasonable) against being convinced social game mechanics are a good thing in gaming.

~Zed

(ironic post meant to be ironic)

:D

Re: Social Engineering
 

that has been classified by the CIA ;) But lets just say it a good ways to destabilize a country.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Should I just stop trying to figure out what Wealth means? I would have sworn that it had been labeled as essentially a social advantage, repeatedly.

Re: Social Engineering
 

it's is a social advantage, as such that it gained and lost though social interaction.

but it not social in for therm of interpersonal interaction itself.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Please reread. Yes it is a social advantage, and note that I didn't say otherwise. However, it doesn't deal with the interpersonal dynamics side of "social" (which is what "engineering" blatantly covers) but with the economic side of "social" (which is huge . . . big enough for its own book, whence my GURPS Economics/GURPS Money quip). This book isn't "all social rules, ever" but "interpersonal dynamics rules," much as Martial Arts covered all low-tech, muscle-powered combat but left firearms combat for Gun Fu and Tactical Shooting.

Re: Social Engineering
 

I am very excited about the prospect of this product! When I was tinkering with my own set of house rules and clarifications for these very issues, I was trying to accomplish a few things:

1) To unify the mechanics for short term reactions (reaction rolls and the like) with long-term relationships (contacts, favors, and other lasting interactions with NPCs).
2) To identify with greater specificity how I wanted to handle social skill effects on PCs (from both NPCs and other PCs).
3) Identify a couple-dozen techniques that derived from social and influence skills and by this identify specifically what could be done with these skills other than modifying the reaction number itself (there's a lot of meat already on the bone here in basic; I was trying to identify what the default usage of each skill was and what other things could be done). By doing this, I wanted Diplomacy-guy to feel like a very different character with different capabilities from Intimidation-guy or Fast-Talk-guy; essentially protecting more than just one niche for characters with a social influence focus. One of the things I liked here was establishing baseline times for how long it took to do various social things and differentiate a one-second in-combat use of intimidation from an hour-long good-cop/ bad-cop scenario use of the same skill.
4) Try and find a way (I never really got close to anything I really liked) to use these social mechanics as part of a morale system in combat, so that players would have some ability to control or influence when NPCs would stand down or flee (as well as being able to command or rally their allies). This is complicated because it needed to have opposed skills -- the NPC enemies fear of or loyalty to their own commanders needed to play a part here as well as whatever influence the players were trying to exert through the PCs.

If the product handles any part of this (and it seems as though at least some of the above is in play), I will be thrilled to buy it.

If there is a play test, I would be really, really exited to be able to apply.

Re: Social Engineering
 

GURPS Social Engineering != GURPS In-Depth Discussion of All Social Traits. There are plenty of traits with the little handshake icon that won't be discussed in-depth in the book, because they don't fit into the theme of interpersonal interaction. GURPS Economics would be another book (and I don't mean that sarcastically -- I think it'd sell, if done right).

EDIT: Ninja'd by da boss!

Re: Social Engineering
 

Agreed! I also think a GURPS : Kulturekamp on how to model and stat societies would be KWEL!

Re: Social Engineering
 

Well it's not GURPS but the FASA Star Trek RPG had an interesting system for doing just that 8)

Re: Social Engineering
 

Take a look at GURPS City Stats for a first step in that direction.

Bill Stoddard

Re: Social Engineering
 

Roleplaying in General is probably a better place for this topic, and in fact it has already been discussed there.

Re: Social Engineering
 

Although I'd love to see negotiation (Preferably that would be able to be applied equally well to haggling over the price of an antique as negotiating a peace treaty) be given as in depth a mechanical coverage as, say, the Combat Lite rules?

Re: Social Engineering
 

As much as it irks me to say this, one of the things that Exalted does really well is avoid the question of what a person feels/doesn't feel for someon It's usually at the peace treaty scale rather than antiques, but it offers well-done mechanics. Since my games have a certain amount of social interaction, I end up using the GURPS modifiers on PC skills often. I look forward to an in depth book on the subject!

Re: Social Engineering
 

My wish list or "things I throw out there in hopes there at least considered and not overlooked"
1 on 1 negotiation in a variety of circumstances.
1 on many for things like Public Speaking, Bards, Musical or Art , etc
Exotic interactions such as with those who require an advantage to use social skills with. Examples are Spirit, Plant, Animal Empathy.
Ideas for a GM to list and stat out what kind of things exotic beings want or otherwise would react to. Exotic beings include SciFi and Fantasy of course.

Edit: Oh and a few techniques for some of the social skills would be cool.
Thought about it before and seen ideas posted but the Tracking technique thread reminded me.
Sure its not effective to take a lot of techniques but buying up 1 or two could seriously help define the Style of someone who does such social manipulation.
And of course various ideas for techniques also can give us ideas on how to do certain things and the penalties or bonuses applicable in certain circumstances.