Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Most of us have been down this road. A good action hero is only as good as his emergency weapon in any genre. The first one always gets knocked out of his hand and kicked across the floor somehow.

I've dabbled in Crossbows, Knives, Hatchets, and sometimes a whole 'nother sword. But I can't seem to find one I like.

Sometimes you need to help out a friend while you're engaged in your own fight. One such event happened to me in a recent game where I played a ranger.

Assassins broke into our room after poisoning us with room service. The cleric goes down, but the ward and I are up and rearing to defend. A woman and an old man (possibly wizardly) break in. I'm trying to rack up the kill count as fast as I can now. I'm going toe-to-toe with the femme and she's getting stomped. My friend is having less luck so I pull out a knife on my turn to even the odds. I give it a good toss and to cut things short: it does crap, against an old man, an old man who isn't wearing much better than cloth armor. The words uttered "What kind of a ranger are you?" In jest out-of-game at the proceeding moment got me thinking...

Knives suck. Whats a good off-hand ranged weapon suitable for aiding friends having bad luck with the dice? It needs to be small, capable of practical holdout rolls, legal in most typical fantasy settings (dont ask me 'well it depends on your setting.' Have some imagination will ya? Guy walks into the inn in full plate armor for god's sake) and easily useable indoors.

Bonus points if I can use Gizmo on it.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

I can't vouch for the effectiveness of any of these ideas; they're just ideas.

1. Rocks
2. Boomerang
3. Sai
4. Shuriken
5. a wineskin full of lamp oil and a torch

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Long Knife FTW

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

A katar? Decent damage and bonus against chinks.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Well, a melee weapon small enough to carry all the time, that won't get the city guard's attention just isn't going to be very effective.

I'd have to agree with sir_pudding, and suggest something in the knife family, depending largely on how much you want to be able to throw it.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

If you don't mind sinking a few points into it, a decent karate skill, the kick technique and a pair of heavy boots will give you a fairly good attack which doesn't require fast draw or holdout skills. Alternatively, get grappling skills and don't worry about damage.

Knives are probably the most common backup weapons, because they are easy to conceal, can be used in close combat (when you often need a backup weapon), can be used with fast draw and can be thrown. If you are willing to sacrifice the throwning and you have martial arts you could consider the kukri, which gets +1 swinging damage over the large knife and a better parry or the katar which gives you better thrusting damage, a better parry and the ability to target chinks in armour with a reduced penalty.

Nunchaku are easy to conceal and do a fair amount of damage for a small weapon, although it's crushing and they can't be used to parry when attacking, can't be thrown, can't be fast drawn and don't work well in close combat. A bola perdida (in martial arts) has a little less damage and is even worse on defence, but can be thrown.

Consider a weighted cloak, especially if you don't use a shield. They give you a defence bonus and let you grapple at reach 1, although you will need something else to actually do any damage.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

A .45. That being said, hatchets and small axes can be thrown too, and get Swing damage IIRC. The thing is that there really isn't any such weapon at low tech levels, that's why pistols were so popular among those who could afford them as son as they were available.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Sorry, no. I tend to play massively strong barbarians who have lots of muscle to plug in to the "muscle-powered" part of "muscle powered weapons". Rognor the Illegible one slaughtered two dopplegangers with a steak knife and laughed while he did it. Rognor did tend to worry some people.

Or weapon masters who get lots of bonus pts of damage and can use Targeted Attacks easily. Or even massively strong weapon masters.

You're just not going to get that much out of any weapon in Gurps unless you invest something in it.

If you don't have the CP to put into ST and WM at least put some $ into the weapon. Knives are only $40 and Fine ones are only $160. VF is only $800. That's less than some average quality swords.

Then there's (probably) magic. If you want a weapon for Throwing only most Enchantments for individual Missiles or ammunition are 1/10th cost.

Do look into spending CP too. You can put 3 cp into TA(Vitals) for Thrown Knife and make those sort of attacks at only -1.

Or maybe it's not Vitals you want to aim at. Hands are not armored as often and easily crippled.

Whatever you end up doing for a satisfactory solution you can bet it's not going to be as simple as making a different choice from the weapons tables.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Hatchets or Throwing Axes are good. I prefer knives though. More elegant weapon

I'm not entirely clear on what happened here, but I assume the old man was the enemy target and NOT your friend. First read I thought you were tossing the knife to your buddy and managed to skewer him!

You need Weapon Master (Knife) and/or Targeted Attack. TA should specify some vulnerable area like neck or vitals. BTW, if you are throwing with your off hand you will take a penalty so you need to offset that some way (Off hand training, Ambidextrous, etc.).

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

I was in a campaign with a guy who used twin shortswords and only had ST 10. He only did 1d with each sword, so he took hit location (neck) and dual weapon attack. If he hit you with that combo you went down unless you had significant armor on the neck (uncommon in fantasy armor since its hard to make comfortable neck armor that allows your head free movement). Long knives give you almost the same bang for the buck as shortswords. I'd say a long knife and some points in targeted attack (chinks in armor) and targeted attack (vitals) or (neck) would be worth it. Also, slashing at veins and arteries (additional -2, I believe) ups the damage factor significantly. With a weak weapon that does impaling or cutting it's important to go for targets that increase the damage multiplier.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

I agree. I play a very strong dwarf right now IMC. His favorite weapon is an Axe/Pick combo weapon. When he gets that critical miss, or his enemy gets the critical success on his defense, and the result comes up "drop your weapon" (which it most often does), he'll draw his Dwarven quality Flail. Next is his Hammer/Pick combo. Then his hatchet. Then his other hatchet. Never (yet) had to go past weapon #3 in a single combat though. His undroppable backup is the Large Spiked Metal Shield with a sharpened edge. :-)

However, to nitpick:
You can't have a VF knife, RAW. Swords and fencing weapons only. +2 dmg is huge for something with such a low base damage.

That price is for weapons that are only missiles. No GM in his right mind would let you use that number for a weapon that is only optionally a missile. After all, any weapon can be thrown....

Sorry. TA is for melee attacks only, not missiles. But your idea is correct--this character just needs the skill to hit more vulnerable (less armored) locations.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Well, I'm biased in that I tend to think that it's unrealistic for a warrior to be very skilled with one weapon and worthless with others. So I tend to encourage players to take many weapon skills, especially if they're playing warrior types (which an action hero certainly is).

As a result, the characters in my campaigns have more than backup weapons, they have tertiary, quartary and quinary weapons as well. A few examples:

A ranger who is an exiled knight carries an arming sword as his primary weapon, but wears a small axe, large knife and a hatchet as well. He owns a shield, but rarely uses it and can fight with spear and lance if he has to. He also carries a bow for long distance engagements. His skill with all of the above weapons ranges from DX+2 to DX+5.

A self-proclaimed merchant with an unsavoury past wears armour of enchanted spidersilk under his fine velvet doublets and fancy cloaks. He carries a saber as his primary weapon and has three large daggers, a small stiletto and as many as six throwing knives hidden on his person somewhere. He also owns a hunting bow, crossbow and a buckler. In a pinch, he can use cutlasses, cavalry sabers and clubs of all sizes. His skills range from DX+1 to DX+3, but he has a high DX.

The rough and tumble clansman from the wild hill folk has recently been anointed knight for his heroism. He uses a claymore as his primary weapon, most often in both hands, but wears a long-bladed rondel and small hammer as backup weapons. He also carries a ballock knife with a 10" blade and a small sgian dubh knife. He collects weapons, so these are just a sampling of what he has. Other weapons he's fought with include a spear, harpoons, shields (both bucklers and strapped ones) and improvised weapons of various sorts. He's deadly with anything he might pick up in a tavern fight. His weapon skills are DX+2 to DX+6.

The warrior scholar from an Eastern culture is a horse archer by training and is also learning to use magic. That means he has a recurved bow of dragonbone, an 8' long ash spear with a long blade, two savegely curved shamshirs, a dagger and a magic wand stiff enough to parry and thrust with. His weapon skills range from DX to DX+5, with Knife being his weakest skill, as he hardly ever uses it for battle.

If I had to name two compact and useful backup weapons, I'd name the Long Knife and the Hatchet.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

I believe knives are meant to count as Swords in this case.

Where is that stated? GURPS canonically has Targeted Attack (Bow Shot/Face) for Kyujutsu as well as just Targeted Attack (Bow Shot/Any) for the Foot Archery Style. Not to mention all the Targeted Attacks for guns in High-Tech.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

I dunno.....knives simply aren't swords, and they aren't priced the same way. As someone already observed, it fails a consistency check in that a VF knife often does more damage as many swords for a comparable price. Basic and DF both say swords and fencing weapons only. I see little room for ambiguity there. Any references???

MA68 in the Targeted Attack box, second paragraph:
It makes no mention at all of missile weapon skills. I guess we have a lack of editing consistency here. Obviously Kyujutsu contradicts this in the same book, so you must be able to use missile skills. Personally, I don't much like TA anyway. Give the players a choice, and they'll go for Vitals, Neck and Skull almost everytime.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

What you're looking for is a good, muscle-powered, one-handed, concealable ranged weapon. The hatchet and throwing axe are both good (the hatchet can be thrown farther, and is easier to conceal, but the throwing axe does more damage). You may want to invest in TA: Neck to optimize damage. A pistol crossbow could work with a sufficiently lax/cinematic setting. In a more realistic one, there would be legality concerns, as well as the fact that carrying around a loaded crossbow could be rather problematic. A sling is a bit less problematic (provided you have a believable way of keeping it loaded), and the damage is decent, but all told you'd probably be best off with a hatchet or throwing axe (although the sling has far better range, making it more useful outside of a backup weapon role). If you've enough skill to throw more than one at a time, shuriken can also be a good investment. TA: Neck with star shuriken is good if you expect to be against enemies in armor, TA: Vitals with spike shuriken is good against unarmored foes.

If you are willing to sacrifice damage for more useful options, the bolas and the net are excellent investments. Nothing gives an ally the upper hand like making the enemy unable to use his own! For concealability, the bolas is definately your best option. If you expect to be fairly close to the enemy, a long whip can also be useful - although concealability may not be an option.

If you want to keep the points you've invested in Thrown Weapon (Knife) useful, the hungamunga from MA probably has the best damage profile of any thrown knife (sw-1 cut). You'll probably want to target vulnerable areas (the neck and hands) to optimize usefulness. This also goes for many of the weapons I listed above.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

The canonical melee weapon classes used in the game appear under Melee Weapon (pp. B208-209). There, the "fencing weapons" class includes the main-gauche while the "swords" class includes knives. It's very definitely the case that knives are meant to be treated as simply a subset of swords for the purpose of weapon quality. We even say "fencing- or sword-class weapon" just above, for fine quality.

We didn't mean to exclude ranged skills. Mostly, we just wanted to list the skills most commonly used with TA. There are one or two examples of TA for ranged skills in all of Martial Arts, versus dozens for Melee Weapon and unarmed combat skills.

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Peter Dell'Orto, the writer of Martial Arts, wasn't sure when he thought about it. I can't recall whether we ever got an answer about what was intended with this sentence. I do remember seeing Very Fine knives references by many people, so obviously both interpretations have some favour.

Well, regardless of what the situation is now, Very Fine Knives will exist in the future. ;)

Edit: Lo and behold, Kromm has made it so. ;)

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

So he has. :-) I'd better be quiet now before I start to look too dumb....

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

No references here, but I can see the logic in it.

The quality plusses might simply be a more convenient way of saying the blade cuts 15% and 30% (or whatever) more efficiently than a standard blade. For larger weapons, 15% and 30% round to +1/+2 bonus damage. For smaller weapons, both round to +1.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

There would also be the problem of the fact that it's useless beyond a very short range, extremely expensive and once you shoot it, it takes forever to reload.

The pistol crossbow is dismissed by some historians as mythical. I don't go that far, but I'll say that the only examples that I'd rate as capable of killing an adult human on anything but a critical hit are mid-TL4, loaded with a cranequin (which is too large to conceal well) and still don't work at a longer range than few feet.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

It depends on how you define "ranged weapon" and "capable of practical holdout rolls."

First, let's assume that melee use is vital. If you're rushed, you surely don't want to be in close combat with a bow or a sling, or a throwing-only weapon like a chakram or a hungamunga.

Next, let's assume that the weapon has to be capable of hitting targets outside practical melee range (3 yards) but indoors, where 100-yard ranges are excessive. That cuts the list down to throwable melee weapons, and long, flexible ones like kusaris, whips, and rope darts.

After that, let's assume that unless you make a career out of Holdout, you don't want to go past -3. That's where the classic fantasy thief's shortsword lives. This chops off full-sized throwing axes and maces, and the bulkiest whips (chain whips, kusaris, and studded bullwhips).

What does that leave?

• Shuriken (range 5 at ST 10, Holdout 0). Thrown damage is pathetic. They can be held in the hand and used with Brawling . . . also for pathetic damage. About all they have going for them is ease of use (Thrown Weapon and Brawling are both DX/E) and concealability (Holdout 0!). Oh, and they're cheap and light enough to use as belt and shoe buckles, buttons, earrings, hair pins, etc.

• Throwable knives. The dagger (range 5 at ST 10, Holdout -1), small knife (range 5 at ST 10, Holdout -1), and large knife (range 8 at ST 10, Holdout -2) are all concealable, dual-purpose blades. They can be wielded with Main-Gauche for a respectable parry, or chucked with Thrown Weapon (Knife). As you said, damage is pathetic. Fine or very fine quality can help a lot – but do you want to throw away an $800 very fine large knife?

• Sais (range 8 at ST 10, Holdout -3). Well, a sai isn't much better than a knife if you chuck it. But it does function as a fair club in a melee, and is great for disarming. Also, it stabs as well as any knife and can take advantage of the Main-Gauche skill as well as the Jitte/Sai skill. So if you'd carry a knife, I'd say that a sai would be better in every way . . . well, except that it's more expensive, heavier, and absolutely calls for a harder skill.

• Whips. The light whip proposed in Martial Arts (reach 1-4, Holdout -3) and the rope dart (reach 1-4, Holdout -2) let you cover melee combat and limited ranged combat with one skill. The first can entangle while the second does fair damage. Either should work with Garrote, if you have to sneak up on someone. But you can forget about ever parrying! And a mean GM will impose penalties for scenery indoors . . .

• Small flails. The bola perdida (range 60 at ST 10, Holdout -2) and bolas (range 30 at ST 10, Holdout -2) are cheap, light, and concealable. They can do some major hurt in melee combat with Flail, and hurt or tie up foes at range with Bolas. But, well, that's a DX/H skill and a DX/A skill vs. DX/A and DX/E for knives. And you can still forget about parrying usefully in a melee.

• Boomerangs (range 60 at ST 10, Holdout -2). Ah, now we're getting somewhere! The rang is a pretty mean hurled weapon, as it gets swing damage and has a low Bulk. Per Martial Arts, it serves as a baton in a melee, entirely capable of striking and parrying. And it's cheap, like the budgie.

• Hatchets (range 15 at ST 10, Holdout -3). Wow, what a deal! The hatchet is one of the only Axe/Mace weapons that's balanced for striking, parrying, and throwing. It does swing/cutting damage in melee and on a throw. And it's light, cheap, and can pass as a tool.

I'd call the hatchet the winner, with the boomerang in close second place if your Holdout skill isn't too good or you'd rather avoid blood. After that, it's a wash . . . use some sort of bola if you like to throw things far, some sort of whip if you prefer entangling and strangling, or a sai if you plan to end up in melee more often than not. Knives are pretty lame until you get up to katars, kukris, and long knives, none of which are usefully ranged – so forget knives. Shuriken are silly, but then again, they're light, cheap, and basically invisible, so I'd recommend them as tertiary weapons for your urban warrior, especially if the GM is willing to agree that they count as caltrops when pitched into the floor (as done in reality).

Of course, there's the issue of what skills you know. If you're a battlefield warrior, you might already know Axe/Mace, Flail, or Shortsword, so that may settle the issue for you. Conversely, if you're already an ace at urban warfare, you'll want things that leverage Brawling and Garrote.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Could one feasibly fast draw a hatchet? That would seem an important consideration for a backup weapon, as if your main weapon goes flying away want to get another ready quickly

Also are they any potential backup weapons that make use of the polearm skill and/or can default from it?

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

*Shrug*

It doesn't hurt my SoD that if a two-handed sword can be Fast-Drawn, so can a hatchet.

Not ones that are easily concealable or comfortable to carry, no. Polearm fighters should know Staff, as well, so there's that if the weapon breaks. Otherwise, though, it makes sense to have a secondary (tertiary, quartary, etc.) weapon skill as well as weapons.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Small pouch of fine sand (1) Seriously, dust or anything to make someone
either look away for an attack or subsequently blind them. Cheap, and
found just about anywhere. Turn the deployment method into a Gizmo if possible.

Three Stooges are constantly using those chimney bellows to fill each other or
an opponent's face/eyes with soot. Place a smaller one up the off arm/sleeve and
arrange a safety for it.



(1) Or Dust of Sneezing and Choking if it's handy.

>

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Page 252 High Tech 4e.

For each Targeted Attack (TA), the gunman must specify a Guns specialty and a target. The target can be a hit location other than the torso (Eye, Face, Arm, etc.), chinks in armor at a specific hit location (Torso Chinks is valid, although the GM may rule that some hard armor isn’t vulnerable), or Weapon.

It like TA in MA is ofcourse an optional rule.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

True. Also, if Gizmo-type throwables are an option, don't overlook "going ninja." The metsubushi (Martial Arts, p. 220) is a ready-made blinding powder puffer, and of course there's nothing wrong with nageteppo (Dungeon Fantasy 1, p. 25).

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

If any rules say this then they do not reflect reality. The katar is no better at penetrating armor than any other blade with a similar geometry.

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Yes. I've seen demos where men pulled four light throwing axes from an ordinary belt and chucked them in about four seconds. You'd need eight seconds if you had to Ready and then Attack, so I'd say that's Fast-Draw. I wouldn't allow it for anything but hatchets and smallish hurlbats – certainly not for full-sized throwing axes, maces, etc. – but I'd be fine with it for hatchets.

No. Polearms are almost by definition main battle weapons. Even full-sized swords are "backup" weapons relative to them. There isn't a lot of polearm technique that's applicable to concealed weapons in close quarters.

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I have tried to make pistol crossbow using every material I could think of and the only decent result came from using fibreglass. I don't think it is possible to make a pistol crossbow from a low-tech material that would be useful in combat. At point blank range you might inflict a single point of damage. Its only practical use would be to deliver poison. The only low tech material that might work that I didn't try is baleen since the ban on whale hunting has made it hard to acquire. According to the following website, baleen from a right whale makes the best springs
http://www.whaling.jp/english/isana/no32_01.html

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Lime powder would be the best low-tech material for this.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

What about fine dusted pottery with some ash mixed into it? Not all areas have a easy access to Lime Powder but pottery is common.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Venetian balestrinos didn't have a pistol stock, but they were small enough to shoot with one hand. They were quite lethal at short range.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

So when you buy the Enchantment at that price it only works when you use the weapon at range. It doesn't work when you use the knife in melee. That's certainly how I'd GM it.

As to the "throwing away" part Loyal Weapon at 750 per lb is most affordable for light weapons like the 1 lb Large Knife. Winged Knife and Hide Object are also priced by the lb.

Again, you'll say this is expensive but you're going to have to spend $ and/or cp or lower your expectations. Going ninja will tend to be expensive too as you're literally throwing away things.

I agree with Kromm about hatchets but the OP said he'd already tried those.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

When aiding a buddy, don't discount impairing weapons. Sure, bola damage sucks, but it can be a distraction for long enough that your buddy can cope on his own. Same for a whip. A net ready for use isn't particularly concealable, but it can be folded up just fine and might be ignored anyway. A cloak might not have the range you want, but it's a worthwhile skill in its own right.

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I assume that's the price for ammunition, and that it's one use.

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As far as I can tell it isn't one use. I've certainly never treated it as such. As long as the missile survives the enchantment is intact.

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I'd recommend Long Knife. It's a very useful melee weapon. It can even be thrown if the GM permits Thrown Weapon (Sword) skill (Martial Arts, p. 220). Range 5 at ST 10, -3 to Holdout, Fast-Drawable.

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Sure, it doesn't say so, but I can't see any other justification for the cost change.

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Because Ammo is at least one use/combat and often (but not always) is one use; obviously magic bullets are going to be usually lost; bolts and arrows will be somewhat more reusable, but eventually destroyed or lost.

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Punch, kick and above all, wrestle! If your warrior wears armor, he can really hurt someone with a gauntlet to the kisser. Wrestling down over-specialized fighters is also very satisfying. Let's see them fence and riposte from a triangle choke.

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It gets the bonus to target chinks in armour because of its geometry.

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<shrug> Play balance. A swordsman will probably make (at least) 20 attacks in the time an archer uses to shoot 10 arrows and his sword enchantments don't wear off either.

The archer has to (at least) recover his arrows before he can use them in the next fight. Making the archer pay full price on his arrow enchantments would be ruinously expensive and basically legislate magic arrows out of existence.

Enchanted arrows are already a bad deal. Even assuming you get +1s done Q&D while melee weapons have to be done S&S doesn't really help. My groups always enchanted the bow and used Cornucopias.

This also short-circuited the D&Dism about not being able to re-use arrows. At least target arrows get re-used many, many times.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

This is very true. I have two anecdotes.


In my previous campaign – a high-points fantasy campaign entirely worthy of the description "fantasy action" – unarmed combat was rare. The PCs had favorite primary and secondary weapons, along with the social position to carry these even in the Emperor's presence, and so were rarely unarmed. When unarmed combat did happen, though, it blew past kicking range and punching range, and went right to the clinch, if not to the ground. This was because foes often had armor you'd be a fool to strike and weapons you'd want to restrain ASAP.

Thus, in that setting, stand-up striking was a sport, not an activity for warriors. Just about every PC knew Wrestling – even the people who lacked all of Boxing, Brawling, and Karate. Half the warriors, despite (or because of) being swordsmen, improved grappling techniques. Popular choices were Arm Lock, Choke Hold, Ground Fighting, Leg Grapple, Neck Snap, and Wrench (Limb).


In my (relatively) new campaign – a high-points modern espionage campaign entirely worth of the description "action heroes" – we've only run eight game sessions so far. Just two have featured combat.

During Session 6, all the combat prior to the gunplay was grappling: The traceur tackled two gunmen, pinned their arms to their sides, and smashed them into walls. Meanwhile, the group's social engineer used Judo to defend herself. During the shooting, the squad's weapons expert threw one punch; that was it for striking. Toward the end, it was back to grappling, with the team leader dragging an opponent across the seat of a truck by the arm in order to pin him with the vehicle's door.

During Session 8, a couple of strikes were thrown . . . one from behind, as a sucker punch, and the other to finish the same target after he had been borne to the ground. Once real combat started, it was gunplay from the outset. The only unarmed confrontation against an aware foe involved grappling the gun arm of a man with a pistol. There were eventually strikes, but only after the foe was restrained.

These outcomes are because modern body armor is rather good, and not a useful thing to punch ("Ow. Ceramics."), while firearms are so deadly that you must grab the arm ASAP. Striking has its uses, but those are "hitting people from behind" and "hitting people who have been grappled." Grappling is key.

—

In the balance, then, I would say that in an action game, a good investment in Wrestling – say, 8 points to get the +2 ST bonus – is as effective a "backup weapon" as you could ask for. For added fun, also learn Judo for the throw, and stick a few points in a technique like Arm Lock or Choke Hold.

And note that you can help allies this way. Use Judo to throw one foe at another. Restrain your rival and use pain compliance to march him between your friend and the guy attacking him. Grapple your opponent and your pal's, and smash their heads together. Do a quick sweep or takedown on your enemy, and while he's getting up, go assist your ally. Martial Arts has all the rules you need for this.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

That's a concept GURPS Magic has mostly been immune to.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

This is interesting. One thing I prefer with Striking over grappling is the fact that any blow to the Head/Face/Skull gives you a chance of knockdown and stunning. If you are able to pull off a major blow on top of that, it gives the opponent a crippling penalty to their HT rolls (-5 / -10). I'm no rules guru at all (I feel I'm still learning the system even though I played it for about 2 years) but I'm wondering if some of your players considered these advantages over grappling ?

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Two problems come up with striking:

1. Armor. In fantasy settings, paid-off guards, goons in the private armies of noblemen, bandit raiders, etc. wear helmets and at least hauberks or breastplates. Modern tactical operators wear vests, frequently with inserts, along with hard and sometimes visored helmets. Scoring a knockdown or knockout blow to the face, skull, or vitals is very difficult. The usual result is punching armor and hurting yourself more than you hurt your target.

2. Weapons. Most heavies have them. Low-tech thugs have axes, spears, and swords. High-tech ones have batons, bayonets, knives, machetes, and tonfas. If they parry your strike, you're through. They can parry a grapple, too, but here's the thing: You might need lots of strikes until you bash through armor and someone fails a HT roll. Each one means a chance to split a fist or a foot on a blade. But a grapple, once landed, allows follow-up moves that aren't subject to parries.

In high-tech settings, there's one further issue: guns. Whether you strike or grapple, a gunman gets lots of shots as you approach. As the saying goes, "Charge a pistol, flee from a knife." This is because given a pistol's range, you can't outrun it; the only chance you have is to get next to it and control it. And charging works far better when you can make a Sumo Wrestling-based slam or Wrestling-based Drop Kick (bigger damage bonus than Brawling), and/or know Judo and use it for Evade (which lets you get behind someone). That is, in GURPS, "grappling" includes gap-bridging.

I'm not saying, "Striking sucks!"; I'm saying, "Weapons do striking better!" If your objective is to strike, carry a backup weapon, even a little knife. It's simply interesting to note that grappling is almost a "weapon" of its own, in a way that striking isn't.

And of course there's the fact that grappling is a great way to get a backup weapon: Grapple somebody else and take his!

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

On the contrary, going back to its' roots in the The Fantasy Trip the focus on balancing for arena-level combat has been quite strong. A wizard usually has just enough FP to kill one opponent and enough time to get his spell off if he starts casting when his enemy begins charging at him from the other side of the arena.

Balancing on broader levels is more difficult.

On the one shot arrow thing, you of course know that in D&D 3.5 magic arrows are only good for one use but the price break is 50 to 1 rather than just 10. In my experience people still enchant the bow rather than the arrows anyway (even if 50 arrows really might see them through a whole campaign).

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Due to this thread I wound up picking 3 hatchets and a Dwarven Axe as backup weapons, the former for throwing or when quickdraw is needed, and the latter for when have time to ready it

In DnD 50 arrows dont last an entire campaign, they likely wont last a single adventure, and sometimes may not last a single fight

A somewhat leveled DnD archer can match up nicely with a GURPS Heroic Archer since both fire at about 60rpm

But in DnD there exist spells like Greater Magic Weapon to cast on a pile of generic arrows to turn them magical at +X for Y hours

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

That depends on the character. It's probably true for everyone who carries a long range weapon for specialized circumstances only.

Around 50 total might be just about how many arrows my last D&D(Pathfinder) Barbarian used between 1st and 16th level. After he got his Winged Boots there just wasn't much call and charging to use the greataxe was almost always a better option when it was possible..

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Ah, true, I was more thinking of my Order of the Bow Initiate, who at level 18 or so who periodically went through more than 50 arrows in a single fight

But I can only recall one instance where she actually used her sword (and had a +3 rapier at the time), before that she carried a masterwork short sword which I dont think she ever even drew

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Reading it over I think I've settled on Bolas and Dust-Throwing weapons. I'll give hatchets a retry since by the read-through it seems I wasn't using them to their fullest. Both will near instantly accomplish what I need them to, especially in regards to aiding teammates not fairing so well with more than doing damage in mind.

I've already invested well enough on wrestling as an unarmed skill but I've not much considered it beyond backup, something else I might change.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

The only geometry that is useful for punching through armour is a compact spike. Show me an example of a katar with a such a geometry.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

I'm pretty sure the Katar doesn't have a bonus to penetrate armor, only that it's supposed to be easier to hit the more vulnerable parts with it than a regular weapon.

How accurate that is, I dunno, but it seemed you two were arguing about different points.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

I have trouble seeing how a weapon is more accurate at targeting chinks without being just generally more accurate. Not that it's impossible that the katar is generally more accurate, but it seems unlikely -- based on how the hand is wired, your best accuracy would be for a weapon that follows the direction of a pointed index finger, which describes neither a katar (folded fingers) nor a conventional knife (perpendicular, follows the thumb), though it does describe the pistol grip in fencing.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Sure it does. There's no difference whatsoever in terms of control whether you actually extend that finger. What matters is that you're gripping the weapon in a way that's consistent with a pistol grip. This assuredly does include the katar. Held in hand, it feels pretty much exactly like a pistol. You could even stick a finger out, but it wouldn't actually help you much. Then again, it doesn't help you much with a pistol; you just lay the finger there because you need a way to pull the trigger and leaving a finger on the trigger is terribly unsafe.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

This. Never make a fighter without one.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Yes, but apparently not what the OP wants, since it's a not a ranged weapon.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

My GMs tend to ignore that not all knives can be thrown. He's got a long knife too, I've just never considered mentioning it since it's only real strong point is being available when I lose my primary. To be a tad more specific, I've got a Primary, a few Secondaries, and a Backup (since I cant think of a nifty word for 'third'). The backup is what I use when the playing field changes. I didn't bother to make the distinction since it wouldn't have added anything to the thread.

For instance; 2 guys rush me while third rushes the princess. Either I bola him or face-dust the two in front of me. For me, it's a backup in the sense that I wouldn't need to use it if I had backup.

If I had to get a even more specific, I'd say it's my panic button.

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

Most of the time my backup weapon is identical to my main weapon, such as a second broadsword or whatever, since can use the same skill, but not as high of quality/enchantment due to cost issues

Being able to use the same skill with both is a big plus

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

How about tertiary?

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

If I mispronounce that as I've just done, I do believe my friends will make kindergarden-level jokes every time I attempt to use it. Thanks but I'll stick with backup. ;)

Re: Fantasy Action Hero Backup Weapons
 

The second "t" sounds like "sh", like in nutrition. So you end up with it being something like tur-shi-ary. No feces involved!

Of course, because you're using the weapon as a replacement for actual backup, calling it a backup weapon works just as well. I think bolas will probably work best for you - although sand/dust is nice and nasty versions (like salt/pepper) qualify to work with gizmo, it can only engage foes you are already in melee with - and with some GM's, you'll have to worry about it getting blown back into your own face! Gizmo might still work to pull out some improvised bolas.