Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

First, some background.

I've been playing GURPS since 2nd Edition, way back when I was a young lass. My 3rd Edition library is almost 200 books with repeats for those books that were loved so much, they fell a part and couldn't be held in a three ring binder any more. I even have multiple copies of the Basic Set so that I could lend them out when we had game day here at the house.

I am also a late adopter of 4th Edition. Primarily because of time constraints between work, my photography business, and other hobbies, I just haven't had a lot of time for a sit down game.

Until now, we started up a Wednesday night game of high fantasy set in the far future. The characters are all from 1985. Ah, the influence of my childhood. ;)

So reading over the 4th Edition rules, including GURPS Psionics, has left me feeling utterly lost as to how psionics works. I'm sure it's all there, but it's just not clicking for some reason. Perhaps I'm too entrenched in the power controlled by skill paradigm of 3rd Edition.

Would someone help explain it to me?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Going by GURPS Psionic Powers, which I believe you're referencing there ...

• EDIT: The psion purchases a Power Talent.
• The psion purchases a psionic power, which is an advantage that defines what the power actually does.
• The psion then purchases the appropriate Attribute/Hard skill for the power (advantage) purchased above.
• To use the psionic power, the psion must succeed at the Attribute/Hard skill purchased to control the psionic power.

... So, buy Power, buy Skill to control Power, succeed at Skill Check to use power.

Its' all skill-enabled superpowers now. (Except the default magic system. But lets' not go there.)

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

The part that's explicitly Psionics is the Psionic Talents. You are supposed top buy a Psionic talent for every class of Psionic ability that you have.

After that, Psionics are just Advantages like Mind Reading or Telekinesis. You just buy the Ads that fit your Psi power. Gurps Powers has lots of examples and some guidance. The Psionic Powers pdf does a lot of the math for you and guides you toward certain combinations.

I'm not wild about it myself, but that's what there is in 4e.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I'd love to help, but I think it's confusing too, and I'm not sure I get it either. It seems basically like they're trying to remove skill rolls from power usage. Which I find weird.

I just use the 3rd edition rules.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Right, Talents modify your roll from what I can tell, but what exactly are you rolling against?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

In 4e, psi isn't an entirely separate batch of abilities with their own extra-special set of rules. Rather, GURPS has a bunch of generically described advantages (mind-reading, flight, setting fires, healing, flight, etc.), to which certain modifications may be made to reflect that a they're provided by psionic abilities, as oppose to magic or technology (which may have their own special modifications). That is, a character doesn't have, say, "psi healing" so much as she has "healing" with a batch of psi-related limitations and enhancements.

So, then, to be a psi, you start by deciding which advantages you want to have. The Psionics chapter in the Basic Set suggests some groupings of related advantages you may want to buy to play a particular kind of psi. See, for example, "PK Abilities" or "Telepathy Abilities." When you buy advantages off of those lists as psi powers, you need to buy them with the listed -10% limitation, indicating that they're vulnerable to things that limit psionic abilities. Depending on what you and your GM decide on, there may be additional limitations which you will apply to your psi advantages.

You may, but are not required to, buy a Talent related to your bundle of psi abilities. Telepathy talent provides a bonus to the abilities in the telepathy bundle, PK talent to abilities in the PK bundle, and so on. The talent gives a bonus to attribute or skill rolls you need to use your psi abilities.

And what attribute/skill rolls do you need to make? That's where you go back and look at the underlying advantages. Some advantages require specific rolls to activate or use. Some do not. However, unlike earlier editions, there won't necessarily be specific skills associated with each advantage.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Whatever the Advantage you're using says you're rolling against. If using standard-issue Advantages, that'd typically be IQ. If you're using Psionic Powers or a similar Skills for Everyone setup, it's an appropriate IQ/Hard skill. Which one to use with each ability is listed in the writeup.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

IQ mostly. Psionic Powers adds the concept of Skills for Psi. Your level of Talent adds to the IQ roll.

To be honest, the only time I used Psi powers in a 4e campaign I just used the 3e book. It was just simpler and didn't require the same level of general system mastery.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I am not sure what you mean.

GURPS Psionic Powers [edit] has the power controlled by skilled paradigm. It is the same as 3rd [edit] edition apart from the underlying mechanics and the cost of the powers.


If you don't use GURPS Psionic Powers [edit] the roll is most often against Will, Per or IQ (+ Talent)

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Same as any roll. Each psi power has a Hard skill, modified by talent. So you roll adjusted skill, same as the 3E version. RPK wrote Psionic Powers seemingly to duplicate the understandings of 3E Psionics.

Try to look at it this way: buy a Psi Talent, you are at least latent in that ability. Buy powers that are part of that ability, such as TK Grab for Psychokinesis Talent. Buy TK Grab skill as a IQ/H skill. Roll as needed, same as always.

Added as a 4E mechanic are techniques that require FP and a skill penalty, for more fancy tricks.

If GPP is still confusing, go with this: Buy talent to define the ability (ie Psychokinesis Talent), an advantage at the level you wish to have (TK Grab 12), and a skill TK Grab. Don't look at the way psi is built until you are ready for the full impact of modifying advantages in 4E, just use the costs as given, and the text writeups of the abilites.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Do you mean Gurps Psionic Powers? There is no 4e Gurps Psionics.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Generally, IQ. The advantages in GURPS Characters state whether a roll is required (or you can take a limitation to require a roll); by adding the -10% power limitation, you accept some restrictions to the power (can be opposed by "antipsi" powers and technology), but the relevant Power Talent adds to the IQ roll.


Worked example 1: Jane is a telepath. Among her powers is Mind-Reading (Telepathic -10%) [27 points]. She has IQ 12 and the Telepathy Power Talent 2 [10]. Reading someone's thoughts normally requires an IQ roll (p. B69), but her Talent is added to her IQ for the purposes of her Telepathy powers, so she rolls at 14.

Worked example 2: Bob is a telekinetic. Among his powers is Flight (Psychokinetic -10%, Requires IQ roll -10%) [32]. He has IQ 11 and the Psychokinetic Power Talent 4 [20]. Flying is normally automatic, but with the Requires IQ Roll limitation (Powers, p. 112), he needs to make an IQ roll to take off, and an additional roll every minute to stay airborne. However, as his Flight ability is part of the Psychokinesis Power, he adds his Power Talent to his IQ, and rolls at 15.


GURPS Psionic Powers for 4e added "Psionic Skills," which replace attribute rolls for individual abilities. Using these rules, Bob has to learn the skill Levitation (IQ/Hard) and use it instead of IQ for activating his flight ability. Once again, the Talent applies, so 4 points would buy him skill 15. This is a zero-point option for the Psionic Powers rules; on the upside, you can learn your skill with an individual power to high levels relatively cheaply, and use the various fiddly options in Psionic Powers (extra effort, etc.); on the downside, you need to spend 4 points just to reach parity with someone not using the options.

Does this help?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

My understanding is that you do this...

1) Buy the power you want (e.g., Telesend)

2) Buy whatever enhancements and limitations are appropriate for the variation of the power you want

3) Include an appropriate power modifier (e.g., Telepathy, -10%)

4) Buy the appropriate skill (IQ/H). This represents your fine control of your ability.

5) Once you have a skill, the appropriate Talent will modify it (like Magery for spells) and you can purchase special techniques, which default against it.

The good part of all this is that there are rules for fine-tuning psionic abilities. The bad part is that it is a bit more complicated, and you really need to have Psionic Powers as this lists the various skills, techniques, etc.

To avoid this, I imagine that one could simply design different powers that do not use skills. It looks like the default for the main powers (chi, psionic, super, ets.) will be that they use skills. But little-known variant powers might not need them. For example, there is no reason why a world could not have Mind powers along with Psionic powers. Mind powers can be disrupted with countermeasures, etc., so they have a -10% modifier, like psionic, but they do not use skills. This means one can only rely on the raw power of the mind (IQ, Will, etc.). One can use a Talent to improve the overall control, but without skills, there is no fine-tweaking of the abilities, no techniques, etc.

Or, use "Wild" advantages, which do not have power modifiers, etc. However, a wild advantage will have no talents, no skills, no special techniques, etc. It operates "as is" from the Basic Set. Everything would be rolled against IQ, DX, Will, Innate Attack, etc. This would be the case with creatures who have innate abilities like dragons.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I hope this helps.

Mark

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I don't have much to add, the explanations given above have been excellent.

GURPS Psionic Powers uses rules introduced in GURPS Powers. If you haven't read that book, that could be the reason for your confusion.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Minor point...

A few abilities don't use skills, but these are abilities that are totally passive where there is no fine control. For example, hyperspectral vision does not have a skill because you just turn it on and you can see in an extended spectrum. Seeing is not a skill. :)

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Well first of all, GURPS Psionic Powers is there to restore the power controlled by skill paradigm of 3rd edition. Using that supplement, you can buy Telepathy and then the specific skills that let you use different applications of that power like mind control or mental attack pretty much the way you could in 3rd edition. Just ignore the stuff about how it was constructed because that doesn't matter.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I saw a special on british sniper training... and based on that... "seeing" is a skill. Those guys could spot ridiculous things under insane circumstances. It was the trained ability to see things other people would not notice.

And I can see a need for a skill level for hyperspectral vision... it could be your perception value with that particular sense. Just a thought.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

That's the Observation skill ;)

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

That would just be a perception check. You could concievably apply a negative modifier to perception for different types of vision based on how recently a character aquired it, how often they use it, and things like that, I suppose.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

There are a number of ways to approach psionics in 4e, depending on which books you've acquired.

If all you have is the Basic Set, then psionic abilities are just the advantages as written up in the Advantages chapter, with a power modifier added that reflects psi's drawbacks (Using Psi Abilities, p. B255). So a psi would buy Telekinesis with a -10% limitation and it works just as it's written up on p. B92 -- no rolls required. For abilities which do require a roll (such as Mind Control or Warp), you can also buy a power talent which adds to such rolls. This is just an introductory way to use psionics, suitable for folks who just have the basic set or just want something very simple to use.

GURPS Powers introduces many new concepts -- including the Requires (Attribute) Roll limitation which can be added to a trait (for example, thus requiring a roll to use telekinesis, which otherwise doesn't need it), and the mechanic of exchanging a skill roll for an attribute roll (Skills For Everyone, p. P162).

GURPS Powers is a toolkit for designing how powers work. GURPS Psionic Powers demonstrates one way to use this toolkit by presenting a worked example of psionic powers that reflects the author's favorite aspects of 3e psionics. You're free to change how these powers work and GURPS Powers has many discussions of how to do this.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Disclaimer: As the author and an employee, I'm automatically biased in what I'm about to say. Doesn't mean it's not genuine and sincere advice, though.

I'd strongly recommend checking out GURPS Psionic Powers. It was written specifically for both the "I find psi confusing" crowd and the "I liked the power/skill approach of 3e" crowd. It is 100% GURPS/4e, but done in a way that those who used the old psi system seem to understand much better. Every significant ability comes in power levels and has an associated skill -- and if you're skilled enough, you can even learn to bend the rules in fun ways.

Hit e23 and look at the free preview -- or see if your FLGS has a physical copy in stock to flip through.

And if you like it, buy it, and still want something to make psychic character creation even faster and easier, GURPS Psis (a book of templates, "grab-n-go" premade packages of Psionic Powers, and character creation advice) is coming out pretty darn soon.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

One question...if the main powers are all skill-based now, what do we call the skills? We have "official" names for psionic skills, but not for any others.

I suppose, when in doubt, one could simply use the name of the advantage as the name of the skill.

So, Illusion (Mutant, -10%) would simply use Illusion (IQ/H) skill. Control Water 2 (Super, -10%) would use Control (IQ/H) skill. Warp (Chi, -10%) would use Warp skill. And so on. Does this make sense?

And one more minor question...as far as I can tell, the IQ/H skills for abilities that are used for attacks (e.g., Lightning) replace any DX/E Innate Attack skills that might be related to the ability. You don't have to buy both. Is this correct?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

*nod* Pee Kitty did a pretty darn good job of adapting the "feel" of 3e Psi to the newer rules of 4e. My suggestion is: get GURPS Psionic Powers if you haven't already ( http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-0132 ). Go to Chapter 3. (Not 1, not 2, but 3. Go back to the other chapters later, but since you're going from 3ePsi to this, the other chapters may well be more confusing if you start there. Flipping through Chapter 3 should get you feeling comfortable enough to take in the stuff from the prior chapters, betcha.)

Basically, there are now two ways to represent what used to be flat Power from 3e.

1) Talent. If you have the Talent for that Psi Power grouping (telepathy, telekinesis, electrokinesis, anti-psi, etc.) then it's pretty much equivalent to buying 3e's Power 1 with no skill, and the presumption that it's latent. As you gain points and/or the excuse to spend them on psi powers, you buy the actual advantages. It also grants the normal bonus of being a talent, when you do buy the skill.

(E.g., Jane buys Talent 1 for Astral Projection powers, for 5 points. She's a psi! She doesn't need to buy any of the advantages listed there, yet, and that's a good thing, because she's in a "start with 25 points" game with a crazy GM. O:> Later, when she gets more points, she can pick up something else and she'll have a +1 to skill when she finally buys skill in her powers.)

2) Just buy the advantage! While most powers no longer have a flat cost-per-level, there are usually at least a few levels and you can just take which one gives you the power level you want. If you have no skill, this is also pretty much the same as Power X, Skill 0 from 3e.

Ignore the Statistics part. It's for looking under the hood.

(E.g. Joan is in that same crazy 25-point psi game. She buys the first level of Astral Sight, for 6 points. It's an Astral Projection advantage, so she's a psi, too, and can pick up more, later. She doesn't get +1 to any skill she picks up, though, unless she buys Talent later.

Meanwhile, James bats his eyes at the GM and just buys a Perk of Near-Death Projector. The GM figures this counts as a Psionic Power for the power-group, so James is a psi also! He doesn't even need skill! Just to be nearly dead... But he can use that as his excuse to buy more Astral Projection stuff in the future, same as Jane and Joan.)

Skill is bought normally, IQ/Hard. Add the level of your talent to IQ.

[Double-check what it means by "optional" such as in Astral Amor. (I think it means that you can toggle it on and off, and have to have at least some skill to figure out how to turn it on. That's how I'd play it, anyway; Pee Kitty, if that's not what you meant, it needs errata! I can't find anything pertaining to that usage by searching on "optional." O:> )]



Unless I'm totally blanking, the assumption in 4e is that if you have any power from the power-grouping, you have a chance to buy the rest later -- see Joan and James. If you would rather go with something closer to 3e's "figure out if you're a one-trick-pony or if you can do it all within your power-group," use Talent to be the placeholder version for "I can have it all, later" and buy individual powers at their minimum level for the "can only do this one thing" option. At low levels, depending on the power, this can be more expensive for latent psi, so you might want to assign a weaker Talent that only applies to a given power/skill combo, but that's getting into customization and complexity. Suffice it to say, it wouldn't take much to get something that looks a lot like the old 3e system -- though the point costs will be more in line with non-psis doing much the same thing.

...does that help?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

That means that you don't really need the skill, because the ability is passive and never needs rolls for normal use. (Astral Armor, for instance, is just DR. And not switchable DR either. It's completely passive.) But you might want to learn the skill anyway to do tricks with it.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Powers are not necessarily skill-based. It ought to depend on the source, on the advantage, and even on the individual. Magical regeneration can be just regeneration with the magical power modifier (Representing the ability to draw from ambient mana to restore one's body, what I would expect in a magical construct), or it can be regeneration with the magical power modifier, requires words, requires gestures and Requires IQ Roll, switched to requiring an IQ/H skill roll to represent a self healing spell.

For some sources, it makes sense to switch the rolls to skills, but for others, it does not. I personally feel that biological powers, for example, should not use skills, but it's MY interpretation.

As for names, you can name them whatever you want. I prefer to use colorful names for them. If the name is confusing I add the advantage they relate to in parenthesis such as "Odin's Vengeance (Burning Attack)" to represent a lightning bolt.

As for replacing existing skill rolls with new skills, it's worth 0% as long as the replaced skills use the same attribute and the original skill isn't hasder than the new skill. You can thus replace brawling with karate for melee innate attacks. In the case of Psionic Innate Attacks the attack roll is normally Innate Attack (DX/E), but since you can pile up techniques on it, to get extra effects, to maintain consistency with the rest of the Psionic Skills, and to avoid having an activate and an attack roll each round, it was replaced with an Hard Skill, and moved to IQ via an enhancement.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Blah, I know everyone is offering their own version of advice, so let me toss my two cents in.

Psionic Powers (all powers) are really just Advantages with flavor. For example, Mind Control is an Advantage found on page 68. If you want to control someone's mind, you take that Advantage. If you apply a limitation to it called "Psionic, -10%" (though, I think, specifically you'd use "Telepathic Power -10%," but more on that later) then it's now a psionic power. That means people with Anti-Psi can stop it, and so on.

At this point, you can stop. Your character is now psionic. That's all you need.

Psionic powers are a list of appropriate advantages for psionic characters. For example, Telepaths might take Mind Control, Mind Reading, Telesend or Possession, all perfectly normal advantages. Once you apply the limitation to them, they are considered "psionic powers," and follow all the normal psionic rules (again, for example, they can be stopped by an anti-psi).

That's really all there is to it.

As for Talent, you'd take "Telepathy Talent +(whatever)." Let's say +3. If you look at Mind Control, it states:

So you roll your IQ and add your Talent and he rolls his Will. Anytime an advantage associated with your power (Mind Control, Telesend, whatever) calls for a roll, you add your Talent to it.

In the old system, you had power and skill. In the new system, you simulate a powerful psi by spending lots of points on your advantages ("Mind Control with this enhancement and that enhancement and and and") and you simulate a skillful psi by spending lots of points on Talent.

As Rev Pee Kitty mentioned, if you want something that feels more like the old system, go pick up his GURPS Psionic Powers. It's a pretty good book, IMO.

Hope that helps.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Those rules are in GURPS Powers and are useful generically, not just for Psionics.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

That makes lovely sense! Is there a page ref I'm missing for it, though?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Not that I know of, I'm just interpreting from the writeup of Astral Armor on PP26.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Not a direct quote... The meaning of "optional", as it applies to a power skill, is on p78. The uses of that skill (for those that decide to train it) are under Getting Tricky, and include the obvious benefit of using Extra Effort, among others.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

yes well noted. I will edit it too

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Quick clarification: I have GURPS Psionic Powers for 4th edition.

Thank you, everyone. I was not expecting to come home to 4 pages of replies with some really good explanations in there. I think I have I have an understanding.

Thank you!

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Ah-HA! ...I swear, that's an In Nomine Core Rules-worthy placement of explaining a term far after the term shows up. *snicker*

Hooray! (Yeah, it took me a little head-wrapping to figure out how the 4e version worked, too. But I could bug PeeKitty in playtest. *evil grin* Now I feel bad for not noticing the placement of the "optional" thing, though. O:( )

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

It's part of the skill description itself, on p. 26: "optional, used for power defense, psi techniques, etc." In other words, you don't need the skill, but you can buy it anyways to use for Getting Tricky.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

You know, that's obvious when you say it, and I was obviously interpreting it that way subliminally, and now I know why I didn't carp when it was in playtest. For some reason, when I read it the time before this, though... I guess I was somehow interpreting the "used for power defense" as "this is what the power does." And I'm not sure why.

Perhaps I'll go with "I was hopped briefly into another timeline where the text was more confusing." Because that's very weird how I was quite confused then and now it's clear. Maybe I was sick? Huh!

(Still, if you ever felt like making it totally hyperclear even to sick or time-jumped readers, something like "Some abilities are always on; having skill is optional, useful only for getting tricky, etc." in the book might be useful (Ideally on p. 22, but it looks like there's a little more whitespace on p. 5 that could be sacrificed for a sentence.) )

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Well, the psionics book is one of the higher crunch books 4th edition has.

Basically RPK took the existing traits in GURPS that had in his opinion Psionic Basically RPK took the GURPS traits he felt had Psionic potential and systematically modified them using limitations and enhancements and renamed them as distinct new traits complete with level costs.

In some cases a new level added a new ability to the mix. You should read the descriptions closely.

He basically restored 3rd edition's concept that advantages that are consciously used are governed by Skills where the current Basic Set used Attributes.

THEN he brought in techniques (known in 3rd edition as maneuvers) for those new skills.

My suggestion: Step back from the crunch. Build your psi abilities using the Powers book, use Psionics as a guide and it's skill system since you prefer skill operated powers.

It's like learning to eat very hot spicy foods after a decade of not doing so. You have to build up your tongue's resistance to hot. A few 'borrowings' of Psionics built via Powers should get you acclimated to it's crunch.

Welcome back to the Fold!

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Its only high crunch if you go into the nuts and bolts of how to build each ability. If you set that aside, and only deal with prices of the abilities, and their descriptions, you don't have to understand all the crunch. You can play right from that using the Talent/Power/Skill paradigm.

And, if you are familiar with 3E, its a good fit, giving you costs for 4E with the style of 3E.

And when you feel ready to upgrade the designs, the crunch is there to assist you.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Personally, what I really like on Psionic Powers is that it shows the flexibility and power of the system. Personally I feel that GURPS is lacking more books like Psionic Powers, that present the Powers system in bite sized chunks, precooked and ready to eat.

SJG seems to be accepting requests for other Powers PDFs, paterned on Psionic Powers... That's something i might try...

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Yeah I did that too and since it doesn't seem to have been accepted was considering offering part of it for a Pyramid article. Maybe I should write Fox, to confirm that since all the contracts gone out. Regardless I love how Psionic Powers seemed to be a complete waste of money and a valuable book all at the same time.
It took a concept already explained and fleshed it out with examples in a way that made you just slap yourself on the head for not really giving it that much consideration before. There are several things I would like to see get that kind of work over and examination and others have posted similar on the forums.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I'd say that chapters 1 and 2 make it a valuable book whether or not you find chapter 3 useful.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Exactly my point. I even found it useful enough that I bought it twice, PDF and later the softcover.
Yet the head slapping beauty of it is not that its a bunch of new rules but a fleshing out of existing material and in such a way that you still felt you got your moneys worth.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

You do not think the Sample Abilities section from Powers did a good enough job in that regard?
That is too bad. I hope you can get it in print in the other medium.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Thank you, if nothing else I will post it in the forums, though that would be kinda clunky and it would get buried quickly. And an authors credit would be kinda neat. Currently all I have are some educational materials and a few articles in a now defunct local gay newspaper (which I actually was paid for). Though not bad for someone with Dyslexia.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Not really. It did a good job on showing how to BUILD the abilities, but Psionic Powers goes far beyond just building the abilities, and into showing how all the pieces of the Powers framework fit together: it not just presents a big set of pre-built abilities, but also presents a fully worked example of all the options to use, what optionals and source specific extras to add, how to organize them in levels so they can be purchased and improved gradually...

Save for a handful of new enhancements and limitations, everything comes from Powers, but it's not evident

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

You do not have to sell me... I got my copy early!

JK! You mentioned the possibility of a submission yourself... got an idea what source you would work on?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I'll echo Kuroshima's appraisal of Psionic Powers and the worked abilities in Powers.

Even after reading Basic and Powers, I had a feeling that there was more potential to the system than I was appreciating. I found it very valuable for RevPK to use his expertise to offer an example of what GURPS can really do. It has greatly benefited my worldbuilding.

Psionic Powers accelerates the advanced portion of the GURPS learning curve.

If I was Filthy Rich, I'd hire Mr. Levine to write worldbooks for my ideas. : )

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Right now, I'm getting some experience in writing for SJG by doing Pyramid articles (Not a native English speaker) and I must say that using the style guide and the formatting patterns takes some work to get used to. Once I feel confident that I can write up to the standard of SJG, and meet deadlines, I'll check what remains to be done, as before then, it would be vaporware (And being in the software industry, I HATE vaporware)

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I'll Say! You do need to read them a couple of times before you start.

It is a great skill to learn though.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

But from the perspective of a newbie or in this case, someone returning to the game from an earlier edition, the nuts and bolts are the things that leap out at you. It's completely bewildering in most such cases.

Personally, I find Psionic Powers is a level higher or more in crunch than Imbuments, even though Imbuements introduces totally new stuff and Psionic P. largely takes from Powers.

There is nothing akin to "At level X, the power acquires this new trait, increasing it's cost" in Imbuments, just a skill name, it's class of Imbument type and what it does, and maybe wha it does if the user takes a penalty to the skill.

Psi P. is a good book, but it's a book best used by experienced GURPS players.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

And in doing all that, it became a heavier crunch book than Powers itself, which didn't do that. This btw is NOT an attack on Psionic Powers. It's a statement of a simple fact and relevant here by the other simple fact that the OP specifically used Psionic Powers as an example of why she was having trouble getting back into to GURPS.

Finding ways to dilute the crunch or make it easy for the newbie to build up an immunity to it's crunch shock would be good things to do.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I'm not sure if you're using Word, but you can download SJG-WYSIWYG.dot, which you can then load into Word. It is a style sheet. That way the styles (a-head, b-head, text, etc.) are all loaded and you can just select the ones you need as necessary.

The format still takes a bit of getting used to, but the .dot file helps.

Mark

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I agree that overall, GPP was crunch-heavy. However, I also believe that the upramp to that crunch was done well. And remember that there are more types of players than just new or returning interested in GURPS publications. That alone requires many levels in any publication. And is part and parcel of publishing GURPS as an encompassing system, a toolkit.

The issue I think is the layout of the book. (Yet I'd not change it in any way. For me, it works.) It gives the base ability, a description, and then how the author designed the ability, level by level. For a new or returning player, that 3d step is a doozy. And there is where the crunch overwhelms folks. Yet, a disclaimer, or a formal drawing of lines between lighter and heavier rules, would offend some folks. And, do we really want or need two books, creamy and crunchy, for every genre?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I'd just like to note that the beginning of Chapter 3 describes the "crunchy" section thusly:

Statistics: The actual ability build. Those who don't need to modify the ability can skip this section.

There is no reason for anyone to need to look at or understand the Statistics line, for any of the abilities, unless they want to peek under the hood or do some modification. And the text makes this rather explicit.

After all, if you buy Telereceive 2 you just write "Telereceive 2 [36]" with your advantages. You don't write "Mind Reading (Melee Attack, C, -30%; Telepathy, -10%) [18] + Mind Probe (Telepathy, -10%) [18]". And if anyone has been doing that, then You're Doing It Wrong. :)

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

*grumble* <looks for an eraser>

heh

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

This is what I mean. Its plainly written, and IMHO to emphasize it even more could be considered patronizing. There's a wide variety of folks playing GURPS, which means a wide target audience.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I'm using OpenOffice, but it's exactly the same. The word template is MANDATORY noadays, so I had to get used to it. The hardest part was unlearning bad habits (like adding empty lines, or putting spaces at the end of the lines, and when to add half-lines, what styles to use in a box,...)

Another hard thing was getting the right styles and formats for templates, new traits, etc etc. There's a big document by Kromm with the examples, but it took some time to get used to it, and write directly using it, instead of having to go back and revise.

Finally, the actual writing style is also hard to get, specially for someone who is not a native English speaker. SJG prides itself with quality, and so the style guide is rather massive, but in the end, you get it.

Folks, if I could get a Pyramid article published, so can you ;)

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Open Office can read and use .dot files, as well.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Any word processor than can read and write *.doc files can use *.dot ones. The only difference between them is that their names end in different letters. What is inside them is the same.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Unless you want a GM who doesn't have the Psionic Powers supplement to be able to read your character sheet and understand what abilities you've got...

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

With apologies to the reverend, I would nevertheless argue that if this is a case of 'I'm confused about psionics' moreso than 'I want 3rd edition psionics' then, as much as I like Psionic Powers, I would have to recommend Powers as the first book to get.

It adresses pretty much everything you'd want to know about psionics in 4th edition, provides plenty of sample power groups, how to interpret power modifiers, the distinctions between source and power, etc.

Psionic Powers is basically 'just' certain rules found in Powers applied to iron out a pre-packaged skill-based system reminiscient of 3rd edition. Which, if that is what you want, you should go for, but if you are more interested in really understanding how it all works, Powers is definitely in the first tier of books to get. It's as close as you can get to a 3rd Basic Set rulebook.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Dunno if Rev was assuming that the OP already went through Powers or not. I note that he does include a recommendation for Powers in the Introduction. If someone finds the crunch from Powers more confusing in their quest to understand psionics (and there is a lot of material superfluous to that goal in the book), then Psionic Powers can be of help, because its approach is streamlined.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

So, how far does the talent bonus go? E.g., I have TK Talent 2 -- does that give me a bonus to using a normal skill with my TK Grab? (It makes sense to me that it would, but it also has a taste of "too good to be true")

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

The answer to your question is on page 158 of Powers. Sort of. GM judgement calls are a necessity.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

David's answer is right regarding general rules for powers. So if you're using the rules in the Basic Set, or building your own in GURPS Powers, the GM has to make a few judgment calls. If you happen to be using the premade system in GURPS Psionic Powers, it's far more cut-and-dry:

The assumption in Psionic Powers (which, remember, is a worked example of a power, and thus is willing to make specific assumptions -- as opposed to Powers, which has to be generic and universal) is that psionic Talent always adds to your skill. So the bonus is specifically to TK Grab skill, not to any others.

However, this isn't really a drawback, because note that you're allowed to use your TK Grab skill for anything involving TK Grab! If you want, you may substitute an IQ-based version of a more appropriate skill, but you do not then add the bonus from Talent.

EXAMPLE: John has DX 13, IQ 12, Psychokinesis Talent 3, and TK Grab at level 10. Including his Talent, he buys TK Grab (H) IQ+3 [4]-15. He also happens to know Broadsword (A) DX+4 [16]-17. John wants to pick up a sword and swing it at someone. He rolls against TK Grab to pick it up (a 15). When swinging it, he'd rather use his Broadsword skill. This is an IQ-based roll, and it does not get the bonus from Psychokinesis Talent, so he's rolling against IQ+4 or 16 to hit.

John isn't disadvantaged in any way, because if his Broadsword skill sucked or was nonexistent, he could use his TK Grab skill (with the Talent bonus) to attack someone!

(And again: Note that this all applies to the specific build in Psionic Powers. It's one example of a way that a GM might take the generic rules from Powers and turn them into something specific and simple.)

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

WOW.

I had been misreading Psionic Powers all this time, apparently. It would be tempting, knowing this, to just dump points into TK Grab.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

That's the idea! One of my goals when writing Psionic Powers was to focus heavily on the skills, making them as useful as possible. That's more true for some abilities than others, but in the case of TK Grab, it's the subtle use of Based on IQ (as explained on p. 17) that helps justify it.

So yeah, if your GM wouldn't blink at TK Grab 25 and the skill TK Grab-15, he shouldn't blink at TK Grab 15 and the skill TK Grab-25. They're both valid options, and give you a choice between power and control.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Did you need any conversion work? Maybe with 3ed point costs?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

moved to new thread

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Link to the new thread?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=87685

but it's for my healing gun thread

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

3rd ed to 4th ed needs a bit of thought.

What I noticed with the 3rd ed is the umbrella power. Buy x and get abc to go with it. Time to think did a 3rd ed character pick up some skills because they were cheap on the list.

4th ed is simplier, that is it fits with the rest of rules instead of being 'outside of them.

Linking powers will make them cheaper.

Telereceive, Telesend, Mind Reading, Mind Probe, Suggest (Powers), Mind Control, Afflictions (for Mind blow and stab but it can be done alot better without causing damage), also innate attack.

Get used to enhancements and limitations.

Consider malediction but that will bump the price up.

PK is similar too: TK you can lift stuff, even your self, if you want a 3rd ed levitation - choose flight. Remember the range is 10 yards and you may need to increase it to 20, or 50... 100yards is a serious power. Consider Magneto, he has huge TK ST, only metal, big range, big area, super ST (to lift really big stuff) and do multiple tasks. You could be looking at a power that is several hundred points.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Sure there is. In GURPS 4th Edition, the rules for psionics are as follows:

Power Modifier, Limitation, -10%.

(I hope SJ Games won't ban me for leaking information from the core rule books!)

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

So even if the IQ roll is solely due to the "Requires IQ Roll" Limitaiton, Talent may still be added to that roll?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Shapechange/Morph has no skill roll, which has always bothered me a lot. It is also a clear indicator that the GURPS Powers system, with Power Talents, had not been thought of when GURPS Characters was written.

For shapechange powers, though, Power Talent does add to Acting and Disguise rolls, according to the RAW, so there is some benefit from Talent. But it's still bad design to not have a built-in roll required (for IQ or Will), by default, for an actively used Advantage.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

GURPS has Observation for the trained perceptiveness of normal senses.

I've got XenoPerception skills in Sagatafl, to represent characters who have learned to make use of senses not normally available to their species, such as infravision or ultaviolet vision, or infra- or ultrahearing. You could easily add something similar in GURPS, although it's not necessarily the best choice to represent such acquired ability via the game mechanic of Skills.

I think the main problem with exotic senses, senses that your brain is not evolutonarily hardwired to interpret, is to understand them, so it makes sense that there should be some kind of IQ roll (nor PER) involved when you gain a new sense, e.g. via a a temporary spell effect.

A simple mechanic would require an IQ roll for a exotic sense that makes some kind of intuitive sense, such as infravision ("I can see how warm things are") but IQ-3 for exotic senses that doesn't make this kind of intuitive sense (basically ultravision, infrahearing, ultrahearing, and most other such things).

Then, allow a series of levelled Perks to give bonuses to these rolls, with the "epitomal" Perk removing the need for a roll entirely. You should probably have about 2 Perks per merely exotic sense, and 3 Perks per weird sense (arguably, weird senes aren't weird to someone with sufficient understanding of physics, but I tend to look at things from a medieval perspective).

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Now that I know the psi powers work like that I think im not gonna change for 4e anytime soon, so confortable with my house ruled 3e, feels like 4e would basically cause more trouble than its worth, not mentioning the moneraty costs =/

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Thats too bad. 4e is a lot cleaner all around.
3e bundled a lot of things and it made for some convoluted builds trying to work out new advantages or work with limited versions.
Combat has more options as well.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

Can you sum those ? I dont know the specifics, I know PD is less OPed to active defenses, I wanted to know more about that, atm its the only thing that seems kinda unbalanced.

But I dont really have a problem with lots of stuff.
I use ST as HP and HT as fatigue, I use will as a separate atribute, and many house rules regarding psionics, such as aura being a esp skill, and healing being a biopsionics skill, I suppose it could easily be done in 4e, since its main purpose is to be modular, but what exacly are the advantages ?

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I know I was a hold out on embracing 4th ed. as well. But eventually after sitting down to read it, I realized that it fixed a number of issue I didn't like and made things better that I hadn't realized needed fixing. It's much cleaner and unified; exactly what I want Gurps to be.
Not perfect of course, but all around better than 3rd ed.

But no one will denigrate those that prefer the older version. The purpose of the game is to have fun after all.

Re: Psionics in 4th Ed: I'm not getting it...
 

I agree with both statements.
I hesitated on 4E also, big expense buying those core books and I had a LOT of 3e material. Pretty much bought everything that ever came out for 3e but after a move where I lost almost all my gaming materials in a box that just vanished I started over with 4e.
A few things still trip me up as I think of the 3e rules but the change was very positive IMHO.