Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

A cleric, at the beginning of her turn, uses the resurrection power to take the top card from the discard pile instead of kicking down the door. She discards a card to power the resurrection. Before anything else happens, another player plays stacked deck to take the card that the cleric resurrected. Is this legal?

My reading is that since the resurrection power states "Instead of drawing a face up card, ....", the cleric never draws a face up card, so stacked deck can't be used. Stacked deck states that when a player draws a face up card, you can take it, discard stacked deck, and they take another card.

Now, if stacked deck can be used, what happens next? Does the cleric take the next card off the door discard pile (which may be the card she used to power the resurrection,) and if so does she need to discard another card to power that resurrection, or does she have the option of taking the top door card?

Please advise.

Regards,
aeronaut

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

The cleric's resurrection IS a face-up draw, because it perfectly replaces another face-up draw. So, instead of turning the top Door card face-up for "Kicking in the Door", the cleric instead takes the top Door discard as a face up draw.

Thus, I believe the resurrection would allow the Stacked Deck to be used.

What happens next I think calls for an official ruling. Does the cleric then replace the stolen draw with a Door card, the top Door discard, or the player's choice of the two?

My sense is that if the cleric does get the top discard, that the Stacked Deck is not that discard - the Stacked Deck is reserved until the resolution of the resurrection replacement, and THEN discarded.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

It is correct that the resurrection replaces the draw, so, yes, Stacked Deck can be played.

So, the Cleric must discard his hand card to resolve his resurrected face-up draw, then hand over the resurrected Door card. Stacked Deck is then discarded, resolving that card, and then the Cleric must draw a new face-up Door card. If he wants to resurrect, he may, at the cost of card from his hand.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

So what this says is that if someone uses stacked deck on a resurrected card, the cleric is kind of hosed on his first resurrection, and would have to spend a second card to take presumably the stacked deck off the top of the door discard pile, or if stacked deck is a treasure card (can't remember), then either the card that she (cleric) originally discarded (if a door) or the next card down in the door deck.

Seems like it makes the cleric pay twice to use the power. Admittedly, stacked deck is a powerful and rare card, and perhaps it should be allowed to mess up other abilities like this.

Regards,
aeronaut

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

The Cleric is not forced in anyway to resurrect on the second draw, nor do I see the card as overly "powerful," it just does what it does and that's how it all works out. I don't see this as a very complex issue, either:

• The Cleric performs and completes an action (in this case, resurrection to Open A Door) which meets the conditions of playing Stacked Deck against him.
• Another player plays Stacked Deck, taking the card just drawn.
• The Cleric is now back to the point where he can draw a face-up door card, so he is welcome to resurrect if he so desires, but not forced.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

But the Cleric is allowed to draw a replacement, as per the Stacked Deck rule. Does this replacement comes from the top of the discards? This seems reasonable, since he was going to draw from the discards, but this can be bad. Can he choose?

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

The Cleric may draw from the Door deck, or he may use Resurrection *again* to take the top Door discard.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

I feel like I said that twice now. Here's hoping the third time's the charm. . . lol

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

Understood and accepted. But note that the card on top of the door discard pile may be:

1) The card the cleric discarded to use the resurrection power the first time.
2) The stacked deck card (if it's a door and not a treasure), which might be a reasonable result. I can't remember or find online whether stacked deck is a door or treasure.

Regards,
aeronaut

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

Well if it's the card that the cleric originally discarded, it doesn't seem all that worth it to use resurrection again in order to retrieve it back. I'd probably just draw from the deck.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

Yup. We've already covered that, I thought. But, rather than continuing to not know, I'm going to tell you now that the card on the Door discard pile will always be Stacked Deck, regardless of what the Cleric discarded because the Cleric's action must be completed first, like I described earlier, and Stacked Deck is, in fact, a Door card.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

Right. Of course, it's possible that the cleric discarded a treasure from hand, so that card could still be on top of the treasure discards, but would not be available when kicking down the door unless there was some other strangeness going on.

Thanks, Erik. That pretty much answers everything I was not clear on about this situation, and should end this thread.

I still feel that the cleric gets a raw deal, spending a card to resurrect and getting nothing for it. But such is life, or at least such is Munchkin, I suppose. And it's not like clerics are underpowered.

Regards,
aeronaut

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

Well where would the fun be in succeeding every single time? I don't see how this is any different than pumping up a monster to the point where a player has to run away after having used all their cards through one shots and discards. Or any other card you can use to cancel an ability, or curses to remove items.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

Now if you were to play a curse on me (Lose A Level perhaps) and I prevented that with a wishing ring, would you feel that was a "raw deal"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you don't.

You spend a card to do something (curse/rez), and I spend a card (ring/stack) to prevent that.

Fairest exchange there is.
More fair than the curse/ring exchange even, since the curse is a door and the ring is a treasure.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

No, that't not it. Playing a curse/wishing ring, or playing a wandering monster when someone is about to win, is part of the game.

The distinction here is that the cleric discards a card to get an advantage, and then that advantage gets taken away (by use of another card,) and the cleric gets nothing for her pains. If the cleric then wants to take the stacked deck off the door discard pile, she has to discard another card to get it. And of course, an unscrupulous player with another stacked deck could take that stacked deck, discarding his own stacked deck. This progression could repeat until the cleric is out of cards to discard, and is then forced to draw the top door card (more likely, until the cleric figures out that she won't be able to get the stacked deck either, and gives up.

Now that's munchkiny.

As a final suggestion, I'd recommend that the resurrection ability have the wording changed to make this ruling more clear, something like "When you are supposed to draw a face up card, take the top card from the appropriate discard pile in place of the face up draw, and discard one card." Removing the "instead of" would clarify the situation that started this thread in the first place. Instead of implies that you don't perform the replaced action (drawing a face up card;) if that is accurate, then stacked deck wouldn't be able to be used here, since you aren't drawing a face up card but doing something "instead" of that. Since Andrew and Eric have made it clear that the stacked deck can be used in this situation, the resurrection ability should be worded to make it clear that it can.

Regards,
aeronaut

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

Just like if they discarded to gain a bonus and still lost the battle. It's part of the game. Sometimes you can block someone's move.

Attack, counter attack. I'm not seeing how that's any different than any other move.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

It really is an even trade. Just like the wishing ring/curse. You spend one card to do something, the other person spends one card to stop you. The ratio is 1:1. The fact that you then need to spend 1 card to do something (even if it's the same action over again) afterward doesn't change that ratio. Seems pretty balanced to me.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

aeronaut, your rewording forces the Cleric to take the top discard always when a face-up draw is performed, while the current wording makes it clear that it is a choice. Since not every face-up draw is opening a door, the wording is general enough to say what needs to be said and in no way explicitly states that this is, in fact, something else and replacing the draw's purpose, just where the card is drawn from.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

Fixed that misconception for you.

Re: Resurrection vs. Stacked Deck
 

The reality is, this situation isn't that difficult to work out, and I don't see that the Cleric is being punished severely here, so I'm not sure what more there is to discuss at this point. Andrew and I have made it clear how things are supposed to work, and continuous arguing over minutiae won't do anyone any further good.