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-   -   Soldierly Honesty (and spies) (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=65112)

David Johnston2 12-11-2009 06:40 PM

Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jason taylor (Post 896569)
Of course soldiers invading a country do not consider themselves bound by the laws of that country either. Yet soldiers can be honest.

Soldiers invading another country bring their country's rules with them. NOC agents on the other hand, obey neither their country's laws nor those of the country they are operating in.

Lord Carnifex 12-11-2009 06:52 PM

Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
Depending on the exact setting, spies being run by a higher agency - CIA, MI6, or whatever - at TL6+ may have a set of rules they're supposed to follow. The Vienna protocols, Presidential Executive Orders, or 'company policy'. I would imagine that an Honest spy would follows those rules and never go rogue.

Ragitsu 12-11-2009 06:56 PM

Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
Wait, what is the question (if any)?

jason taylor 12-11-2009 06:57 PM

Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragitsu (Post 896746)
Wait, what is the question (if any)?

Can spies be honest in Gurps terms?

jason taylor 12-11-2009 07:01 PM

Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
Then there are spies in a civil war. Benedict Arnold cannot be honest as he pledged himself to the rebel government, which from his point of view was the law. John Andre might have been if it wasn't for the fact that he was being insubordinate by going without uniform contrary to orders as he could not possibly be expected to recognize the Continental Congress.

jason taylor 12-11-2009 07:10 PM

Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex (Post 896738)
Depending on the exact setting, spies being run by a higher agency - CIA, MI6, or whatever - at TL6+ may have a set of rules they're supposed to follow. The Vienna protocols, Presidential Executive Orders, or 'company policy'. I would imagine that an Honest spy would follows those rules and never go rogue.

That is a good suggestion.

LemmingLord 12-11-2009 07:40 PM

Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jason taylor (Post 896748)
Can spies be honest in Gurps terms?

Interesting question. My first thought is absolutely not. Espionage is, by definition, stealing... and stealing is against the law in the country you are in (where you are stealing the information from).

Spies are spies because they are willing to break the laws of countries for the "greater good" of their own country (or for other incentives I suppose).

SuedodeuS 12-11-2009 07:51 PM

Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
A spy is breaking the laws of the country he's in, but that's OK, as this is a hostile country to his own. Unfortunately, the very laws he is breaking also exist (in most cases) in his home country. He's also breaking international law if I'm not mistaken, which is something an Honest soldier is beholden to.

All told, I'd say a character with GURPS Honesty would generally not be able to be a spy, unless he were from a country with very odd laws. Alternatively, if he managed to do completely legal spying (the kind that wouldn't lead to justified incarceration in his home country), he could get away with it - but he probably wouldn't be able to get very good information!
If the campaign took place primarily in the enemy country, then unless his actions are also legal there he would probably have to take some sort of Accessibility modifier for his Honesty.

EDIT: Of course, if the character believes that what he's doing is legal in his own country, this could also work. Honesty should definitely be discounted in this case, and suffering from Delusion (but not getting points for it) would be justified.

cmdicely 12-11-2009 08:12 PM

Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2 (Post 896729)
NOC agents on the other hand, obey neither their country's laws nor those of the country they are operating in.

NOC agents may obey their own country's laws, but may have special status under them (while acting within the scope of their assignment) such that this is a fairly insignificant restriction even if it is rigidly adhered to.

cmdicely 12-11-2009 08:14 PM

Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS (Post 896778)
A spy is breaking the laws of the country he's in, but that's OK, as this is a hostile country to his own. Unfortunately, the very laws he is breaking also exist (in most cases) in his home country. He's also breaking international law if I'm not mistaken, which is something an Honest soldier is beholden to.

A spy might break international law, but espionage itself is not, per se, a violation of international law. (Spies are outside the scope of special international protections which apply to, e.g., regular soldiers in a war, but that's not the same as breaking international law.)


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