Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

I suppose I should direct this at anyone with any experience or knowledge about sport fencing. How would you model a disengage off of a riposte? A disengage seems to either fall as a deceptive attack or a feint of a sort, though I'm not sure I could call it an AoA or a two-second attack, since fencing attacks are executed so quickly. Any thoughts?

Re: Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

Stupid counter-question: What does it actually DO?

Re: Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

A disengage is a fencing movement where you circle the tip of your blade under your opponent's hand guard as your opponent moves his blade to horizontally to parry your blade. The idea is to negate the parry by avoiding blade contact.

Normally, I'd consider a disengage a Deceptive Attack, but DA isn't legal for Riposte. However, it's not necessarily the case that a fencing riposte is a GURPS Riposte: my experience was that it wasn't any harder to defend before launch a riposte than to defend when I wasn't intending to launch a riposte. I'd treat a GURPS Riposte as a bind or envelopment: a more devastating followup that takes more effort to set up.

If you don't assume that a fencing riposte is a GURPS Riposte, then the sequence is simple: fighter A attacks on his turn and is parried by fighter B. Fighter B then declares he is "riposting with a disengage" as his attack on his turn, and makes an Attack with a Deceptive modifier.

Re: Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

I had thought of the disengage as a DA, also and had run into the same predicament. I never really thought that a fencing riposte isn't a Riposte, though. I'm not 100% sold on the idea, but it's another avenue.

My experience with riposte was that the idea was to counterattack before my opponent had recovered sufficiently from his lunge to defend himself. That struck me as fitting the idea of a Riposte pretty solidly, although now that I think about it, that might fall under Counterattack, as well.

So might the sequence be Fencer A parries Fencer B one turn and then launches into a Deceptive Counterattack?

Re: Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

I'm not sure the disengage even requires a DA. It's just one of the things you do to make it harder for the target to parry you; almost routine. Maybe you have an especially tricky disengage and riposte, or maybe not.

"Disengage off of a riposte" to me means the other guy riposted. So this is just the Attack on turn two. (Turn one is Attack - Riposte.)

Re: Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

I still don't get the probabilistic effect of a Disengage and the prerequisites for performing one.

And the fact that RW riposte and counterattack, 3e riposte and counterattack, and 4e riposte and counterattack are different doesn't help at all.

Sorry for being useless. :(

Re: Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

I'm not a fencer, so I'm not sure my opinion counts for much, but that sounds like exactly like what was described. Fencer A parries, and launches an attack that 1: begins before Fencer B has recovered from his attack (Counterattack), and 2: follows an attack path designed to make it difficult to parry (Deceptive Attack.)

The element of water works in the exact same way in Hsing-I.

Re: Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

I know this probably will not help the issue, but here is a tactical wheel for fencing....

http://www.lindajdunn.com/fencing/TacticalWheel.html

Re: Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

ok let me see if i can be of help.

so fighter A attacks (a simple thrust or lunge, doesn't matter). Fighter B defends (with a parry) and follows up with his Counterattack (making this a riposte in 2 time; ie the defense and attack are separate not simultaneous).

Fighter A now wishes to avoid being "offended" so he makes a Retreat defense roll (Basic Set- Campaigns pg 377); this gives a +3 to his dodge or +1 to Parry/Block and he gets to move 1/10 his move away (minimum of 1 yard). he is now disengaged...

is this what you are looking for? my fencing experience is from the SCA and ARMA (i follow Fabris and Thibualt manuals in my practice in my personal practice). i have never done sport/Olympic fencing, but i have faught some who have joined the SCA from that kind of fencing.

i hope this helped

Re: Stupid Question about Fencing [MA]
 

I'm really not convinced that a fencing parry and riposte has to modeled as a GURPS Counterattack or Riposte. A properly set up parry/riposte doesn't make it any harder to defend than a simple parry, so a GURPS Riposte isn't the best model. And a properly launched riposte isn't any harder to hit with than a basic fencing attack, so I'm not sure that a Counterattack is the right option.

I'm not saying that a fencing parry/riposte can't be modeled as a Counterattack or a Riposte. I am saying that if Fencer B does "Active Defense: Parry, then on my turn I make a Step and Attack with a Deceptive Attack -2" that might look like a parry/riposte to outside observers.