Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

I'm tired of responding to ill-spirited sniping like that.

If you can't carry on a discussion without taking shots at me, then welcome to my ignore list.

Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

Attentive is not universally beneficial. Sure, you get a +1 when working on lengthy tasks, but it comes with a -3 penalty to any chance to notice an important interruption (like when the bad guys come into the lab you are working in and you aught to duck!), so using Attentive in this argument is fallacious.

Same with Broadminded simply because it is a contract with the GM that the player makes.... "If I don't do X often enough to satisfy you, you can dock me XP for not RPing my character properly." This is similar to but different then the contract that you make taking High Heeled Heroine which reads "I've spend this point so you can't make me fail to look cool and stylish in my steletto heels".

I agree that attacks on character should be kept out of discussions.

Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

I note that the description does not say 'all', nor does it say 'as well as'. It's vague, but it's beneficial, so it should not be a Quirk. I think conceptually the described benefits would make an okay perk, but would do well to be written more specifically.

That's you'd think it should do, bearing in mind that it's supposed to be less bothersome than Xenophilia. I suppose in a future edition the text could be amended to reflect this better approach.

Well, the concept of Xenophilia does not require Gullibility. You are required to be attracted to their strangeness, but there is no requirement to ignore clear danger signals.

Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

We have already touched on Attentive in this discussion. It appears to be a scaled down version of Single-minded, which is an Advantage offering +3 and -5. If that is a 5 point advantage, it makes no sense that something the same but just lesser should convert to a GIVING you points.

So it's not fallacious at all.

Except that's not supported by the descriptive text of this trait.

Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

It really seems like you're not so much interested in how the quirk is supposed to work, so much as interested in winning an argument about semantics on the internet. The example I gave was not a "house rule," it was an example of how the traits in question are intended to behave in-play, without some rules-lawyering semantic arguments. I certainly can't claim to be able to peer into the minds of the people at SJGames, yet considering the vast amount of context, I still feel quite confident in saying that it is not intended to work the way you are interpreting it.

If you think the example I gave is not a good example of how the various levels of Xenophilia (Including Broad-Minded) are supposed to be played, maybe you should give an example of your own? Guy walks into a bar, sees a freaky tentacled alien monstrosity sitting at the bar, and nobody else is there. How do Mr Xenophilia, Mr Broad-Minded, and Mr Joe-Normal react?

Also:

You didn't answer the question, though. Which of those ways do you think Broad-Minded is intended to work in 4e?

And I find it completely absurd that Attentive would be considered a "beneficial" quirk in the adventurer style that the rules were primarily designed for. An Attentive catburgler will be unlikely to notice guards on patrol while he's trying to crack the safe. A warrior doing maintenance on his weapons is so focused on getting the blade perfect that he'd be unlikely to notice someone sneaking up on the camp. The soldier doing first-aid on a badly-injured buddy probably doesn't notice the enemy soldier coming up to the doorway beside him and leveling his weapon, and certainly doesn't hear him before that. It even gets annoying enough in real-life. Picture the person so focused on texting on their cellphone that they could easily miss you addressing them loudly, by name, not 5 feet away.

Getting a +1 bonus to long tasks (Which generally, is not that big of a deal anyway) is only nice until it gets you stabbed in the back. Suffering a full -3 to all perception rolls any time you try to do something longer than a couple seconds is bad for your survival.

Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

That's exactly right, it is not in the descriptive text of the trait... because it doesn't have to be. It is expressly explained in the introductory text about mental quirks on p162 (providing a quote...)

Since they put that text there, why would they need to duplicate it in every mental quirk? That's why they put it in the introductory text...

Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

Pretty sure the difference between Single-Minded and Attentive (Which, as an asside, could probably do to have their names reversed for clarity) is that with Single-Minded, you can choose to focus exclusively on something, while with Attentive, you have to focus. That's a huge difference.

Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

No, I don't know where you get that idea. It seems kind of opposite to what I've been saying. I suggest you have a quick re-read of the thread.


Exactly. You need to direct this question to certain other interlocutors on this thread.

1. Note that your example shows a character being selected because of the presumed BENEFITS of Broadmindedness, i.e. the facets that I suggess preclude it from being a Quirk.

2. It's odd that the character displays a "lack of Broadmindedness" (in that he doesn't get along with strangers and he reacts badly to their funny looks) even though the trait clearly excuses him from this problem. Why would he do that?


If you read the description, you will actually see that rather than merely saying what the character tends to do, it prescribes outcomes -- you get along with other and you are not too troubled if they look strange. These are written as beneficial rather than limiting, so the trait should not be considered a Quirk.

It provides no mechanic.

To the extent it can be seen to restrict behaviour (the text doesn't really go very far in this direction), it restricts to behaviour that is only beneficial. It's like saying making a quirk that says you don't like shooting yourself in the foot -- not a real problem.


The behaviour defined in those quirks it not inately beneficial to the character, and they don't indicate outcomes the way Broadminded does, and they don't include any minor exemption kneejerk reactions like the description of Broadminded does.

Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

I don't really think it's that much of a difference, for two reasons -- first, it's not clear from the text that engaging Single-minded is optional (though that's how I would rule it). Second, you have a defacto option with Attentive anyway, simply by choosing not embarking on that kind of task at inconvenient times.

Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?
 

Which limits when and where you perform long tasks. That's still disadvantageous compared to an un-quirked character.