metal shields
 

Basic has iron shields. Double weight and cost and HP, +3 DR.

Dungeon Fantasy calls them dwarven shields, and also adds +1 to their shield bash damage. Cumulative with +1 for a spike if you have one.

Martial Arts says that you can sharpen the edge of a metal shield and use it for swing-2 cutting damage.

So if you're using both DF and MA, and you sharpen the edge of a dwarven shield, does that swing-2 cutting damage get +1 for bashing with a dwarven shield? Or does only the traditional crushing kind of shield bash get +1 from a dwarven shield?

Also, if a metal shield has both a sharp edge and a spike, and you hit with the edge for cutting damage, do you get +1 for the spike? (I think the answer to this one is obvious, but I figured I'd ask it just for completeness.)

Thanks.

Re: metal shields
 

I'd rule you could bash at sw-1 with the edge.

No. You're correct, the answer is obvious. ;-)

Re: metal shields
 

I disagree. The +1 appears to arise from the fact that the shield's made of metal. The Martial Arts optional rule stipulates that this must be done with a metal shield. So just the Swing-2 for my vote.

Re: metal shields
 

On a tangent, what effect does other metals have on shield? For example: Bronze, TL3/4 Steel, higher-quality TL5/6 Steel, or TL7+ Titanium Steel alloy?

This isn't counting the thick aluminum garbage can lid as an improvised buckler...

Re: metal shields
 

Can't answer the rest, but bronze is like iron, but costs about 4 times as much (The ratio varies with period and region, like any other price, but Low Tech is suggesting a generic 4x).

Note that the weird Basic Set idea that bronze is softer somehow than iron (it isn't) is also corrected in Low Tech.

Re: metal shields
 

And Orichalcum is 1/3 the weight of bronze, so Orichalcum shields weigh 2/3rds as much as normal (x2 for metal, 1/3 for orichalcum).

Re: metal shields
 

are you reffering to Tin Bronze (Tin and Copper) or Arsenic bronze (Arsenic and Copper)

Arsenic Bronze on has a slight edge and some time a loss to wrought iron on the Vickers hardness, but Tin Bronze is less toxic and Definitely superior in hardness. but Tin and Copper is really found together out side of South East Asia.

But Neither form of Bronze compares in strength pf Steel.

Re: metal shields
 

Is there a point where the weight makes the shield unbalanced or unable to be used offensively? Metal shields are pretty heavey once they get past a certain size and overly heavey shields can be restrictive in their use.

Re: metal shields
 

Ah, then I retract my earlier statement.

Re: metal shields
 

Not officially. Unofficially I use BLx2 as a (generous) rule, based on the One Handed Lift value.

I also use lighter base weights for shields though, the existing ones are a bit crazy.

Re: metal shields
 

I don't know the exact numbers, but I ran across TL5/TL6 Steel and Titanium Steel alternatives (if memory serves, Titanium gives the same DR for 1/3rd the weight. The cost was substantially more). Both were listed (as I recall) in GURPS High-Tech, 4th Edition. I don't remember where, but it was one of those inset boxes. Just ran across it the other day.

It was listed as armor that modern reenactors might be able to have made by TL. But I would certainly see this as being appropriate techniques available to low-tech cultures with access to the Magic tables. :)

Good luck!

-P.

Re: metal shields
 

Tin bronze. Tin and copper may be rarely (I think that's what you meant) found "together" NOW, but there's a LOT of tin in the british isles, and lots of historical tin mines in Europe and north Africa which have been mined out for hundreds (and sometimes literally thousands) of years. You don't need tin and copper to be in the same place, just enough societal advancement that you can get them to the same place.

There's no coincidence the start of the Bronze Age and the rise of large agricultural societies are largely congruent.

Didn't mention steel, deliberately, because afaik the line between "steel" and "iron" in low-tech hand-forged arms and armor is nebulous at best. "iron" is an obnoxiously imprecise word in common English.

Speaking of another obnoxiously imprecise word: what do you mean by strength?

Re: metal shields
 

Roughly speaking, it takes a rather robust organization to operate mines, caravans, shipyards, and merchant fleets. Not to mention the military it may take to secure the production and/or passage.

Alternately, you could hire out (the Phoenicians were the go-to guys for tin in the Med), but that just means a robust organization to get a surplus of something someone might accept in trade.

Re: metal shields
 

That does seem very generious, you're almost getting into D&D weights.

Does anyone have historical examples of metal shields and how much they weigh?

Re: metal shields
 

I should probably go with BL flat up with my reduced shield weights, but 2x BL is basically necessary for normal men to use metal shields with the Basic Set weights.

Re: metal shields
 

You could always have gradients of use measured in weight intervals. At the first interval the shield is used in all the ways a shiled can be, at the second wieght interval the shield becomes unbalanceda at the third interval the shield can only be used to Block or as cover for example. I am wondering what shield rules you use.

Re: metal shields
 

This implies that arsenic was intentionally added to copper. This has been shown not to be the case. Examination of local ore deposits in Africa and their associated smelted products indicate that the level of arsenic that is present in excavated artefacts corresponds to the natural level of arsenic in the ores that were used. In other words the smiths just smelted everything "green" that they could find and used the best results for making tools and weapons. It is a coincidence that the best alloys happened to contain arsenic. The first man-made bronze is still tin-copper.

Re: metal shields
 

They weigh the same or even less than a similarly-sized shield that was made of wood/leather. That is the whole point of using metal for protection. It weighs less than any other available material that offers similar protection.

Here are three examples: Iranian Qajar round shields made of steel:
1) weighs 2620g and has a diameter of 51.5cm.
2) 2270g, 39.5cm
3) 1960g, 39cm

Similar shields made of rhino hide with metal bosses:
1) 1880g, 51cm
2) 4500g, 61.5cm
3) 3270g, 51cm.

The problem is that we don't know the thickness and so cannot guess the DR. Obviously any metallic shield that weighs the same as a similarly-sized hide shield will have higher DR and HP.

Re: metal shields
 

To elaborate on your point Similarly Size refers to protection area, if they were the same volume, they would be heavier. But metal's strength is such it can be done with less material hence lighter, rather metal it self is lighter. (though some are)

Re: metal shields
 

Which was never done. A typical wooden and hide shield would be at least 5 times thicker than an equivalent metallic shield.

Re: metal shields
 

OK - I am doing some thread hi-jacking here.
If Orichalcum weighs 1/3 of metal (for the same amount of protection), then it cannot suddenly weigh 2/3 because it is metal.

I know that DF1 says that Orichalcum shield weighs 2/3 of a normal shield.

But Orichalcum already weighs 1/3 of normal metal. So you cannot put in another *2 modifier in there.

I think you want that *2 modifier to come along because metal shields weigh twice as much as wood. But wood has never entered the equation here.
So following that logic Orichalcum shields should only weigh 1/3 of a normal metal shield.

Does anyone know (or can figure out) why an Orichalcum shield is so heavy? (Orichalcum armor follows the above mentioned rule of 1/3 weight but same DR).
It seems there is a breech in consistency there.
(Also, I believe this has been discussed before but I could not find the relevant thread)

Re: metal shields
 

Textbox: High Tech Low Tech p.65 of Gurps High Tech 4e.

The titanium option is in line with the modern steel choice of 2x DR at the same weight or same DR at half weight. I'd assume you could have titanium at 2x DR for 2/3rds weight.

Technically the weight ration of titanium to iron/steel is about 0.60. DR is the same as modern steel (RHA) for equivalent thickness.

Re: metal shields
 

An orichalcum shield does weigh 1/3 as much as a normal metal shield, but the default shield is wood, not metal. Since metal shields are twice the weight, an orichalcum shield is 1/3 of that.Orichalcum armor is for items that are already metal (really that are already bronze), so there's no need to double the weight for changing from wood to metal.

Re: metal shields
 

Normal shields are wood. Metal shields weigh twice as much as wood shields. Orichalcum shields weigh 1/3 as much as metal shields.

Boring old algebraic properties say that orichalcum shields weigh 2/3rds as much as (normal) wood shields.

Re: metal shields
 

Yes. Somehow my fractions got inverted.
Weight is 2/3 of a wooden shield. I see it now.