Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

I'm thinking of a campaign using GURPS: Psionic Powers and including a set of Imbuements as a new power.

What I'd like to do is modify the Imbuements to use the same or similar mechanics as the psionic powers while keeping it balanced.

But how?

I'm fine with one system using Hard skills and the other using VH skills. But what about,
1. FP use
2. Penalties for multiple uses
3. Gestalts
4. Getting tricky
etc.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

I don't think you can have Imbuements work the quite the same way Psionic Powers out of the supplement do. Consider that they all require concentration, but since Imbuement is intended for use as a part of physical combat, a concentration requirement means you'd need Compartmentalized Mind. The fatigue cost is a tradeoff for that.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Pyramid 3/12 has an article on Psi-Powered Imbuements. It categorizes the various skills from the imbuement supplement by the Psionic Power categories.

It details the cost differentials in the way Imbuements and Psionic Powers treats the abilities.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Does it have what I'm looking for?

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Good point.

I'd be willing to require the Imbuements to take a second of concentration before the attack.

But it seems like there should be a way to do it otherwise. A Reduced FP Cost +20% would probably be too much of a point crock. But how about giving it a Cosmic +50% (to account for not needing FP every time) and Psi -10% (to account for needing FP if you try after failing, penalties for multiple uses, countermeasures, etc.) for a net +40% on the Imbuement advantage. I'm not saying this is the way. But there has to be a way.

Or if you built them up from the ground rather than modify the exiting advantage, maybe you could include Compartmentalized Mind (Imbuements only) in there somewhere.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Hmm. Lets see:

The article puts different imbuements under different power types instead of making all imbuements a single power. It includes a few details that don't seem relevant to doing it your way.

Near as I can tell this is just the effect of adding Psionic, -10%. That's just how psi works. This seems to be the article's position.

As to "all psionic power require concentration to activate," that's not a part of the power modifier, that's just how some abilities work. There are passive psionic abilities that don't require any concentration or skill roll unless using the Getting Tricky rules.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

A fair way to do this is to add Takes Extra Time 1 to the Imbue advantage. Technically, you're not doing this to affect the Imbuement Skills themselves -- what you're doing is requiring someone to take a second to activate the Imbue advantage, after which you can use an Imbuement Skill.

No, reducing the FP cost via enhancement is a crock, just like it would be for spells. Like for spells, if you want to reduce the FP cost, you need to soak the -5 penalty. Try:

Imbuement Talent 5 (Only to reduce FP cost, -40%) [15]

That oughta do it. IMO, reducing the FP cost is a large part of why you buy high levels of Imbuement skill, so -40% is fair. Note that this assumes (A) that you're allowing this particular build as the GM, since it obviously breaks the normal Talent limits and (B) that it's only 5 points/level because, unlike the Imbuement Talent at the back of PU1, it only applies to Imbuements -- not to the various Afflictions and Innate Attacks that Imbuement Power allows you to buy.

No, this is definitely not the case. Nowhere does the article say that the way Imbuement Skills work changes. The only effect of adding Psionic is that you get a point break because your Imbuement Skills can be Neutralized, affected by Psi Static, etc. Nothing else changes.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Thanks guys.

Would Requires Concentrate -15% not be appropriate?

OK. So I'll add [15] to each level of Imbuements to remove "costs 1FP per use."

Re: The Psionic Power Modifier enabling the Using Psi abilities in GPP:
So If you can't do it by slapping the Psi -10% in there, how do you do it? Does it have to be piece meal? I wouldn't know how to handle that. Again, I'm looking for:
1. FP use (on a retry, Getting Tricky, etc.)
2. Penalties for multiple uses
3. Gestalts
4. Getting tricky (Extra Effort, Techniques, etc.)
etc.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

That'd work, too. In fact, that might work a little better, since normally Takes Extra Time would give you a minute of Imbue use. Using Requires Concentrate means you have to concentrate every time. Good idea.

Okay, but what exactly do these things mean? Some are self-explanatory, but some aren't.

1. This is probably done most easily by further limiting that "Imbuement Talent 5" that I suggested, so that it doesn't work when retrying after a failed roll. (But before we discuss a fair value, we have to talk about #4.)

2. Imbuements only last for an instant. So the only time you'd have "multiple uses" is when you're using multiple skills on the same attack (e.g., using Burning Strike and Penetrating Strike together to do (2) burn damage). If you're just talking about -1 per stacked skill . . . man, I don't know if that's even worth -5% on Imbue. Normally each -5% is -3 to skill (Hard to Use), so it seems like this should be more like -2%.

3. How would a gestalt affect Imbuement Skills, specifically?

4. Extra Effort and Psi Techniques both use rules very specifically aimed at advantages. They don't really translate over to skills. So how would you interpret the various Getting Tricky bits over to skills, specifically?

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

But wouldn't your Imbuement advantage switch off as soon as you stopped concentrating to do an attack maneuver?
You'd get a bonus equal to half of each supporter's relative bonus?

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Well, it would allow a group of Imbuement users to use their best Imbue advantage, and pool up skill.
You could allow techniques to buy off the penalties Imbuement Skills require for more powerful effects. In fact this opens the door for a way to make Imbuement Skills cost no FP:

Better Energy Use
Tech/H
Default: Prerequisite-5, can not exceed prerequisite
Prerequisite: Any Imbuement Skill

Using this technique removes the FP cost of this single Imbuement Skill.

The existence of this technique means that for a 6 point surcharge, a single Imbuement Skill can cost no FP (Remember that Penetrating weapon (Guns(Pistol)) and Penetrating Weapon (broadsword) are different skills)

It looks balanced, but perhaps it might be overpowered.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

First, that's not what psionic powers states. You get -10% for supernatural and mundane countermeasures, AND psionics now functions under the rules in "How Psionics Work."

Second, I agree that this wouldn't reduce the FP cost of Imbuement skills, but I didn't read Edges "FP Costs" as "I want imbuement skills to cost nothing to use." I was assuming he was talking about FP for psionic techniques and whatnot. The other three members of his list are all components of How Psionics Works, so I assumed he meant FP Costs in the same vein.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Giving all of the Psionic Powers an extra "costs fatigue" (with resulting point cost reduction) would be a simple way to regularize them with Imbuement.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Cool. Let's look at #4 and discuss a fair value.

I'm referring to Repeated Attempts PP6. You try to do Burning Strike on someone and fail, to try it again you use 1FP and roll at -1. Many Psionic abilities only last an instant too and still suffer from the Repeated Attempts limitation.

For example, two apprentice imbuers know Continuing Attack at Att+2 each. They each stand behind the master, touch either shoulder, and form a gestalt. Now the master can use Continuing Attack at Att+6 instead of Att+4 (which he normally has). This makes him confident to give the cyclic attack shorter intervals.

Assuming we've integrated all the Psionic Powers rules for the Psionic Imbuement power, the apprentices could also contribute FP to reduce the master's penalties for a really effective Continuing Attack.

Yes, this seems to be a central issue. Well, Getting Tricky generally involves adding Enhancements. The only enhancements I can think of adding to Imbuements (off hand) are already defined as other Imbuements. We could add a limitation to the special Talent you created so that if you stack Imbuements (that aren't pre-bought Combinations) you do pay the FP cost.

Furthermore, if the Extra Effort for Psis rule that gives +1 skill per 1FP was used, we could just say that if you want to use an Imbuement beyond the base level, the first -2 is automatically eaten up by 2FP. This mimics Getting Tricky. Since a lot of the Imbuements are kinda lame at the base level, maybe it could be ruled that it's only considered Getting Tricky if one uses them beyond a fixed penalty or beyond the level that they've been bought up as a Technique.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

This may be. It may be better to go with Takes Extra Time after all and let them use Imbuements for a minute before having to ready the power again.

I think my players would like that better anyway. : )

This is cool. But I think my players would rather spent [15] or so to have "costs no FP" for all of their Imbuements rather than pay [6] for each. I guess if they only had 1 or 2 Imbuements, this would be good.

Yes, I think you know what I'm talking about.

Yes, probably.

But I'm not trying to make Psionics like Imbuements. I'm trying to make Imbuements like Psionics.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Ahhh.....isn't Imbuement Talent 10/level, for a final cost of [30] for 5 levels @ -40%?

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

I think that's why he followed by saying:

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

All you have to do is add Psionic, -10% to the Imbuement advantage, in this case.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

It does seen to suggest that on PP4. But since the writer of PP replied to that suggestion by saying,
...it made me wonder. If he or anyone can show how this is not balanced, it could save me some headache down the road when players start working the new system.

Otherwise I'm cool with doing it that way. I would also need to add the 15 point Talent from up-thread to remove the inherent FP cost of Imbuements, no? Anything else?

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

If you want to have Imbuements not cost fatigue, ever, you can simply add a 6 point surcharge to anyone purchasing Imbuement Skills, sort of like an unusual background. It's more expensive in the long run than the 15 points thing proposed by others, but again, I'm not that fond of that solution (Talents are usually limited to 4 levels, and in my games, taking a talent so limited would mean that you can not get talent bonuses as usual)

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

It's not that I don't want them to cost fatigue ever. I just want then to cost as much as any other Psionic ability.

As for the Talent, the Rev's 15 point ability up-thread is priced as a Talent for balance only. I'm just going to roll in into the price of the Imbuement advantage. Not having it won't be an option for imbuers. Players will never even know that it is called "Talent" in my notes. And as a GM created advantage, I won't make it interfere with the 4 levels of Talent available to players.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Ah but you'd accomplish that just by adding a point of fatigue to the Psionic abilities. So you want more than that.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

Well, which is it? Do you want them to act under the rules for How Psionics Work? That's just slapping on the -10% modifier to imbuements. Do you also want to lower the price of Imbuements? Then you need the Rev's talent as well.

But nowhere in "How Psionics Works" that I'm aware of does it explicitly state that psionic abilities don't cost FP to activate. That depends on the specific ability.

Re: Imbuements as Psionic Powers
 

I want Imbuements to work just like Psionics from PP.

Even if I did want to change psionics (which I don't), just adding a point of FP to Psionics isn't going to make it cost the same as Imbuements. Getting Tricky would cost 3FP without getting a +2 skill, trying after a failure would cost 2FP and give a -1 (instead of a +1 that 2FP would usually get you with Imbuements), etc.

-------------------------

My question is:
How do I change Imbuements in a balanced way so that they follow the same rules as psionics from PP?

So far it looks like the answer is:
Apply a -10% power limitation to the Imbuement advantage and then add 15 points to the cost.

I'm open to better answers. Otherwise, I'll go with this.

Thanks.