[Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Greetings, all!

Reading Gun Fu, the Army of One Perk seems to be waaaay too useful. It basically increases a person firepower twofold, and seems to be very good for Gunslingers due to the full Acc with one-handed weapons.

More importantly, it doesn't compare with Mêlée, where being able to wield a two-hander requires lots of extra ST.

Opinions?

Thanks in advance!

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

All I can say is:

Rambo : First Blood
Rambo : First Blood II
Rambo III
Rambo

;)))

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

I don't think I would consider a two-handed weapon wielded one-handed via Army of One as a genuinely one-handed weapon. A rifle is a rifle is a rifle, even if you have a perk that lets you wield it with one hand. You can't start whipping it around like a pistol just because you took Army of One.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

I don't have Gun Fu, but don't the rules already cover wielding two-handed weapons one handed? You just need ridiculous levels of ST and the huge weapons perk to make it practical with most of them.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

The Army Of One perk allows to ditch this rule, and just wield it one-handed instead. MinST stays the same, but the special daggers are effectively removed.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Does the word "Cinematic" clear things up for you? How about "intentionally over-the-top"?
</sarc>

In all seriousness, the idea of Gun Fu being "balanced" relative to the bulk of the rest of GURPS just doesn't compute for me. It's supposed to be "wahoo!" crazy stuff.

If "it" doesn't fit whatever campaign you're planning, don't use "it", for any value of "it" found in any official published GURPS material. The GM is always assumed to be a factor (and an actor) in balancing the game.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

I don't agree. A perk is a perk, whether you're in a cinematic game or a realistic game. The game should be balanced. "Cinematic" just means you can do stuff that realistic characters can't, not that a 100 point cinematic character > a 100 point realistic character. Moreover, even if this wasn't the case, one cinematic advantage should balance with another cinematic advantage, and so Army of One should, in the very least, balance with the other perks in Gun Fu.

However, it seems to me that the intention of Army of One is to simply allow you to wield a two-handed, heavy weapon with one hand, ignoring the two-handed requirement. That's not really much of an advantage, except as Molokh points out that it creates an undue synergy with Gunslinger, and that might be worth a mention in an errata.

In regards to melee: wielding a big, two-handed weapon allows you to wield a shield in your off-hand. No such real advantage exists in gun-play, however, so I don't think comparing Army of One to similar melee perks is like comparing apples to oranges. Melee and ranged combat use very different assumptions, and even different rules in some cases (like All-Out Attacks)

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

It's more important that it creates synergy with DWA and some acrobatic tricks, as well as Driving and similar skills. And the fact that it doesn't compare with Huge Weapons.

It's effectively Extra Hand, Weapon Mount -80%, Force Extension +50%, No Signature +20%, Doesn't require modified equipment to mount +??%.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

So it effectively doubles your strength for the specific purpose of meeting ST requirements for handling a long arm one handed?

I can see that having a nasty synergy with off-hand weapon training and dual-weapon attack. Especially when the character has a couple of light machine guns. It's also a lot cheaper than buying two weapon mounts, which would be the usual way of being able to handle two double-handed weapons.

A more balanced version might be something like 'you can use a two handed firearm in one hand if you meet it's minimum ST requirements, but it becomes unready after you attack with it, unless you have at least 1.5 times the listed ST'. That lets ST 15-17 big guys handle shotguns, SMGs and rifles one handed without penalty, but restricts the more ridiculous dual wielding to those with ST 20+.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

[QUOTE=Molokh;878189]Which is the intention of the perk.

Irrelevant. Melee != Ranged. Ranged combat has no real analog to Focused Fury either, but I don't see you complaining.

Over-analysis.

There's a strong cinematic tradition for strong heroes wielding big guns casually and with one hand. Moreover, it's a very minor advantage, all things considered. Just because you can construct an advantage an alternate, more expensive way, doesn't mean that the cheaper way is "overpowered."

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

QFT.

Remember, when the book was written, the authors sat down and watched movies. To paraphrase Neo, "LOTS of movies."

If you saw it in a film and couldn't do it by the regular rules, typically it got a Perk. One Many Army is such a thing. Sly and Arnold and Jesse can wield stupidly powerful weaponry, either at all (the M134 minigun that was "Old Painless"; even the XM214 5.56x45mm '6-pak' had 90lbs of recoil force) or in one hand (Sly's repeated use of M60s, and Arnolds wielding one in each hand of a railgun that supposedly fired projectiles at the speed of light in Eraser).

To do this, you need to violate RAW. So be it. Perk.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

On 2nd thought he is right.

It should be advantage and not Perk.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

In my mind Army of One is simply off-hand weapon training for heavy guns. The gunslinger advantage already gives the other stuff.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Only (a) you don't need to violate RAW, there already exist rules for wielding those weapons one-handed, and (b) not all violations of RAW should be perks.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Partially. It allows one-handed use of two-handed heavy weapons, not off-hand use. You'd have to take OHWT to use in the off hand without penalty, and DWA if using 2 at once.

I'd personally adjust the required ST based, as cinematic heroes using this ability would generally have excess ST compared to the base requirement. However, it isn't necessary, as the ST needed is enough to lift the weapon, and the perk implies at least one other form of bracing (hipshooting).

Also, if it seems overpowering, simply change the emphasis related to one-handed vs two-handed use. Frex, it's still a two-handed weapon, so Gunslinger still treats it as such.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

This perk is merely a way to leverage the large buy-in of Gunslinger. If you want to be a Gunslinger and have your thing be big, heavy weapons . . . you can, and you don't have to shovel in too many more points after the 25 you paid for Gunslinger. Using two such weapons effectively still means having OHWT and DWA with your skill of choice, for another 6 points.

And of course you still need the base ST, which is high for the most potent weapons. Not to mention enough ST to lug the things unencumbered. You won't be doing much gun fu with two M60s and ST 10. You need ST 12 to exploit the perk, and then you're carrying 59.2 lbs. of machine guns, which puts you at Medium encumbrance (60% of your Basic Move, -2 to Dodge) even if you're otherwise naked.

We looked at all the stuff you'd actually need to be any good at this and decided, "Yeah, 25 points in Gunslinger is enough of a premium to make it fair to let high ST, a couple of perks, and a maxed-out technique be especially effective in an over-the-top campaign."

Oh, and you can fire a lot of these weapons one-handed with a sufficiently good sling anyway. That might set you back 0 points and $100-$200. And that's not cinematic, especially, just a stupidly heavy and expensive way to outfit a single man.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Note that this applies to the weapon's basic hands requirement, before special perks or whatever. A heavy weapon with a † (two-handed) mark on ST still counts as a two-handed weapon for Acc purposes. Also, automatic fire never gets full Acc – that's for single shots – so the best candidates for this perk, which are LMGs and GPMGs, aren't especially useful here. Nearly all such weapons have a ! note on RoF, which means that they can't fire single shots.

This isn't, in fact, important at all. In melee combat, you're providing the damage yourself, with your own ST. In firearms combat, the gun is providing it. Put 5 points in High TL and get a future weapon, or just bring a big satchel explosive, and you can get as much damage as you want, really. The fact is, GURPS makes huge firearms damage more a $ and LC thing than a points thing; if you can afford the weapon, and the GM isn't restricting you to LC2+ guns, then ST doesn't hold you back much.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

My point was that for one point you get a similar effect to the OHWT. I know how the penalties work...

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Hmmm? Really? I thought RoF greater than one is pretty much a side effect, at least for the first round of firing.

Am I conceiving it wrong? Pull out M60 with one hand, Aim, then let loose at RoF10, and I get skill plus Acc plus RoF bonuses, less applicable penalties...

The second turn, you've disrupted your aim, so I lose Acc, but all else still applies.

No?

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

It's part of the special rules for gunslinger, not the general rules for aimed fire.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Ah. Good.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Wait, where?

Edit: somehow it slipped out of my mind. Found it.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Basic Set: Characters

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Wow, how could I forget it. That's me not playing multishotters.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Is this also true if you have Gunslinger and can use the weapon one handed just by virtue of a very high Strength, ST 24 in this case?

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Yes, it is. If the gun has the little "two-handed" symbol by it, Gunslingers get half Acc (with single-shots) for free, or full Acc if they Aim for a turn. It's the weapon itself that matters, not how you wield it.

Re: [Gun Fu] Army of One overpowered?
 

Yep. "Full Acc, all the time" is expressly for purpose-built pistols, which are designed as extensions of your hand and not kludged to kinda fit in one hand.