Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

I just watched the 'Lost Planet 2' trailer and notice that in order to get out of the way of a large pincer right the hell now the protagonist(?) dives out of the way. But I'm led to believe that a Dodge and Drop can't be used in Melee combat (books aren't here, so I'm going off fellow players' advice).

Why can't it be used? It'd be a bit dramatic to do it in a brawl, but it would certainly help. And furthermore, before I look up the rule but I'm pretty sure it does, does Dodge and Drop put you in a different hex, or between hexes? Could a Drop n' Dodge followed by an Acrobatic Roll (or just attack Prone with penalties) set you up for a 'Run Around' Attack?

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

I don't know the answer to your core question, but I should note that there's a minor error here. Martial Arts does permit a 'dodge and drop' (I think it calls it a dive) in melee combat. It's much less effective than a normal retreat or a Dodge and Drop vs. ranged attack, though.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

Martial Arts allows one to use Dodge and Drop in melee, although the bonus is dropped to +2, making Retreat a better option in general. Dodge and Drop can also move where you are (an aspect used for Diving for Cover, from B377). You are best served by Retreating, unless the attack is considered an area attack, in which case you need to Dodge and Drop to avoid it.

EDIT: Just watched two trailers, neither of which had what you're talking about. If you're just referring to the ability to roll out of the way, that's probably just an Acrobatic Dodge.
Of course, you've just reminded me that I need to beat the first one. Got all the way to the final boss before my computer died on me (although I wasn't having much luck fighting him using the keyboard).

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

A dodge and drop is a terrible idea in melee combat. You might benefit somewhat from doing it against the specific attack you were dodging, but you wind up prone right next to the guy trying to kill you, in which case your attack and defense rolls are both penalized significantly. Other guy has the advantage and will cut you up.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

Unless you have Acrobatic Stand, in which case it's a free +3 if you make the roll. Easy trade.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

+2, as I said earlier, and if there's more than one enemy (or you fail your check*), you end up in a very bad situation. Also, it isn't free - you are giving up a Retreat (a +3) and your next action, as even with Acrobatic Stand it takes a Change Posture maneuver to get to your feet (unless you critically succeed, of course).

*I recently gamed out an encounter between an acrobatic swordsman and a T-Rex. The deciding point in the fight was when the swordsman failed his Acrobatics 16 check (I rolled 17) and ended up being stepped on by the T-Rex. So, yeah, relying on Acrobatics can get you killed, regardless of your skill level.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

I was under the impression you could use it right after a dodge, hence its use.

Also, another enemy doesn't seem like such a big threat; I would imagine throwing yourself to the ground gives you the +2 for every attack that turn, not just against one foe as suggested. Regardless of RAW I find it highly presumptuous that the split-second an enemy has to react (since all turns take place in a second) is enough to compensate.

And I'd hardly consider leaping away to somersault 'just an Acrobatic Dodge'. That'd imply that moving 2-3 yards, half in a tight ball, is easier to hit than someone throwing themselves to the ground.

Bad rolls hardly bear thinking about; the only counter is possibly Luck. With logic like that I'd be better off not spending any points in skills since they were unreliable as opposed to Advantages, which give hard and fast results, even if most only contribute to skill-use.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

Of course you can. But it takes an action to do so. Had you just Retreated, you could have used that maneuver to, say, Attack your enemy. As it stands (heh), you have to use the entire turn just getting on your feet.

You take a step toward somebody to swing an axe at his head. As you're taking the step, he splays himself out on the ground. Are you honestly saying you wouldn't be able to compensate? Because I'm fairly confident I would be able to.

A quick roll that moves 1 yard is a Retreating Acrobatic Dodge. A leaping somersault that moves 2-3 yards away is an All Out Defense: Increased Dodge, possibly combined with a Retreating Dodge that may or may not be Acrobatic. It isn't a Dodge and Drop - namely because you don't drop.

Bad rolls simply mean you shouldn't always rely on something. "Dodge and Drop is always a good idea because I can always stand up as a Step on my turn, thanks to my Acrobatic Stand 26" is untrue, because you always run the risk of failing (even critically failing) that roll. "Fighting these goblins will be cakewalk thanks to my Retreating Acrobatic Dodge of 16" is similarly untrue, because all it takes is one bad roll to give you a very bad day. Bad rolls should always be kept in mind, because **** happens - and the more you can do to keep said **** off of you (not going prone every other combat round, killing those goblins from a distance or bringing a competent healer with you, etc), the better.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

You can use it any time you can take a Change Posture maneuver.

Which usually will not be right after a dodge, but rather on your next turn after a dodge.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

Well, the thing is, you probably aren't. Mechanic-wise, the +2 to Dodge, being negated, means that to bust that you've gotta take a -4 to your skill for a Deceptive Attack, plus whatever the new penalty is for raking a prone guy. How it would look in real-life is when you went to swing, he dropped. Maybe I'm too unfamiliar with axe-combat to see how you'd correct, but I think if someone dropped totally down the best I could do would be lower my hit maybe three feet, which I don't think'd connect. No offense meant about your ability with an axe but if the scenario is saying that it's dodge-enhancing to 'sprawl out', what difference does it make if you sprawled against one guy and not a bunch of others. How do you sprawl just for one guy and not a bunch of others?

You do, then get back up. The 'drop' in this case is just formality but originally I thought it was a case of Acrobatic Stand. By saying Retreating Acrobatic Dodge, does that mean you're collecting +3 Dodge from a Retreat and +1 from an Acrobatics success?



I don't think I ever said anywhere that this all beared relying heavily upon. I'm familiar with playing encounters tactically (or whatever the word is) and using range and cover and the environment, whatever'll help, to my advantage. But this example is covering one specific thing, and not relying heavily on what'll probably be your best skill (16 in a 150-point game, that's not out-of-the-question right) because 'you might get a bad roll' just doesn't seem right to me; it could happen with anything, Skill 8 to Skill 80, it just isn't critical past 16.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

The bonus for a Retreating Dodge/Dodge and Drop only applies to one opponent, the one you used it against. All other attackers don't take the penalty. You get the bonus against the one attacker because it's assumed that you're moving suddenly in the middle of their attack, when they've already committed. All other attackers have not yet committed to their swings yet, and have time to compensate for your movement.

As I said above, sprawling, retreating, or other acrobatic movement disrupts an attack in progress. GURPS assumes that you're capable of reacting to changes in the situation in under a second, though. Otherwise, if someone moved up to you, you couldn't attack them immediately - after all, they weren't there a second ago!

Not in this case. Acrobatic Stand takes a full second to accomplish. If you briefly went down, but ended up back on your feet in less than a second, then it was, as Sudodeus said, simply part of an Acrobatic Dodge.

+2 from the Acrobatic success, actually. For a total of +5, but only against one opponent.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

Mechanic-wise, the enemy doesn't get the +2, because he didn't Dodge and Drop against your attack. Assuming you play using some ridiculously-complex* rules where everybody declares their intentions at the beginning of a round, and then game them out, the guy really is dropping at around the same time you are taking a Step to get closer (if you're already close enough, you'd just be delaying your swing a bit - maybe sacrifice a Step?), which should give you enough time to compensate. So long as you are using a Reach 1+ weapon, it is assumed to be capable of reaching a lying foe without you needing to change posture (a particularly short Reach 1 weapon, like a hatchet, might require you to crouch, for a -2 to hit). Worst case scenario, the attacker does need to adjust, in which case his place in the movement order drops a bit (or he makes an attack and you get full Dodge). Falling down in the middle of melee combat is generally a Bad Idea.

*Ridiculously-complex in what happens when a previous maneuver makes your choice null. If you say "I'll Step toward guy x and attack," and then he moves out of range on his turn, what the heck do you do? Give up your action? Step and swing at the air? Allow you to trade "initiative" in to choose something else? There's a reason actions are taken one after the other.

A Dodge and Drop leaves you on the ground, although you may be able to stand up readily on your next turn. It involves you purposefully splaying out on the ground to avoid an attack - it is inconsistent with a quick roll to avoid an attack.

+2 from Acrobatics, actually, but yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. The swordsman in the T-Rex thread ended up with a total Dodge of 16 after Retreating and Acrobatics.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

Considering that Acrobatic Stand takes a Change Posture maneuver to accomplish, that's hardly free. If you do it every turn, it means you're trading a single +2 to your Dodge each turn for the fact that you're not taking any action other than continuing to get back to your feet. All in all, you'd be much better off just taking All-Out Defense (Increased Dodge).

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

How does after a "dodge and drop" differ from after a sucessful sweep?

In both the defender is prone and so follow up attackers should get the bonus for them being prone.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

Indeed. Of course, at least in cinematic campaigns, an ally could actually use a sweep to give a Dodge and Drop type bonus to someone else. Riza Hawkeye does this to save her commanding officer Roy Mustang in Full Metal Alchemist. Notably, had she not forced Scar to retreat by shooting at him, Mustang would have likely been killed (either while prone or while trying to stand up). There are limited cases where Dodge and Drop is a good idea in melee.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

Yes, I was made aware of that a page ago. My assumption was that Acrobatic Stand was to get back up from falling off a mount or getting knocked out your butt, and hence was a Free Action to attempt. I was wrong, so that puts my strategy of 'rolling around' at loss.

Also, I've re-read my earlier posts and I think I come off as a bit of a jerk, maybe a bit too forceful. Sorry if I ticked anyone off with that.

Re: Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?
 

Well, you just have to redefine 'rolling around' as Acrobatic Dodge.