Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

The rules for horses in the Basic Set are a bit biased towards modern horse sizes and lack a certain level of detail when it comes to modifying the basic stats. As such, I've used the following in my home campaign:

Horse Traits

Some horse traits are inherited and others are the result of training. Both are treated the same for game purposes, but a GM may restrict some of them to horses with bloodlines that support them. If the GM allows a given trait to be trainable, the construction rules are a good place to start to determine the time. If the result seems implausible, it should be adjusted, as horses differ greatly and what one might learn in days another will take years to assimilate.

Traits sharing the same name are levelled and incompatible with each other. A GM may rule that other traits are mutually exclusive or naturally come together. For example, a gelding will rarely be aggressive enough for high Brawling scores and horses with many positive traits will tend to have Styling (see Low-Tech/High-Tech) as equestrians appreciate many aesthetic features that correlate with good performance. In addition, fast and nimble horses seldom go past a certain size and the strongest horses seldom have good endurance.

A very good horse that can be bred will also carry a premium over and above its worth as a mount. This is dependent on many factors, but in general, the prices below assume a mare or a gelding. A stallion with sought-after characteristics will be at least three times the price and often ten times it or more. The GM is within his rights to apply a CF for this factor to any stallion and even some mares.

By contrast, some breeds, even some very hearty and tough ones, have been despised by those rich enough to pay high prices. This is particularly likely for breeds that are slightly smaller than average, even though they may be equally strong as larger horses. Such a horse might only cost half of the final price determined by his qualities, but his progeny would be hard to sell and reaction modifiers would certainly apply for anyone riding such a horse when his social status would demand a more suitable mount.

The Mount skill of different types will be orientated towards very different things. A palfrey prioritised a smooth gait, while chargers must be steady, aggressive and capable of holding formation with other horses. To simulate this, the GM may wish to impose familiarity penalties for horses being used for different tasks than those they are trained for. Very specialised horses might even have an Optional Specialisation on their Mount skill, at no change to cost.

Some breeds of horses may also be fashionable or in great demand due to certain economic conditions. Handle this with the rules for Luxury pricing. Note that both destriers and jennets would be subject to this rule at various times during the medieval period.

Conditioning: This trait is partly the result of bloodline and partly the result of good feed and regular exercise. It grants Fit and adds a +3 CF.

Superb Conditioning: Very few horses are capable of attaining such a fine pitch of physical perfection, but those which can are sought after for hunting, war and travel. Grants Very Fit and adds +9 CF.

Dressage: Training in responding to a rider’s commands beyond the minimum required to serve as a pack animal. Gives Mount skill at DX+2. This training is assumed for most riding horses, but if added to a template which does not have it, add +0.5 CF.

Improved Dressage: More specific training for the role a horse fills. Familiarity penalties may apply when used outside this speciality. Gives Mount skill at DX+3 or +1 to Mount skill if it is already at that level or higher. Adds +1 CF.

Advanced Dressage: A horse with this level of training can function as a noble’s steed. Grants Mount skill at DX+4 or +2 to Mount skill, whichever is higher. Adds +2 CF. Further levels are possible, at +2 CF per +1 to skill.

Fast: Some horses are faster than others. For a creature bred for travel, this is a valuable trait. Gives +1 Move and adds +1 CF.

Very Fast: The fastest horses command astronomical prices. Few large horses are this fast and most breeds that produce such speedy mounts are sought after and have Styling or Luxury pricing in addition to the base modifier. Adds +2 Move and +3 CF.

Graceful: An agile and sure-footed horse. Adds +1 DX. +3 CF.

Very Graceful: The picture of equine grace. Grants +2 DX and adds +9 CF.

Jumping: A horse can be taught to jump hedges and obstacles. A basic facility with jumping is assumed to be a part of the training of normal riding horses, but some mounts are unusually good jumpers. Grants Jumping at DX+1. Adds +0.5 CF.

Improved Jumping: Hunters must often negotiate bad terrain and jump obstacles that suddenly appear. This grants Jumping at DX+2 and adds +1 CF.

Advanced Jumping: Jumping horses can be a flashy demonstration of skill and horse quality as well as a practical skill. Grants Jumping at DX+3 and adds +2 CF. Further levels are possible, with each +1 to skill adding +2 CF.

Robust: A healthy horse, with strong bones and good structure. Gives +1 HT. +1 CF.

Very Robust: An extremely tough horse, the kind which can stand any discomfort and difficulty. Gives +2 HT and adds +3 CF.

Course Running: Training for horse racing, over short and medium distances. Gives Running (Optional Speciality: Racing) at HT+1. Roll against the speciality when using Contests of Running skill to determine the winner of a race. Adds +0.5 CF.

Improved Course Running: Typical for a racing horse that competes in series races. Grants Running (Optional Speciality: Racing) at HT+2. CF +1.

Advanced Course Running: The finest racing horses might race in front of high nobility and royalty and fortunes might change hands depending on their form. Usually only fast horses are chosen for such extensive race training. Grants Running (Optional Speciality: Racing) at HT+3. CF +2. Further levels are possible, at +2 CF per +1 to skill.

Endurance Running: Training for long distance runs. Gives Running (Optional Speciality: Endurance Running) at HT+1. Roll against the speciality when using Running in place of HT when determining Fatigue loss. +0.5 CF.

Improved Endurance Running: Hunters are often trained for long and hard riding. This gives Running (Optional Speciality: Endurance Running) at HT+2. +1 CF.

Advanced Endurance Running: Some horses can run for hours without tiring. This trait is often combined with Conditioning for exceptional hunters and messenger horses. Gives Running (Optional Speciality: Endurance Running) at HT+3. Adds +2 CF. Further levels are possible, with each +1 to skill giving +2 CF.

Stamina: Usually a factor of breed and bloodline rather than training, this horse has better wind than others. Gives a +1 to FP and adds +0.25 CF.

Good Stamina: A very good endurance horse, with an efficient gait and good lung capacity. Adds +2 FP. +0.5 CF.

Tireless Stamina: Horses with this kind of constitution are exceptionally rare and extremely sought after. Gives +3 FP and adds +1 CF.

Strong Specimen: Large or strong horses have always been sought after. This adds about +10% (in whatever combination the GM deems plausible) to the horse’s ST or Lifting ST. Usually, but not always, this also means a higher weight and therefore greater feed requirements. It adds +1 CF.

Very Strong Specimen: The very strongest horses carry a large premium, if only for their rarity. Very Strong Specimen adds up to +20% (in whatever combination the GM deems plausible) to the horse’s ST or Lifting ST and such horses are always larger than normal examples of their type. It adds +3 CF.

Basic War Training: Enough exposure to noise and shocks for a horse to be unlikely to bolt during the confusion of battle. Also includes familiarity with most cavalry drills used by the trainer’s culture. Gives Fearlessness 2. Adds +0.5 CF.

War Training: Aggressive horses can be trained to not only bear their riders in battle, but to attack the foe themselves with kicks and bites. Grants +1 Will; Combat Reflexes instead of Fearlessness 2; +1 to Mount skill and adds Brawling skill at DX+1. At the GM’s option, spirited horses can have higher Brawling scores, but usually have Bad Temper to match. Adds +1 CF.

Advanced War Training: A knight’s destrier might be trained for years and enjoy long experience of warfare. An example of the kind of benefit this might yield is Advanced War Training. It grants +1 Will; Combat Reflexes; Fearlessness 2; +2 to Mount skill and Brawling at DX+2 or higher. It adds +3 CF.

Horse Types
 

Screwbald
ST: 17; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 10.
Will: 10; Per: 12; Speed: 5; Dodge: 8; Move: 6.
SM +1 (2 hexes); 700 lbs.

Traits: Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 12); Hooves; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Lifting ST +1; Weak Bite.
Cost: $500

A small horse that can be ridden by a small man or someone with little baggage.

Sumpter
ST: 19; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 11.
Will: 10; Per: 12; Speed: 5; Dodge: 8; Move: 6.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 800-900 lbs.

Traits: Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 0.5 (Ground Speed 9); Hooves; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Lifting ST +2; Weak Bite.
Cost: $750

A typical pack horse and may also be used to represent any kind of working horse.

Hackney
ST: 19; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 11.
Will: 10; Per: 12; Speed: 5; Dodge: 8; Move: 6.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 750-850 lbs.

Traits: Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 12); Hooves; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Lifting ST +1; Weak Bite.
Skills: Mount -11.
Cost: $1,200

The typical saddle horse would be a hackney. Higher quality ones might be called rouncies in some periods.

Draught horse
ST: 21; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 10; Per: 12; Speed: 5; Dodge: 8; Move: 6.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 1300-1500 lbs.

Traits: Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 12); Hooves; Increased HP +2; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Lifting ST +2; Lifting ST +2 (Dragging Only -60%); Weak Bite.
Cost: $2,000

A large and strong horse that can do hard work around a farm. Contrary to popular belief, such horses are not necessarily good at carrying weight, as opposed to dragging it.

Palfrey
ST: 19; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 11.
Will: 10; Per: 12; Speed: 5; Dodge: 8; Move: 7.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 800 lbs.

Traits: Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 14); Hooves; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Lifting ST +1; Weak Bite.
Skills: Mount (Optional Specialisation: Smooth Gait) -14/12.
Cost: $4,200 (Basic Cost $1,400).

This represents a basic palfrey or riding horse, the minimum quality a person of high birth could be seen riding. What differentiates it from a rouncey or hackney is not just quality, but also the signature gait, which is a more comfortable form of locomotion than the trot or gallop, if not as fast. This example includes Advanced Dressage (+2 CF). Many palfreys would have higher Mount skill, Styling, higher Move or improved Lifting ST and consequently would be much more expensive.

Jennet
ST: 18; DX: 10; IQ: 3; HT: 11.
Will: 10; Per: 12; Speed: 5.25; Dodge: 9; Move: 8.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 700 lbs.

Traits: Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 16); Hooves; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Lifting ST +1; Weak Bite.
Skills: Mount (Optional Specialisation: Smooth Gait) -15/13.
Cost: $6,000 (Basic Cost $2,000).

The jennet, like the palfrey, would usually be a mount for nobility and the rich. This example includes Advanced Dressage (+2 CF). The jennet came from Spain and for a long time, only black jennets were fashionable. This type was often identified with ladies, since they gave such a smooth ride, but they were fast and strong enough for the Spanish to have used them as light cavalry mounts.

Hobby
ST: 18; DX: 10; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 11; Per: 12; Speed: 5.5; Dodge: 9; Move: 8.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 750 lbs.

Traits: Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 16); Fearlessness +2; Hooves; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Lifting ST +2; Weak Bite.
Skills: Mount -12.
Cost: $3,000 (Basic Cost $2,000).

Like many medieval horses, the hobby would be classified as a pony today. It was the mount of the hobelar, a light cavalryman of Ireland and Scotland, and was reckoned marvellous fast and strong for its size. This example includes Basic War Training for +0.5 CF.

Garron
ST: 19; DX: 10; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 11; Per: 12; Speed: 5.5; Dodge: 8; Move: 7.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 900 lbs.

Traits: Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 14); Hooves; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Lifting ST +2; Weak Bite.
Skills: Mount -12.
Cost: $1,800.

The despised garron stood low from the ground, but was strongly built. It was nimble enough to be useful on rough roads where more fashionable horses could not go and strong enough to carry most men. The lack of cachet associated with them and low labour and feed requirements of breeding them meant that they were often available at even lower prices than this, despite their many advantages in mountainous terrain. Any noble riding a garron in front of his peers without a very good reason, though, risks a reaction modifier of -1 or worse.

Rouncey
ST: 20; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 10; Per: 12; Speed: 5.25; Dodge: 9; Move: 8.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 900-1000 lbs.

Traits: Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 16); Fearlessness +2; Hooves; Lifting ST +1; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Weak Bite.
Skills: Mount -11.
Cost: $2,700 (Basic Cost $1,800).

The better class of hackneys might also be referred to as rouncies, but this horse is a trained warhorse, albeit one more fitting for a squire than a knight. As such, the price includes +0.5 CF for Basic War Training.

Courser
ST: 21; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 11; Per: 12; Speed: 5.25; Dodge: 9; Move: 8.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 1000-1100 lbs.

Traits: Combat Reflexes; Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 16); Hooves; Lifting ST +1; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Weak Bite.
Skills: Brawling -10; Mount -12.
Cost: $4,000 (Basic Cost $2,000).

The most common warhorse, even for knights, during the medieval period. The courser is built much like a modern-day hunter. The price includes +1 CF for War Training.

Hunting Courser
ST: 21; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 11; Per: 12; Speed: 5.25; Dodge: 9; Move: 9.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 1000 lbs.

Traits: Combat Reflexes; Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 18); Fit; Hooves; Lifting ST +1; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Weak Bite.
Skills: Brawling -10; Jumping -12; Mount -14; Running -13.
Cost: $27,000 (Basic Cost $2,000).

An example of an expensive courser, this warm-blooded horse is a very fast hunter that can also be used for warfare. In addition to war training (+1 CF), it has Styling +2 (CF +3), Fast (+1 CF) Endurance Running (+0.5 CF), Advanced Dressage (+2 CF), Advanced Jumping (+2 CF) and Conditioning (+3 CF).

Destrier
ST: 22; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 11; Per: 12; Speed: 5.25; Dodge: 9; Move: 7.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 1200-1300 lbs.

Traits: Bad Temper (12); Combat Reflexes; Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 14); Hooves; Lifting ST +2; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Weak Bite.
Skills: Brawling -12; Mount -12.
Cost: $5,000 (Basic Cost $2,500).

This is a very utilitarian destrier, most likely considered passé by a high Status character’s peers. This might be due to some flaw in appearance or an unfashionable breed. It includes a +1 CF for War Training, but a good destrier should also include Styling and would likely be better trained.

Knight’s Destrier
ST: 22; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 11; Per: 12; Speed: 5.25; Dodge: 9; Move: 8.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 1200 lbs.

Traits: Bad Temper (12); Combat Reflexes; Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 16); Fearlessness 2; Hooves; Lifting ST +2; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Weak Bite.
Skills: Brawling -12; Mount -13.
Cost: $25,000 (Basic Cost: $2,500).

An example of a successful knight’s destrier, this horse stands between 15-16 hands tall and despite its formidable strength; it is surprisingly agile and quick. It includes a +3 CF for Advanced War Training as well as Styling +1 (+1 CF) and Fast (+1 CF). The price is also boosted by +4 CF for being a breedable stallion of a desirable type.

Great Destrier
ST: 23; DX: 9; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 11; Per: 12; Speed: 5.25; Dodge: 9; Move: 7.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 1600 lbs.

Traits: Bad Temper (12); Combat Reflexes; Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 14); Hooves; Lifting ST +3; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Weak Bite.
Skills: Brawling -12; Mount -12.
Cost: $12,500 (Basic Cost $2,500).

Huge horses such as this were actually not very common as warhorses in the medieval era. A very large man, however, might be unable to comfortably ride a smaller destrier while wearing full armour. This horse does not stand much more than 16 hands tall, but is broad-chested and muscular. The cost includes a +1 CF for War Training as well as Styling +1 (+1 CF) and Strong Specimen (+1 CF). It also includes a +2 CF boost for being a breedable stallion.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I'm particularly looking for input on whether the prices look right or if any need tweaking.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

My want to include these in my game are only hampered by how little I know on the subject of horses. Very well written though.

Re: Horse Types
 

This has me a bit perplexed. Are you replacing the Heavy Warhorse on B460? Your Great Destrier is much more expensive, but not clearly 'better' in all ways. Wouldn't you start with the Heavy Warhorse and work your way up from there for that sort of horse?

Re: Horse Types
 

The Heavy Warhorse is, as far as I know, not a real animal and it is certainly not a medieval animal. It also, unaccountably, doesn't cost enough. Since war training doubles price in the Basic Set, the price appears to be only $2,500 for the horse itself, which makes little sense.

I tried to retain Basic Set stats, but its very anachronistic for medieval horses to have so little difference between the types. A basic saddle horse being 1,200 and a destrier being 2,500 before war training is not realistic. Not to mention that the 1,900 lbs. destrier flies in the face of scholarship.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

That's what sourcebooks are for. It shouldn't take much effort to produce a book that will allow typical GMs, even ones who've never seen a horse, to present mounts as something else than anachronistic cars in their campaigns.

I know that each type needs a longer flavour text and rules for upkeep and care are missing. I direct you to the Pyramid article Horse Sense by a Mr. Mortimer for both, with my 4e stats replacing the 3e stats in the article. It's even a free article, I think, and should have survived the Pyramid changes.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Indeed, it is free: Horse Sense.
For those that have and prefer the downloaded archives, it's 2004/0603.html.

I'll most definitely be using these in my campaigns - thank you, Icelander!

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Thanks for these stats, Icelander. I expect they'll prove very useful.

Edit: Just a note regarding the Horse Sense article where it suggests --

Personally, I would take a different approach using a routine Blacksmith roll to cover making the shoe, and a non-routine Animal Handling (Equine) roll for actually shoeing the beast.

Re: Horse Types
 

FWIW, screwbald is a coloration, not a breed or type of horse. A piebald horse is blotched black and white, while a skewbald(screwbald) horse is blotched chestnut and white.

Re: Horse Types
 

Skewbald is a colouration, indeed, but the word is attested to at least once in a count of horse types. I thought it evocative and the list was missing a small and cheap mount for travellers such as wandering friars.

A courser for the warrior
A rounsey for the squire,
A sumpter for the baggage train,
A screwbald for the friar.
But I will braid the jennet
and shine the bridle- rein
For the riding of my lady
When she is home again.

A destrier for the jousting,
A hackney for the maid
A palfrey for the princely one
Who preens it on parade.
But I will gloss the jennet
That is cosy in the hay
for the riding of my lady
In the merry month of May.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I've never seen that one before; every case I've previously encountered has been a inaccurate rendition of Skewbald of Skewball, the latter being the name of a particular racehorse.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

very well done, thanks for this!

will something like the 'Horse Sense'-article appear in Low Tech or one of its three accompanying add-ons?
I'd really like to see that in there...

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

The shoes need to be fitted to the horse, which means bending and beating them into the appropriate shape, holding them up to the hoof to compare, and then beating away some more. Then nailing them on, and bending the nails over. A farrier should definately have Animal Handling, but most of the job falls under Blacksmithing.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Roleplayer #21 had a lengthy article about designing horses as characters. That was for 3rd ed., and isn't free, but it was written by someone who owned horses.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Yep. Farrier is not a skill, it is an occupation that involves multiple skills. All would have both Blacksmith and Animal Handling and many would also have Veterinary and Riding (Horse).

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Just as a point of reference, I've seen riding horses listed as being worth a pound (ie 240 silver pennies) which at the going rate of $4 GURPS per silver penny would be worth about $960. Leeway should be given to account for the fact the "historical reference" for the price of the horse was relevant to THAT particular horse at that particular time in that particular location. Likewise, I've seen references to warhorses being worth 14 pounds in value, which makes them worth in the vicinity of about $13,440 GURPS. The Horse Sense article freely available from Pyramid set my teeth on edge with the blanket assertion that warhorses should cost about $100,000 etc.

Cost is relative. If by the standards of the time, the average unskilled laborer earned a silver penny a day, or perhaps between 1 and 2 silver pennies per day (a Thatcher earned about 2d or 2 silver pennies per day) - then a 14 pound warhorse would run roughly 4.6 year's income for the common laborer. If $100,000 is about 4.6 year's labor, then it makes sense - otherwise, it is a bit out of whack :(

None the less - I can see the effort being made to distinguish between types of horses, and I applaud the effort. After reading Horse Sense, I can see too that the author of that piece, although perhaps not entirely accurate in some areas, was relatively accurate where it counted the most.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I've postulated riding horses at between $500 for a small and little trained one and 1,200 for a reasonable quality one.

I went with coursers costing up to five times the price of a cow and destriers up to seven times the price of a courser. Modified by a lot of factors, of course, but if we take a typical courser and a typical destrier, that isn't far off in these rules.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Somewhere along the way, I should print out the ideas presented here, and test them out on a spreadsheet or something to that effect. One thing I noted was the idea of adding war training, which in turn added about .5 CF to the overall horse value. The question that comes to my mind is:

What is the difference between training a horse of a given breed to the rigours of war, versus the training of a different horse/breed to the rigours of war? Shouldn't the cost of war training be a flat value (more or less) based on the cost of training in and of its own sake, rather than making it a multple of the horse's base value? If it takes 6 months of training to render a horse effectively battle trained at a low level, shouldn't that 6 months cost the same regardless of whether it was a high quality bit of horseflesh or an adequite bit of horseflesh? Just a thought.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Well, it's not exact, but there is a definite correlation between horse quality and the cost of his feed, so I guess it's not unfair to say it costs more to war train a destrier than a rouncey, if only because the destrier eats far more while you're doing so.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

As usual, I'd like to point out that the development and adoption of the horse collar between the 10th and 12th centuries (exactly when depended on where), almost exactly in the middle of the Mideaval period. Previous to the horse collar, horses in Europe were tools and toys of the wealthy, pretty much only good for warfare and personal transportation for those who didn't feel like walking. After the horse collar, horses become much more useful, dragging plows, carts, and wagons more efficiently than oxen. Horses become desirable farm equipment, essentially.

As horses become useful for more things, the number of people willing to pay for a useful horse goes up. More people start breeding and raising them, and the relative price starts to go down.

So horse prices can vary wildly over the European Middle Ages, depending on factors like the horse collar, whether or not there's been war or famine recently, and so on. I wouldn't be shocked to see either really high numbers or really low ones.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Grazing land is converted to cropland, prices go up. People die off -> fields abandoned and revert to pasture -> livestock prices go down.

And in particular, there was a general upward trend in real prices (that is, prices in terms of labour) of horses and butcher's meat over the course of the Middle Ages. Between c. 1100 and the eve of the Black Death, the real price of horses, beef, pork, and mutton in Western Europe roughly doubled. Population expanded, waste land was assarted, grazing became scarcer, and the price of livestock rose.

Over the same span of time the price of ironmongery fell by about the same factor, driven by economic development in the iron-making and ironworking industries. So in the late 11th century the knight's mail was more costly than his horse, while in the early 14th century his horse was more costly than his armour (which furthermore was probably better-made and stronger).

And to make the whole thing even more confusing, the output of silvermines (in Germany and Austria, I think) increased the money supply faster than the economy grew, so that nominal price levels (i.e prices of food and labour in money terms) steadily rose.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I'm preparing an Ancient Greece campaign. What kind of horse would the hippeis of a city-state like Athens use? And did they shoe horses back then? Wikipedia says no, but I'm not sure I trust it.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Shoeing, no. That's a medieval development.

And I'm afraid that I have little or no knowledge of Ancient Greek horseflesh. I have some minimal knowledge of Roman Republican ones, but I've never investigated the question in earlier periods.

I can hazard a guess that they'd be small, enough to count as ponies in the modern day.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I reduced the destrier prices, but instead a note should be made that for most of the high medieval period, destriers were subject to Luxury Pricing and Status 2 was required to make regular use of them. As such, the prices are multiplied by 5. If the GM wishes, he can replicate a particular period by fiddling with the Luxury Pricing multiplier, so that a 12th century destrier might be Status 1 (x2) and a 14th century one Status 2 (x5).

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I feel like a bonehead for asking, but what does CF refer to? I looked through the index in the rules and couldn't find anything...

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Can't believe nobody brought this one up (granted it's 3e):
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Rolepla...obleSteed.html

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Cost Factor. Introduced in Dungeon Fantasy ans used in a couple of other books since then, it replaces the multiplier system for better quality gear.

To find the final cost, multiply the list cost of an item by 1+(Total CF). For instance, if you want to buy a shortsword (usually $400) which is fine quality (+3 CF) and silver coated (+2 CF) multiply the base cost ($400) by the total cost factor (5 in this case) plus one to get the final cost ($400 x 6 = $2,400).

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Thanks, I don't own Dungeon Fantasy (or any other newer stuff) so that explains why I missed it.
It sounds fairly useful now that you've explained it.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

According to my reading material no. There ara some vague evidence about some kind of protection for horses shoes were at earliest around 150 BC uptil 500 AD. After 650 AD there are documented tales of Gauls and Germanic tribes using horseshoes. During the earliest crusades horseshoes had become common.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I remember a readable book called "The Horsemen of Athens" which discusses the Athenian cavalry and their mounts at great length. It might be a good place to start your research. Or for simplicity, just use BS cavalry horses.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I can't find the Mount skill anywhere, can someone tell me what book it is in?

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

It's on B210.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Sorry about that. I must have missed it. I feel like an idiot now. Thank you for your help.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Icelander - Are there any other references for skewbald being a type of horse rather than a coloration? I am not sure I would trust a poet to stick to a classification scheme if skewbald (the color) fits the rythyme pattern.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Is there going to be anything like this in Low-Tech? To me horses and other beasts of burden are as important to a Low Tech game as vehicles are to a High Tech and Ultra Tech game.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Out of curiosity, how does this model plug into later dates, such as those encountered in a swashbuckling or Old West style campaign? Specifically, how does terminology and all that change?

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Great work! Congatulations! =)

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Many of your CFs look quite low. I can easily imagine a player making a Very Wealthy character and then buying a totally pimped horse, as part of his starting equipment.


Also, it might help if you include some rarity guidelines, like "any horse with a CF total of more than 3 is Rare, thus difficult to find although usually available in cities, any horse with a CF total of more than 10 is Very Rare, and any horse with a CF total of more than 15 is Extremely Rare", except of course more elaborate, and talking about horse trainers, and different levels of horse-focus in different cultures (Rohan versus Gondor, e.g.).

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

There are none, no.

But then again, it's not like there are unassailable sources for much of the other typologies either. Usage tends to be unscientific in the extreme and a period of one generation is more than enough for the meaning of a term to evolve. And we're discussing hundreds of years.

All in all, we've got a choice between going with the classification system that's both consistent and logical as well as being attested in one primary source or going with the more accurate, if pedantic, view that most of these terms had more than one meaning in different areas or periods and that it is impossible to classify historical horse types in any non-arbitrary way.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

These people would be known as 'knights'.

The intent is that no self-respecting member of the warrior elite would ride horses at the prices given in the Basic Set.

Perhaps it would, but I'm not sure that I could write such a thing. I use these rules in a vaguely Medievalish setting, not actual medieval Europe, and any such guidelines would of necessity be world-specific.

In addition, horses with high CFs were historically not all that uncommon. After all, horses didn't qualify as actual warhorses unless they cost about $25,000 and they often ran far higher.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

And the term doesn't seem to have been used until after the medieval period according to the OED. Do you have a cite for that poem? It may push the etymology of the term back a few years.

[qoute] All in all, we've got a choice between going with the classification system that's both consistent and logical as well as being attested in one primary source or going with the more accurate, if pedantic, view that most of these terms had more than one meaning in different areas or periods and that it is impossible to classify historical horse types in any non-arbitrary way.[/QUOTE]

Almost all of the terms describe a particular function for a horse while skewbald merely describes the color. You might want to try the term 'nag'. It is late Middle English and describes a small riding horse or pony. The Ellesmere Manuscript (the Canterbury Tales) depicts the Friar riding on such an animal though the mount is not described in the text that I can find.

Otherwise excellent work. Will you be filling in various pony breeds such as the Wesh and the Icelandic Ponies?

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

You're not telling me that every time a player in your campaign creates a Very Wealthy character, and buys himself a totally pimped horse during character creation, you'll insist relentlessly that the character has to be a knight.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Actually a Knight doesnt have to buy it, it is usually his lord who does. This is especially true to loyal retainer knights and isnt the case from Second Sons who'se family can afford to give them the starting equipment for the job of man-at-arms.

In the Patron Advantage, the patron can provide as much as the Characters' Starting Wealth in Equipment and even more. So for 10cp all the knights standard equipment, regardless of his budget can be covered by his lord. Although some lords grant these as gifts to the knight as part of the "hiring" fee, so at 15cp (+50%) the knight starts out with equal his wealth in equipment and more depending on the lord.

The nice thing about this rule is that, it is ambigous about how much equipment. Which leaves it to your best educated guess.

Great Job Icelander :D

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Eh, no. Not in my vaguely Medievalish world, no.

In historicaly Europe, though?

What do you call wealthy men whose function in warfare was determined by their ability to field an expensive horse?

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Hippeis, equites, caballeros, chevaliers, ritters....

Cnihts are "boys". As in "Pay up, or I'll send the cnihts 'round".

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

"Sir."

tencharlimit

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Chuck Norris.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Pike fodder, pin cushion, tin can, high priority target, mobile loot, ransomable assets - other terms as the mood strikes. :)

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Can someone please direct me to the rules for Luxury pricing? Can't find them in the Basic Rules, can't find them in the Low-Tech book. Or perhaps I'm just missing them....?

Thanks,

T.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Eh... why don't you do me a favour and forgot you ever heard me say that?

In return, I'll point them out in Cabaret Chicks on Ice when that fabled tome finally sees the light of day.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

This thread looks very useful. Thanks, Icelander. Sorry I can't actually offer informed commentary as to the costings, though :)

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Out of idle curiosity, Icelander, where would Mongol ponies fit in here? They were definitely smaller than the grand stallions of the knights they fought, but supposedly had superior endurance and fortitude.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

No their endurance was pretty poor. A grass diet will do that to a horse. The Mongols got around the problem by taking a dozen remounts with them.

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You could probably get a decent approximation using Icelander's guidelines. Using slightly-educated guesses (and Dan's comment)...

The ponies may best be represented by a Hobby - fast, strong, and small. To that we'll add:

Conditioning: Dan's comment on the general poor feed indicates Conditioning would be rare, and Superb Conditioning nearly unheard of. The best Mongol ponies would have the former, while the typical specimen would not.

Dressage: Mongol archers lived and died by their mounts, so I suspect they made a point of training them well at being such. Improved or even Advanced Dressage would be common. We'll say Improved for the typical specimen. +1 CF

Fast: The hobby is already marvelously quick, but I suspect horses for archers would be faster still. Go with Fast, but note very good specimens would have Very Fast. +1 CF

Graceful: Skip on this one; I've never heard of the Mongol ponies being particularly graceful.

Jumping: No idea. A lot of cinema represents Mongols jumping their horses over obstacles during battle, but I've no clue how historically accurate this is. Give them Jumping to be safe. +0.5 CF

Robust: Again, poor feed goes against this.

Course Running: These are weapons of war, not racers.

Endurance Running: Dan's comments imply a lack of this. You might get away with basic Endurance Running, but I'd not bother.

Stamina: Again, no. You don't train your horses for extreme stamina if your battlefield tactics consists of switching horses frequently.

Strong Specimen: Probably not. These are animals that live off the land - all that extra muscle would just mean needing more (and better) food than they likely had access to.

War Training: Yes indeed. Most specimens probably have War Training, and Advanced War Training isn't uncommon. +1 CF

Altogether, we end up with a typical specimen with the following stats.

Mongol Pony
ST: 18; DX: 10; IQ: 3; HT: 12.
Will: 12; Per: 12; Speed: 5.5; Dodge: 9; Move: 9.
SM +1 (3 hexes); 750 lbs.

Traits: Combat Reflexes; Domestic Animal; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground Speed 18); Hooves; Peripheral Vision; Quadruped; Lifting ST +2; Weak Bite.
Skills: Brawling -11; Jumping -11; Mount -14.
Cost: $9,000 (Basic Cost $2,000).

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I would bring the HT10. I've seen the condition of HT11 ponies. These were fed feed corn, some kind of grass I can't remember and molasses and their HT was 11. Bare grass wouldn't let that HT go up beyond 11 in my opinion.

I recommend move to be 6. Mongol horses were intentional bred with feral Przewalski stock to maintain its resilience and self foraging ability. At 12 hands tall, I wouldnt compare it to a move of 9 (race horse).

Also these mounts were not as well trained as horses of a settled people. The Mongols would ride MANY different horses, diffusing the value of training and value any one individual horse.

Anyway Mount skill gives a +1 regardless of level. There are also very few instances for a mount roll, a mongol's superior horsemanship will roll instead.

The Horse having Survival-9 would be appropriate given the horse can actually fend for itself and look for food even in snow covered conditions.

What made mongols fast were not just their horses, it was their logistics. I would say 2/3 logistics and 1/3 horses. As nomads they were skilled and organized when traveling great distances. They all were skilled in path finding/navigation, survival (allowing them to anticipate weather, hazards, and problems) and endurance riding.

Their horses weren't special, in fact they were worse than Arab and European bred horses. They just had so much of them. If you look at their region's demographics their population density was so low (modern times was 2 per sq km). There was just so many horse to every mongol.

edit: Although These stats are more ideal for Steppe Horses. The Fine Breeds used by Horse Nomads for their elite cavalry but not the Pony.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

If you can find an archive of the old weekly Pyramid, SE Mortimer did a pretty good article on horses that tracks well with yours.
It was done 04 June 2004.

RH

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Horse Sense. Indeed, I believe I cited it in this thread.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

You know, this is one of those topics that I wish would be expanded, organized, and formally published. Horses are useful in so many different genres. Now that so much is coming out in .pdf format, that seems like a perfect venue. What are the chances?

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

An important thing to consider should you ever choose to use horses in an Old Western setting is that most of the prices save for anything on CF used here are vastly inappropriate.

Your average horse in Maine in 1872 was $60 US, in that same time period in California where they caught horses roughly anywhere in the state a horse could cost as low as $6-10 before training. At the same time in Texas where good horseflesh was hard to acquire because of thieves etc horses were likely to cost from $100-175.

These are of course the historical figures, and I can't quite find the link to a comparative currency converter this website has a chart of values on it that could prove useful. http://mykindred.com/cloud/TX/Documents/dollar/

~~~~~~~~~~

I have found a comparative currency converter some few minutes after I posted the first link.
The $60 dollar horse in Maine is somewhere between $899 (GDP deflator), and $957 (CPI),

The roughly $10 horse is $150 (GDP deflator) and $160(CPI), a $40 horse would be $599(GDP deflator) or $638 (CPI)... The more expensive horses from Texas of course are commensurately higher, but definitely still less expensive than the horses of medieval Europe.

~~~~~~~~~~

The prices for horses I posted are correct, however the DATES for the figures from Texas and California were from 1858 instead of 1872 and I forgot to note that, they are still useful I hope even if more mathematics are needed to put them in context to the horse price from Maine in 1872.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

This calculator says that $100 in 1872 is worth $957 in 2004 dollars (the basis for the GURPS dollar).

What kind of horse is that $60 value for?

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I wouldn't use these prices as a base figure. In markets where supply is plentiful the price needs a negative modifier. Just like the price of gold during the gold rush.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Generally, if you want realistic prices for any particular setting in GURPS you have to research them yourself. The generic ones are vaguely consistent and easy to use, but don't match any one society well (except maybe ours). I have one set of figures for England around the year 1300, and another (much less complete) for Bronze Age/Iron Age antiquity.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

@godogma
can you site your source for the prices.Its really hard to research horse prices and every bit helps. thanks in advance. At least I can use this for my 19C game.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Are you planning on including disadvantageous horse traits? That could be useful for determining a good price for... 'less than new' horses.

-Joshua

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Even then, having "correct" prices might very well prove impossible.
Prices varied *greatly* from town to town and country to country, according to fashion, availability, last year's drought and so on...

Even in our hyper-standardized and globalized world, it is almost impossible to find out the fixed price for any given product.
E.g. computers and phones are marketed at different prices and conditions in different countries.
A bottle of the same average-quality wine might cost 1€ if you buy it from the producer (without the bottle), or 3€ in a cheap store, or 6€ in an expensive shop, or 15€ in an ordinary Italian restaurant, or 50€ in the same Italian restaurant if the customer is American or Japanese...

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

As I recall, the celts of then or a bit later did, but by tying a leather over-shoe over the hoof, and not by fixing an iron shoe to the foot (by nails historically, and with glue for modern aluminium racing shoes).

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I would disagree. Production Costs tend to boil down the same, up until variable costs of production (transportation, labor and acts of nature). Transportation and Marketing Cost have greatly influence pricing as of late. I'm not saying that there is an exact value for a given good, but there is a base value which has a negligible percentile difference from other items of very similar abilities (ex. smart phones).

In games, it is just a matter of making the circumstances around production aka the premises more transparent. Any good can have a change of prices, as long as there is way to account for differences.

Take the example you cited, the wine. Notice the Inventory and and Turn over Costs of each example you have given. Also consider the different overhead of each place, which goes up significantly. Not all the costs are precieved value, but there are some real substance as to why the cost is of that way.

Anyway, its prices of all other game elements should be more subject to variables and circumstances than what is printed. Although, I admit it would be a little bit text heavy if these details were furnished.

I have same complaints about irregularities on battle rifle prices when they in matters of 50-60% differences. Prices seem to be from a Producer Point of view, so Imported Guns or guns that don't have a US license of production are double the cost, which I find misrepresentative. If it is producer costs, follow producer costs and take out the importation and shipping costs from the base. Add on these modifiers per situation.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

You're not giving perceived value enough credit, production costs are meaningless when it comes to luxury items, just look at the velvet rope economics and the economics of elitism.

If a horse is a tool of the masses, a common beast of burden to do work and be ridden, then its value is closely related to the costs which go into bringing it to market.
However, if a horse is a status symbol, if owning a bigger and faster horse brings with it automatic respect and reputation, if it's something you can brag about at court and in other situations with your peers, then that horse's value is magnitudes higher.


Icelander in this thread has done a nice job of quantifying value which PCs may get out of having a particular horse and there's nothing wrong with using the values and details he's set down, but just like the listed CF of any items, don't for a minute think things in any realistic setting are sold at a price point based on PC usefulness.

The horse sired by a renown stallion and foaled in a named stable will fetch a price magnitudes higher than the horse produced by some unknown breeder, even if the latter is superior in every way.
Same way as a very fine sword made by some unknown master will fetch a pittance compared to the fine sword known to be made by the famous swordsmith, even if the latter has a rather overinflated reputation.

People don't pay for innate value when they buy luxury, they pay for perceived value, which is why an ounce of gold which has an innate value of a few dollars is currently priced at around $1200 instead of its actual value of around $40.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

As I've pointed out earlier in this thread, Low-Tech has rules for Luxury pricing, which in fact do not depend on utility and depend greatly on perceived social status of the buyers.

But that, in fact, is secondary to the GURPS $ value of the item, which is what you use when Cost intersects with rules for CPs and such.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Great article and I will be using this in my Forgotten realms game for sure.

A note on late 19th century prices of horses. i recall from my recent American History of Economics course that in the late 19th century the americal dollar could buy 1 oz of gold, meaning it was very powerful at the time which lead to many economic changes in the early 20th century.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Wrong. The basis of the GURPS dollar is the cost of bread (presumably a loaf) or a similar staple.

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Basic Set states that one GURPS dollar is one modern US dollar; this has been taken to mean one 2004 US dollar, that being the year GURPS was published. The High-Tech Designers' Notes (which is where I got the link to that calculator earlier in the thread) further state that 2004 dollars are “...the basis for all GURPS costs.”

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

I'll just point out that 1 oz of gold was ~$20 dollars in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, not $1. Dollar gold coins weighed in at just over 1.6 grams each, including impurities to add hardness to the coins.

And as far as I can tell, that price held from the very inception of the US dollar and eagle coins from the late 1700s until the early 1900s. There were some minor fluctuations in the gold content and some significant changes in the added metals--like silver and copper--based on metal prices, but the basic rule holds.

Still a world of difference from the price today, where a modern $25 eagle coin (they no longer use the old quarter eagle, half eagle, and double eagle terms as far as I can tell, but still have four different types of gold eagle coin) weighs in at 1/2 oz (roughly equivalent to the old eagle), but is actually valued on the market as worth ~$650 based on the metal content, instead of the $10 of the old eagle (double eagles were ~1 oz and worth $20).

Of course, actual prices in a boom town--especially a gold or silver rush town--could mean that $10 didn't buy much...at least if one wasn't a permanent resident of the town. And that wasn't always confined to boom towns...obviously wealthy folks were often charged more for the same item their servants bought at significantly lower prices. However, there were many things the servants couldn't buy at all...and those varied from just moderately expensive for the wealthy to unreal in price. Weirdly, to my mind, those unreal priced items often go up with a decrease in actual functionality.

The exception for the very wealthy seems to come from the fact that customers are competing for a limited supply. Claude--the great jeweler/fashion designer/chef/whatever--just makes a few whatevers in a year and if you have to ask how much it costs, you're automatically out of the competition. Even if Claude's products aren't really all that good, they are status symbols.

Considering how often people risked or paid with their lives or limbs to either earn or usurp the use of status symbols through history, I guess it shouldn't be too shocking to learn they'll pay cash. Lots of cash.

On the topic of horses...they did get cheaper as the supply of horses increased. And the supply increased enormously through the nineteenth century, even compared to the increasing demand for horses. But again, that's a general rule and might not have applied in a specific town at a specific time, since it is something that could vary locally, at least until the high prices paid someone to bring more horses in from elsewhere. Or the low prices paid them to take their horses elsewhere to sell.

Same rule applies to almost any commodity as long as competition is possible. But flips around and prices skyrocket once the customers are competing for a small amount of a commodity.

Even if the horse a rich man bought can't work a full day in the field, run all day across the steppe/plains, or even survive without a lush pasture and groom-filled barn, all it has to do is look good in front of a coach a few hours per week. There's other horses to do any real work around the place and to fetch groceries...if those aren't delivered by the grocer's workaday horse and cart. After all, there are only three horses that pretty in the whole darn country...and this rich guy owns one of them and everyone knows it; that's a big win to some people.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

Three cheers for Icelander updating Mortimer's article -- I didn't even realize it was 3E.

I'm finding the pricing conversation difficult to follow. I gather that there is disagreement whether Icelander's purchase prices are reasonable.

What about Mortimer's prices to maintain a horse (covering stable, feed, groom, etc.)? He suggests "Total costs run to around $330 per month for a regular horse and $690 per month for a warhorse." Is this reasonable? Is it better to assume a % of the purchase price instead of flat rates? Mortimer's prices seem to put a pack horse within range of a person making $675-800 per month (suggested TL3 wages for "Average" wealth), assuming the animal can be counted as part of the $600 cost of living for Status 0.

The wealth levels in GURPS are so abstract that I can't really grasp what they mean. Hopefully the new Low Tech companions will answer some of these questions, but does anybody here have any suggestions? I'm trying to figure out who (in terms of Wealth and/or Status) can or can't afford to own or maintain a pack, saddle, or war horse at TL3.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

What a farmer or a rancher can maintain as a working animal is vastly different than what a city dwelling cavalier can maintain by paying the stabler to feed and groom as a status animal.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

http://www.choosingvoluntarysimplici...-cost-in-1872/

The 1872 horse price is in the middle to end-ish paragraph area above the price list this very nice woman has posted out of her great*grandfather's personal journals. Which he kept for nearly every day of his life.

The 1858 horse prices came from an answer on allexperts.com, where I'm trying to get clarification - but evidently my question wasn't a question so I have to figure out a way to ask for expansion on a question he answered in 2006.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/U-S-Histo...rse-Prices.htm

Daniel Hogan is the expert in question.

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

thanks GoDogma :D

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

So no, Mortimer's prices aren't reasonable?

Re: Medieval Horse Types and Traits
 

You could totally create a setting and a place where those prices would be both reasonable and relevant, but Mortimer's prices aren't really generic or portable across settings.