Talents vs Psionics
 

Hi, I am new at GURPS, so I apologize in advance if this is a very basic question. I heard about RPG games and thought my nephew and niece would love to play some, so I dedided to read about RPG and prepare an adventure to play with them. I found out GURPS and liked it from the start. Now I am preparing an adventure, but I have run into some problems.
Basically I want to include Psionic powers in the adventure.
I bought the 2 Basic Set and the Psionic Powers Books. I read the Psionics chapter in the Basic Set, and I thought I understood it, but when I started to read the Psionics Book, things turned confused.
In the Basic Set, all Psionic Powers are associated to Advantages, but in Psionics they are associated to an Advantage and then to certain skills. That's when I got confused. I remembered reading about Talents in the Advantages Section of the Basic Set, so I went back to it and found out that Talents were pretty much handled the same way (an Advantage turned into a Talent and with some skills associated), however I failed to figure out how to use them.
I looked into the Iconic Characters section and found some characters with Talents/Psionic powers (Dai and Louis), however the Psionic powers were just advantages and had no associated skills (as mentioned in the Psionics chapter). Talents, on the other hand (I assume) had the skills associated, but non of them were in the skill list. My guess is that the Talent included all of the skills and that's why they were not written in the skill section (am I right about this?), however when I saw William Headley's Character Sheet, I noticed he has Talent (Healer) 1, and some of the skills associated to the Talent were in the skill list (Diagnose, First Aid, Pharmacy, Physician, and Psychology).
Now I am not sure I understand how Talents work (do all of the associated skills to a talent are acquired automatically, or you have to buy the desired associated skills?) or how Psionics work (Can they either be associated to a single Advantage as in the Psionics chapter of the Basic Set, or can they also work as a Talent, which by the way I am not sure I understand the way they work)?
Any help would be appreciated and once again, I apologize if this is a very basic concept that I just failed to catch.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

The skills associated with psionics in Psionic Powers are an added detail (using rules originally introduced in Powers). Most of the powers would originally require a roll on IQ (or occasionally Will or Per) to use. Using the rules in Psionic Powers you roll against the associated skill for all purposes. The fact that the skill starts out lower is balanced with the fact that you can raise it cheaper than the underlying stat.

There are two types of Talents that function similarly, but not identically: skill talents and power talents.

Skill talents (like Healer) give a bonus to the associated skills (and a few other benefits), but you otherwise have to purchase the skills normally.

Power talents boost the rolls associated with using a power that falls under the appropriate talent. For example, if you have Psi Sense as part of the ESP power, you would get +1 per level of ESP Talent to attribute or skill rolls to use it.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

In beginner's terms:

If you have GURPS PSIONICS, that's an obsolete supplement from a previous edition, and it will not match up with 4th Edition GURPS books.

The 4th Edition Basic Set CHARACTERS book presents psionic abilities mostly as Advantages controlled by IQ rolls, and each level of Talent adds 1 to the IQ rolls for the associated abilities.

The 4th Edition supplement GURPS PSIONIC POWERS presents heavily modified Advantages that are controlled by IQ-based skills and come in levels that provide the amount of raw power, range, weight capacity, and other parameters. This is similar to the way things worked back in the previous edition.

If you are a first-time GM and want to include psionic abilities in an adventure for first time players...this may be biting off more than you can chew. I'd recommend starting with the free GURPS Lite pdf and one of the freebie adventures with pre-made characters you can get at e23.sjgames.com .

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

You're missing one link: the book "Powers". Powers has expanded rules, Advantages, Limitations, and Enhancements for building abilities. "Psionic Powers" is a big worked example of how you can build abilities (powers) around a certain theme. The Basic Set has the same concepts, but Powers takes it further, with additional rules, examples, and possibilities. Psionic Powers does the work of choosing among all those options for you for psi.

A Talent is a kind of advantage that gives a bonus to a set of skill rolls. One of the basic assumptions in Psionic Powers is that psi powers should have associated skills. (Some abilities in some game worlds might not need skill rolls, so that's not a given.) So the psi abilities are built on a base Advantage, but also consistently have a Limitation added that requires a skill roll. Power talents add to the effective skill of those psi skills in the same way that, say, Smooth Operator talent adds to many social / "face" skills. The Talent doesn't do anything on its own.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

In the basic set, the assumption is that the characters will not normally use skills. They'll just use IQ rolls modified by Talent. GURPS Psionic Powers does things differently.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Thanks for your response, Ryan.
Unfortunately I do not have the Powers book, so I am not familiar with the original rules... :(

This is precisely part of my problem. I do not quite understand how the skills are associated to the Psionic Abilities. If I get a psionic ability do I automatically get access to all the skills associated to it? Does it work just the same with Talents?

So, if I get a skill talent is it useless unless I also buy at least one of the skills associated to it? I mean, suppose I get Animal Friend 2. If I do not get any of the associated skills, what is Animal Friend 2 good for?
About power talents, I understand that the Power Talent (ESP Talent, PK Talent, etc.) applies a bonus to all the rolls related to that specific Power abilities, but such abilities are Advantages (Basic Set), not skills.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Seems like while I was replying I got more answers! :) Thanks to all for your responses, I'll read them and reply accordingly.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Each level of a talent is good for 10% off of the hours of study required to learn the associated skills. Animal Friend 2 will let gain a point in Animal Handling skill with 160 hours of supervised study instead of 200.

IIRC, you can get the +2 bonus to some other relevant rolls as well, like an IQ roll to recognize a particular animal is the same one you encountered long ago.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

I think most of what's necessary in Powers is recapitulated in Psionic Powers; SJGames' general philosophy is that supplements shouldn't require anything beyond the core books.
No, you buy the skill separately. You don't have to buy it, you can use them at default, but it's hard to be good at using such an ability without it.
You don't have to buy any of the associated skills; the Talent bonus also improves your skill defaults.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

There's many ways to handle psionics in GURPS. Since you have GURPS Basic and GURPS Psionic Powers, you might as well use what they put forth.

My advice:
Don't worry about what Basic says about Psionics. Use it for all the other stuff.
Use GURPS Psionic Powers for Psionics. Don't get caught up in the "statistics" section of the abilities. Just go with the descriptive text.

On GURPS Psionic Powers:
Every psionic ability lists a skill that you need to use the ability (unless you want to roll on defaults in a our-characters-don't-know-how-to-use-their-powers campaign). The player buys that skill for the character just like any other skill. The skill needed is listed with the ability (i.e. the Interruption ability on pg. 23 uses the Cancellation skill). Note, some psionic skills can be used for more than one psionic ability (the Cancellation skill can be used for 3 abilities as you can see).

After you've bought up all your abilities and the skills to use those abilities, pick out any Psionic Talents you might like. Psionic Talents add to all the Psionic skills in a power. For example, if you have Anti-Psi Talent level 2, you get +2 to the cancellation skill and +2 to the Psionic Shield skill and +2 to the Screaming skill. But this Talent doesn't add to the Cure skill on pg. 46, for example. You need the Psychic Healing Talent for that.

Don't be confused by the mundane (i.e. not psionic) Talents in Basic. The Healer Talent in Basic, for example, does not add to Psychic Healing skills. A good psi healer might have some levels in Psychic Healing Talent for her Psychic Healing abilities and some levels in (ordinary) Healing Talent for skills like First-Aid and Physician.

One final point. Talents (whether mundane or psionic) don't come with their skills. They only give bonuses to the skills. You still have to get the skills separately. Talents are a good way to be good at a bunch of skills without paying a whole lot of points. If you have a bunch of skills in a Talent, you can actually save points by getting a few levels of the Talent rather than buy a whole bunch of levels in each skill.

I hope that helps.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Hi Jeff, I didn't say I had GURPS Psionics. I have the Basic Set and the Psionic Powers Books.

Agreed, I got that part right. Actually it is clear to me that this way to handle Psionic abilities requires to purchase the abilities (Advantages) individualy and the Talents are optional, giving a bonus on all the related abilities to that particular Talent if purchased. (Getting only Talents makes a pasive psi, and getting only abilities makes harder to control the raw abilities)

Since I am not familiar with the previous edition, it doesn't mean much to me, however, in PSIONIC POWERS case, I am not sure how to handle the skills. Do I need to get the Power Talent, plus the ability, plus the skills?
Can I get only the skills or only the abilities?

I know I am new to GURPS and RPGs in general, however my personal experience has showed me that when learning something new, it doesn't matter much if something is complex or not. Since everything is new to me, I can not really differentiate between something "complex" and something "not complex". :)

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

OK, take a look at the Healing advantage on B59

[quote=B59]To activate your power, concentrate for one second and make an IQ roll.[quote]

If you buy this as an ability of a power like say "Psychic Healing" (B256) and buy levels of the associated talent, you can add the talent to your IQ when making that roll.

Now, if you are using the extra options in Psionic Powers, things get a bit more complex.

Lets say you have the Cure ability from the Psychic Healing power (PP47), this ability is built using the same Healing advantage as before. But since we are using the optional rule about skills, instead of rolling against IQ, you roll against the Cure skill, which defaults to IQ-6 but can be bought up from there. As before, you can add any levels of Psychic Healing talent you may have.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Thanks a lot Edges! Your answer is very clear and has solved most of my questions.

This is a very good advice actually. I bought the Psionic Powers supplement precisely with the intention of using it for the psionic powers (even if it sounds obvious). I'll just bypass the information in the Psionics Chapter of the basic set book.

That makes sense, If I get the ability but no skills, I can only use it by either getting the skill associated or the defaults, but just one thing. What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Take the Cancellation skill for example. It can be used for 3 abilities, but what happens if I do not get any of them? I can not use the skill at all if I do not have any abilities associated to it?

I got that part right. :)

I understand the difference now thanks to the previous information. :)


Got it! Thank you very much! This has been really helpful!

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Thanks for your answer Anaraxes. I was considering getting the Powers supplement, but knowing that Psionic Powers is an application of Powers, has made me change my mind. I may not need it unless I want to create my own powers.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Thanks for your comments Diomedes. I think I got it thanks to all the answers I've got, just one question remains: What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Is it possible? if so, how does it work? I've read that the skills are affected by the level of the ability (like: In level 1 you need to be touching the subject, in level 2 you need to be looking at the subject, in level 3 you can just imagine the subjet, etc.), so is it a requirement to have the abilities?

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

You can purchase the skill without the ability. However, without the ability you will never be able to use the skill. Having a skill in Mind-Reading doesn't give you the ability to read minds; it merely gives you skill in using a power that allows you to read minds.

Skill is for tricks, Power is for ability. You can use the Power without the Skill. You can't use the Skill without the Power. You can still learn the skill though, so long as you don't mind throwing away the points invested in it.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Mmm... That's interesting... Thanks for sharing Sunrunners

I assume we are talking about the Pionic Powers supplement, so I guess when you say "You can use the Power without the skill" you are talking about Psionic Traits (abilities that have no associated skills like Psi Static, or Possession), but what about Psionic powers? They all have a skill associated or a default (which in order to apply you need to have the skill anyway! I guess the default objective is just to save some points by not getting the ability). So if I understand correctly, in order to use any Psionic Power you need to get the ability (a requirement) and at least one skill that allows you to use that ability. If this skill can be used in another ability as a default, you do not need to get that ability too, but in either case in order to effectively use the ability, you need a success roll against the skill (or default with its corresponding penalty for not getting the ability), otherwise you can not use the skill.
That means that there is no way to use a psionic power by getting only the ability since in order to use it a success roll is needed, however Psionic Traits can be used just like a regular Advantage since they have no skills associated.
Puff!!! Can someone tell me if all the stuff I have just mentioned above is correct? :)

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Correct. I had read that you were using that book, and so tailored my answer accordingly.

You pay for the Power with character points. You can use said Power without investing any points (at all) (for any Power that doesn't have a limitation saying Requires 'Skill Name' Roll; which absolutely none of the Powers in GURPS Psionic Powers has) in the associated Skill. You can invest character points in learning the associated Skill for the Power, in order to roll something other than Attribute; but it is not required to do so in order to use the Power.

Correct.

Incorrect. The Skill is not required. It is optional. It is suggested. But in no way required. Without the Skill trained, you roll the appropriate Attribute (usually IQ or Will) instead.

Kinda. If you want to use that other Power, you must purchase that Power to use it even if it shares a Skill with another Power. Skills are for techniques, Power is for ability to do something.

In order to use a Power, you need to successfully roll against the appropriate Attribute (if the Skill is not trained) or the appropriate Skill (if the Skill is trained).

Correct. You need the Power to be able to use the Skill, as the Skill does nothing by itself.

Incorrect, as per above.

Any Power can be used just like a regular Advantage, with or without an associated Skill. If you don't have the Skill, you merely check against the appropriate Attribute instead.

Some Powers (those without an associated Skill) do not require an Attribute check nor a Skill check in order to function. They just work.

The way to think about it is: Power (required to benefit from) + Optional Skill (in order to use the Psionic Power Techniques as listed and described under the Power description). If you don't have any points in the associated Skill, you use the appropriate Attribute instead.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

While the skill is not required, without it, you'll be rolling at its default, which is Attribute-6, not Attribute (Psionic Powers p.6, or "Skill for Everyone" in Powers p 162).

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Good catch. I should have stated that rather than assumed. :)

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Definitively valuable information Sunrunners and Keeh! Thanks a lot!
I think I understand better now how the stuff in the Psionic Powers supplement works. :) I am glad to see some of my conjectures were right. I'd like to use an example to confirm I got everything right.

I'd like to have True Sight, which is an AntiPsi ability (PP25).
Its cost is 16 points for level 1 and 21 for level 2.
The skill associated is True Sight (Will/Hard).

I need to buy the True Sight ability (requirement) at any of the levels, let's say level 1 for 16 points.

Now, with just that, I could use True Sight as an Advantage and make a success roll against my WILL-6 (I assume the associated Attribute is WILL since the associated skill's Attribute is WILL), and if I succeed, I can use it.

If I'd like to have a bonus, I could either buy some levels of the AntiPsi Talent (5 points/level) to have a bonus or buy the True Sight skill at WILL+x (in order to have an advantage, but I know I could as well buy it at WILL+0 or even WILL-x) paying the cost as a standard Hard skill. I could as well acquire both, the AntiPsi Talent level(s) and Skill at Attribute+x for a better bonus.

Now, I assume that by buying the True Sight ability I could also use Shared Sight (Is this correct?). My thought is that since Shared Sight has no skill associated (just a default) and no cost it is an ability that requires (depends on) having True Sight in order to be used, and that its "cost" is the cost paid to get the True Sight ability.
In this case, how should I proceed if I want to use Shared Sight?
The default is True Sight-5; cannot exceed True Sight.
I know the first True Sight mentioned is the True Sight skill level with a penalization of -5, but what does it mean "cannot exceed True Sight"?
Somehow I think this second True Sight is not the skill, but the actual ability, but yet I do not quite understand how could True Sight-5 exceed True Sight.

I understand that if I have the True Sight ability and the True Sight skill, I could use Shared Sight with a success roll at True Sight-5 (I would yet have to figure out if I am not exceeding True Sight, which so far I do not quite understand), but what if I do not have the True Sight skill? Could I use Shared Sight with a success roll at WILL-6 just like with the True Sight ability?

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

To use Shared Sight, you roll against the Shared Sight technique, which start at True Sight-5, but you can improve that until it's at True Sight (see Techniques in Character p. 229). Usually, you'd also pay 2 FP somewhere in the process (see Psionic Powers p.8)

You can also use the True Sight to do all the things described under Getting Tricky (Psionic Powers p.7).

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Shared Sight is a Technique (B229) that lets you do something special with True Sight. To use it you roll against True Sight Skill -5. If you want to be able to do it more easily you put points into the Shared Sight Technique but cannot raise it above your level of True Sight Skill.

For example you have True Sight (the skill) at 15 and no points in Shared Sight (technique). To use Shared Sight you would roll against True Sight (skill) minus five, so that technique has an effective skill of 10.

If you put points into the technique the penalty would drop. Two points in the technique would make the penalty -4, three would make it -3, four would make it -2 and so on.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Right.

Ok.

As Keeh pointed out, you'd check against Will-6 (plus Talent) without the skill. So if you had IQ 10, Will 10, Per 10, Anti-Psi Talent 1, you would want to roll 5 or less to succeed. Doable, hard but doable.

Right.

Kinda.

Shared Sight is a Technique defaulting from True Sight. (Assuming the stats above:) You would check against Will-6 (without skill) +1 (Anti-Psi Talent) -5 (Shared Sight Technique), for a total of 0-. Not going to happen.

(You also pay 2 fatigue for using a psionic technique. Success or failure.)

Now, if you put 4 character points into training True Sight 10- (Will/Hard) and then put 6 character points into training Shared Sight (True Sight) 10- ... you spend your 2 fatigue to activate the psi technique ... and you roll 11 or under (because of the +1 from Anti-Psi Talent 1) to successfully use the technique.

Because you can train up the technique as per GURPS Characters page 230 to get rid of the -5 penalty for using that psi technique. For a more worked example, see above. Per the technique description you can't raise the technique any higher than True Sight, meaning you can only buy off the penalty, not having the Shared Sight technique at a higher level than True Sight, you'll only ever need to pay those 6 points no matter what your True Sight skill is at.

If your Will was high enough, yes. So, Will 20, -6 (True Sight Default) -5 (Shared Sight Technique) +1 (Anti-Psi Talent 1) comes out to 10 or under to succeed. You still pay the 2 fatigue for activating a psi technique.

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Wow! That explains why I couldn't figure out that part correctly. I have not read anything about techniques yet so I guess I need to read about that first before everything makes sense.
Probably after reading about Techniques, I'll come back with some more questions. Thanks a lot to everyone for your help and patience with me! I really appreciate it a lot! :)

Re: Talents vs Psionics
 

Ok, I think I got it now. I read about the Psi Techniques (p. PP8) but I thought it was something specific to Psionic Powers, so I didn't really get the overall idea at the moment. Now, after your valuable feedback, I have found out that Psi Techniques are based on the principles of the Techniques that are mentioned in the Basic Set (p. B229), but (obviously) applied to Psionics. I had seen the Techniques section in the Skills chapter of the Basic Set, but I had not read it, that's why I didn't related Psi Techniques to anything in the Basic Set and thought it was a whole different concept applied only to Psionic Powers. Now everything makes sense (all your comments and the things I am reading in the books) and I think I have really understand how all these Psionic Abilities work. Once again thanks a lot to everybody for your time and patience. I am really glad to see that there are people willing to help a newbie like me without judging and with the best of the intentions and I appreciate that a lot. :)