They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

The long-awaited, nearly mythical, Cabaret Chicks on Ice* will be upon us at some point in the future.

This I swear.

Aye, I've seen that fabled manuscript.

Now, in the long and indeterminable days of the wilderness years, many was the time we'd come across some gaming situation and say: "Hold! Verily, this be waste from a farmyard animal!" We woulds't then discuss it among ourselves, sometimes with the beneficent input of our eternal Line Editor, and perhaps even reach some sort of consensus about how this rule or that could be much improved. Depending on our current state of mind, we might end on a note either hopeful or forlorn, saying: "Forsooth, they should really change this in CCoI!".

Unfortunately, I am not as young as I was**. I can't be sure that I've remembered all of these stimulating discussions and all those patent solutions to the vexing problems of gaming with TL0-TL4 technology. But I would never forgive myself if I went through the playtest without at least bringing such issues to the notice of the Powers That Be***.

To clarify, I'm not looking for extra material. There is plenty of dancing girls and no shortage of ice. The main challenge of the playtest will not be how to fill the books, it will be how to avoid making them bloated abominations that threathen to burst their earthly bindings.

What I am looking for are cases where the rules as they currently stand were insufficient to describe something that happened in a game (set between TL0-TL4) and the forumites (perhaps even including Kromm) discussed how the rules could have been expanded upon. And after having gotten a pretty good answer, it made you think: "Wow, they should totally include that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice. It adds next to no complexity to the current rules and it makes it much easier to stat something that was historically common!"

Or even, some contentious subject was discussed for a long time and Kromm (or someone else) finally made a brilliant ruling that wasn't in the books. When asked why it wasn't official, he'd say: 'Okay, that might need looking into. How about we discuss it during the CCoI playtest?'

You got anything?

Of course, I'll give no credit where it's due, instead trying to appropriate your ideas as my own, all in a vain attempt to score points with the playtest moderators and perhaps get my name in very small letters somewhere no one will ever read it.

I'll even smoke a cigar in a small room with my cronies and think about ways to oppress the little man.

But you won't care, because you'll know you've made GURPS a better game.

Altruism. It was always my favourite sin. ;)

*Known to some as Low-Tech.
**... for example, five minutes ago, when I was five minutes younger.
***In order for them sigh and send me off with a stinging rebuke, most likely. "You! Again! Haven't we told you that no one cares about the inconsistencies in the weapon tables for midget hermaphrodites and how they might be improved with proper dwarf-tossing rules!

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I'm not sure if there is a section for vehicles in the new Low-Tech, but...

In Basic Set, High-Tech, Ultra-Tech, and Changing Times, the baseline formula for vehicles was HP = 4 x cube root (weight in lbs.).

However, in Fantasy, the formula was HP = 8 x cube root (weight in lbs.)

I imagine the reason was that "unpowered" vehicles are "homogeneous," but this creates serious game balance and plausibility issues.

A 500-ton TL 4 sailing ship should not have the same HP as a 4,000-ton TL 8 Perry-class frigate.

A 500-ton TL 4 sailing ship is NOT a homogeneous block of wood. It is an extremely complex machine...it just happens to rely on wind power rather than diesel power or steam power or whatever.

So, if there are vehicles in Low-Tech, I hope this is taken into account when determining their HP.

Mark

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I'll avoid making any comment that could be construed as revealing anything from the manuscript.

All I'll say is that do you really believe that if there was even the slightest chance that the Fantasy stats not being fixed, I wouldn't say something? ;)

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Am I the only one whose mind flashes to Granny Weatherwax preparing to suture a wound with a rusty hatpin, and saying "Let's do some good"?

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

You missed a few syllables. It's supposed to read "Cabaret Chicks on Icelander". I can certainly understand your apparent excitement about the project, my friend.

:)

-P.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

The thing my group has mentioned to me is, "They better fix the armour weights". I would add that I'd like to see options for more (and less) detail and the abilty to customise armour (so that I could more effectively model historical examples.)

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Again, I'll avoid any comments that might conceivably reveal secrets.

Dan Howard is one of the authors. Allow me to repeat, Dan Howard is writing a chapter. No prizes for guessing which one.

For those left flabbergasted by the above, Dan Howard is a well known armour guru, historical expert and grognard who has spent a good part of his adult years ranting and raving about historically incorrect armour in RPGs.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Is his material focused more on the ice, or the cabaret chicks themselves?

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

The costumes, of course!

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

It has been, after discussion with Kromm. Silly me, I took it that when the Basic Set said that vehicles with engines or other complex mechanisms were Unliving, it was implying that a rowboat or an oxcart was Homogenous. But then I checked the stats in the Basic Set and found that it was not so. I would not have done it that way, but it IS a precedent, so I've made the necessary changes.

Bill

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Sweet! If what he has written has any resemblance to his old Pyramid articles, I will be beyond happy.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Strong resemblance. Letters in a row going from left to right, spaces between them. English language. Roman alphabet. Practically identical.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Ha Ha. ahem...ha. You are a very funny (and evil) person. :)

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Will we ever see GURPS Eurovision? It seems deadlines come and go on that title.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

That'll never happen until the Balkan countries all stop voting for each other and start playing fair.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I do not have answers, but I do have some questions/commenst/complaints/flames/lipstick.

Travel rules:
Travel times. The rules in HT are better than the basic set ones, but seem overly harsh.. and further many people playing in low tech world will not have Hight tech. So at minimum have the HT rules there, but better to have full travel rules including using animals.

Food: the scrounging and carried food amounts needed for travel are very vague in basic and low weight. Also water use..

Production and value of stuff:
Many of the items in item list in basic set, specially lower tech armor seem just wrong from the standpoint of how long it takes to make them and the material cost.

Like for example the mail armors all seem very cheap compared to plate armors.

All items should have a cost that is at minimum material cost+labor cost.

For example the mail shirt at $230 would either cause the armorer to be very low paid or be very productive. Whereas historically making mail was fairly labor intensive process.

Also please make sure things have prices. A big problem with third edition low tech was that it listed a lot of things, but about only things it gave prices for were weapon, armor,vehicles and roman roads!

Weapon and armor weights:
Many are simply way wrong.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Chainmail vs. plated armor in GURPS. Are you paying for the weight? The labor? The performance? Arrows go right through plate armor. And it's heavy and it's bulky to move around in. The price could go down just because of that after it's made. GURPS prices may not be for armor collectors. ;)

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

That's an urban myth.

In actual fact, all countries exhibit some measure of correlation between historic ties with other countries and the preferential awards of points to those countries. The existence of an Eastern European 'bloc' of voting, however, can be conclusively disproven by analysis of the recent competitions.

Indeed, it is disengenius to maintain this after a competition in which two Nordic countries placed highest.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

As earlier noted, Dan Howard is involved in writing the book.

Anyone wishing to see his personal views of GURPS armour is invited to do a forum search on his name.

I think I can safely say that it would be unlikely if some changes were not suggested.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I don't know where else to state this (though it seems somewhat relevant here), and i'm unsure if it is a phenomena unique to this board, but it seems GURPS is quite popular in Europe.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Note to self: need more cabaret chicks

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

It rarely comes up in my games, but is brought up frequently here on the - now improved and upgraded! - forums: scaling low-tech armor and weapons up and down for creatures of different sizes and Size Modifiers.

So essentially bastard swords, mail, and helmets for Giants and Pixies.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Somehow, getting this response has made my day!

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Agreed. I've always wanted rules for the Connoisseur (Vapid Pop Music) skill.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

It's popular everywhere. And so are a lot of other games.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Personally, I'm looking forward to a treatment of different weapon materials, how is a TL 2 Iron Broadsword different from a TL 3 Steel Broadsword. Just how much better is Obsidian to Flint?

Like a lot of people, I'm also looking forward to a more advanced treatment of how to make things.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

One of the most confusing things about CCoI is Wealth and Status. Since that world is so different to that of today, it would help to touch up on some basics about the low TL mindset.

Fix the "Job" mindset that is confusing to most players when they deal with Low Tech. Explain that self sustaining, cottage industry aspect of daily life etc.

Complete Low TL Gear Load outs would be nice for the CCoI follow up books, as well as a bunch of comprehensive examples of what certain wealth levels have just so that the GM can use them as basis. Ideally no complicated system of creation that would take hours. Examples would be enough I figure.

Ex.
Poor- A 1 room house on a masters land
Struggling- Plot of land and small 2 room house, typically a tenant farmer .
Average- A small farm plot a 2 room house with an older house used as a barn
comfortable - a large plot for a farmer, a comfortable residence in one's liege lords manor land...etc.
Wealthy - villa in a town, or a manor tied to a small village, etc.
etc.


Responsibilities of these real Low Tech roles- duties and common problems and challenges of knights, manor holders, etc. Team based structure found (like a bunch of knight, yeomen, sergeants etc.).

Add some GURPS Mass Combat Details like examples of Armies of a Duke, King or Prince. Maybe a fast way of organizing one for a Game.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

It's just an optional specialization of Connoisseur (Music), actually.

Bill Stoddard

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Not sure if anyone else has had this come up in play, but rules/guidelines for transitioning from one TL to another (or perhaps somedescription of how TL (and culture) spread).

How does travel and trade influence the rapidity of knowledge diffusion?
What about guild law? Differences in local material inclusions (sand for clear glass? better oak trees?) or other factors?

I wouldn't expect a chapter on this, but at least a few paragraphs or better yet 2-3 pages on the short and long term effects of societies with different technologies interacting.

When my bronze spear wielding explorers shelter with a remote neolithic tribe for the winter I want to have some idea how to address the changes they are going to make in their host's abilities (if any).

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Just take it as an IQ penalty [-20], or perhaps Social Stigma (EWWWW!) [-20]


I jest... don't take this post seriously

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Or you could use the Mythos Fright Check rules from Cthulhupunk.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I'll scour the relevant sections to see how well that is handled. I note, however, that a lot of such details will likely come out below GURPS resolution (except maybe as regards breakage).

I believe that TPTB have promised such a system for the books. I will, of course, do my best to test aspects of it in my gaming.*

*Happily, I have a player whose PC has planned for the next session an expedition into a dwarven stronghold in order to have them forge a very special hammer for him.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Very true.

Of course, it should give you, just as it gives me, enormous satisfaction to know of the involvements of William Stoddard and Matt Riggsby when it comes to this kind of detail. If delivering a gameable version of real sociology was a sport, they'd be... well snorting ampheto-steroids and fighting legal battles, probably, but before that they'd be Olympic athletes.

All of these ideas sound good for follow-up volumes.

I would dearly like to see some follow-up to the Mass Combat system myself and the Loadout series is perfect for this, of course.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Everything I have ever read about CCoI there has never been a mention of costumes...

If the Chicks are wearing Costumes I aint gonna bite...

thats my 2 florins worth and I am unanimous in that!!

Edit:
of course if that minor issue is addressed I am planning on going "all in"

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

This does not address my anixety on the costuming front, or any other direction....

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Now, now; there are many ways to veil without hiding, if you know what I mean.

The utter absence of costume is nowhere near as entertaining as the presence of one that subtly threathens to abscond.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I re-read through a bunch of pages in the old Low-Tech about a week ago, and didn't find any new problems of significance.

There's a sidebar about silk, talking about how much mass and area of silk can be made per year per weaver, but nothing about how many items of clothing that will make (IIRC it was 6.4 lbs of silk per weaver, also stated as an area of cloth). I could try doing a back-of-the-envelope calculation myself, of course, but it's something that should be in the book.


Then there's my old question, about the way in which GURPS fails to simulate the fact that higher TL means you can make better swords. A swordsmith in a TL3 setting, with one level of Advanced TL, Limited to metalworking, doesn't gain any RAW benefits whatsoever. Nor with two levels. That's really the main problem that I see.


Getting some more stuff about agriculture, number of cows per square mile and so forth, would be good, but I already have such figures myself, grabbed from Jeff Wilson's "Fantasy Agriculture" web article and a few others. I was just reminded by it because I've just re-read parts of the "Pagan Shore" supplement for Pendragon, which suggests 20 dairy cows on a 100 acre field, which doesn't sound quite right to me.


edit: Oh, one thing I forgot: Shipbuilding technology. Viking ships were "clinker built" which was supposed to be noticably superior to other TL3 ships, in terms of both sturdiness and performance, but nowhere in GURPS Low-Tech or Vehicles is this reflected.

Also note that I'm not particularly interested in making GURPS a better game. My perspective is that of someone using GURPS supplements as ressources for other RPG systems.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Some discussion of realism versus good game would also be valuable, in the section adding more detail to the armour rules.

If armour is too light, then all the PCs will opt for the heaviest armour that they can afford, which kills variety and stomps on its corpse. Likewise if armour is too heavy, no PC will ever wear any. I don't want either of those to occur.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Oh yes. I'm currently trying to pump some Usenet horse people for knowledge about what horses can do under various circumstances.

Especially, don't just cover the standard assumption, of each player character owning one horse. Also deal with courier horse relays where the rider can change hourse 5 or 10 or 38 times a day, or one rider owning multiple horses which he can alternate between.

If the mounted travel rules takes into account the stats of the mounts (HT, FP, Fit/Unfit or not, Move and Enhanced Move) then it becomes much easier to produce non-GM-dependent answers about how high-quality mounts differ from normal-quality mounts (including attempting to answer how much more a high-quyality mount would cost compared to a normal-quality mount - yes I know the core books answers this, but if Low-Tech changes the mounted travel rules then the cost multiplier for Fine/Very Fine mounts should perhaps also change).

Also makes it a lot easier to provide non-GM-dependent answers to questions about what various spells, powers and permanent magics do to horses.

For instance, it is my understanding that real-world horses cannot have Very Fit; only humans and a very few other mammals (such as canines) can. So what would the consequence be, in terms of travel performance, if a horse is magically granted Very Fit?

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

One approach to RPG design is that it isn't so important what the sword is made of, whether it is iron or steel, but what the final quality is, e.g. in terms of GURPS' Poor, Good, Fine or Very Fine. It is simply that making a better sword is easier if you have steel to work with than if you only have iron, and much harder if you are trying to do it with silver.

Information abuot what material the sword is made of should of course still be kept, because it may have social or supernatural consequences, e.g. if you visit a culture where they don't know about steel making, or if some monsters can take half damage from steel but full damage from iron. My point is just that the material won't necessarily have any game-mechanical consequences for the owner - it already had its consequences, when the sword was made.


That's one take on the interaction of metal and weaponmaking, but I'm actually not sure whether it is the best.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

There's already a published 4E book that does this, and I'm pretty sure it is GURPS Fantasy.

edit: except of course that that list does it the way it ought to be done, rather than the way you proposed, by basing it not on Wealth but on Cost-of-Living.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Yes, but Peter, your quest for non-GM-dependent ways of doing things strikes me as, well, a personal obsession of yours that has nothing to do with good gaming. You're like Lord Vetinari wanting to read music off the printed page because letting musicians get involved just spoils it . . . or a fan of a book who objects to any hint of a film director's having a personal vision.

Role-playing games are a participatory art in which the GM is the principal creator. Their individual utilization of the game rules and the game setting (if there is one) ADDS VALUE to the game for their players. A good game book is one that facilitates the GM's personal creativity. It's a springboard, not a monorail. And GURPS Low-Tech, like all GURPS books, is intended to provide that sort of resource to GMs.

Bill Stoddard

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I think the "how to do very fine spears, axes, etc" thing qualifies as it was blessed by a krommsponse.

Other than the many obvious concerns that I'm sure are getting addressed (by Dan) and the general extra delicious quality and sexyness of the chicks by the quality of the writers and editors on this one... I can't remember any more off the top of my head.

I would like the more elegant system of Cost Factor (CF) being generalized outside of DF. But that's not what the topic is about, there's plenty of wishes flying about.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Wasn't there some discussion a while ago about generalized equipment quality rules.
Something that takes the craftsmanship idea another step and makes it not just for swords, or swords, spears & axes, but to anything hand crafted by an expert.
Wasn't there a set of high quality lock picks that gave a skill bonus? or was that in 3E? Anyway, a generalized (dare I say Generic) ruleset for crafting items should include some consideration for fine and very fine products.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I'd rather avoid that. CF is purely additive, which works for DF since it's inherently quick-and-dirty. In a more fully-fleshed-out universe, you might want to consider that e.g. it's harder to give Meteoric Iron a Very Fine edge than it is for normal steel, so CF would be multiplicative instead of additive.

In other words, I don't see any value in generalizing CF rules out of DF because CF is a very genre-specific assumption.

-Max

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

On the other hand, multiplicitive modifiers do not seem to meet the reality check for most weapons and armour. It is explicitly not harder or more expensive to make a sword of the finest materials well balanced than it is to make a sword made out of poor steel balanced. In any real world sense, additive modifiers serve to adequately model how the quality of the materials and the design are seperate and these elements do not meaningfully influence the cost of each other.

As for the specific example given, Dungeon Fantasy 'Meteoric Iron' is a fantastic material with little or not necessary resemblence to a real world substance. It is not necessarily harder to work than normal steel, unless the GM particulary wants it to be (in which case he'd adjust the cost).

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

This works fine if you're playing in a world that is uniformly TL 3. There was a time when swords of all qualities would have been available, but they would all be made of bronze. Even the Very Fine Bronze swords must have been inferior to Very Fine Iron swords, or bronze would have stayed in use. It may be a matter of weight, breakage, cost, time to make, etc... rather than damage, but there was some reason that some materials replaced others in higher tech levels.

More to the point, if I play a character from TL 2 in a TL 3 campaign, I'm getting 5 points for it. My fine iron Broadsword would be great when we encounter faeries, but it shouldn't be identical to the steel swords of my companions in every other respect.

Similarly, an obsidian arrow head is demonstrably sharper than steel, but it may be too brittle to deal with armor, etc....

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

For a material to have (and keep) a Very Fine edge, it has to be hard enough that the edge doesn't roll or dull easily, even when it hits something hard like bone, wood, or metal, and tough enough that it doesn't chip out. In the real world, this is a tricky balancing act. An optimal steel formulation, given proper heat treatment, and skillfully sharpened, will get you there. Soft iron won't ever get you there, neither will copper. Bronze might, I suppose, but AFAIK bronze is more fragile than weapons-grade steel and would probably chip out, if the blade itself didn't break first. Same with, say, obsidian. I don't know whether silver runs to soft or brittle but I understand it's a lousy weapon material. In a more realistic game, none of those materials should be allowed to have a VF edge, period.. so the question of how much it would cost is moot.

With a fantasy material that exceeds the physical limits of steel, it shouldn't be much harder to make a VF edge than it is to make a normal edge. In this case, you have three cost factors:

- The material itself, which may (or may not) be prohibitively expensive. This is independent of the other two.
- Working the material into a blade. If the material is very finicky (needs a very precise heat treatment, or special tools or rituals) then you may have to pay a premium for a smith with a high skill level or knowledge of the secret techniques. If the material is merely extremely hard and tough, then a normal smith could probably work it, but require more time, or you may need to find a specialist again (other special tools or rituals). On the other hand, perhaps a truly wondrous material is easy to work, as if answering the desire of the smith.
- Putting a VF edge on it.* The more superior the material is to steel, the easier (cheaper) this ought to be, up to the point where any correctly-made blade is automatically VF. (Alternately, you could extend the range up to Super Fine, and, say, Ultra Fine.. though note that any edge better than Super Fine is probably monomolecular, or exceeds the limits of material science.)

So, I'm not sure what qualities you imagine Meteoric Iron to have compared to ordinary weapons-grade steel (or which ones DF may have assigned it); if it's a lesser material, then it should probably be forbidden to have a VF edge at all. If it's a greater material, then it should actually cost less to put a VF edge on.. but using one generic additive modifier is probably not too distant from reality, and avoids excessive charts and/or calculations in weapon design.


* Note that working the blade and putting the edge on are interrelated. For instance, Japanese swordsmiths folded their blades multiple times in order to increase the quality of the steel, and to avoid weak spots being caused by impurities, and in doing so created the potential for the blade to have a VF edge; is this "working the blade", or "creating the edge"? It's both. Likewise for heat treatment. But for the sake of demonstrating what costs are involved in bladesmithing and how they can vary, it's easier to pretend they're two separate things.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Eh, in the real world, cost is an excellent reason for one material to replace another.

Bronze isn't particularly brittle or soft. It's in many ways an excellent material for armour, being denser than iron/steel, for example. But bronze is an order of magnitude rarer than iron, making it more expensive.

Sometimes the tech level advantage is just to make it cheaper to make the same thing out of other materials.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I thought it was too brittle to use for larger blades?

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

That's a myth, I believe.

Depending on tin content, bronze can be a much better material than wrought iron for many applications. Only high-quality steel is better than bronze for weapon and armour.

Iron replaced bronze due primarily to being cheaper.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I'm sorry but this reminds me of the end of saving private Ryan when he shoots the tank with his pistol
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUmLaUlACp8 about 4 minutes into this vide0)

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I defer to your greater expertise with weapons. However, whether the "real" cost model is multiplicative or a multivariate function of some sort is ancillary to the real point which is that CF is oversimplified and not really appropriate outside DF.

-Max

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

You can see some examples of bronze swords 75-100 cm long here
and here. Bronze broadswords are probably TL 2, but they do exist, and apparently work as well as most TL 2 steel blades.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

There is a very good reason for switching to iron.

Making bronze means using tin. That means importing from the British Isles. That means that you have to not only pay for the expense of shipping, but also give the Phoenicians their cut. Iron ore, by comparison, is everywhere.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

One type of bronze is made with copper and arsenic.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Not really. Arsenic alloys were only used before tin was widely used and arsenic never appears to have been deliberately added. Analysis of ancient smelting sites in Africa indicate that the level of aresenic in the local ores are the same as the levels of arsenic in finished tools and weapons. Inother words they just smelted anything "green" they could find and kept the best results for weapons and tools. It is a pure fluke that the best ores available at the time contained arsenic.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

You'd better get used to it. CF will apparently be the standard in future publications. Low Tech will definitely be using it.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Now that an author has seen fit to confirm it, it's probably fine to admit that, yes, the CF system will be used in Low-Tech.

As to concerns that it's over-simplified, I note that additive modifiers were introduced in GURPS Martial Arts and this system is nothing more or less than a more elegant way to present modifiers such as +100% cost or x2 cost.

The final result is the same whether you use the system from MA or the Cost Factors. Cost Factors merely avoid the cludgy notations of +400% and such.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

See, that's a level of detail that I'd like to see. Iron can make cheaper weapons, bronze is heavier and more expensive, but might have a higher DR, etc....

Of course, in a fantasy world, how rare and expensive certain materials are may vary according to GM fiat, but I've always favored using the real world as a starting point.

Really? Did the Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites, and Greeks all use tin from Britain in their Bronze weapons? Or did early TL 2 Bronze contain tin and TL 1 Bronze was made differently?

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

"As of 2001, the oldest tin mine found is in the Taurus Mountains in Turkey, but younger but still ancient tin mines are located in Spain, Brittany, and Great Britain. Mining of tin ore started in the Scilly Isles[25] and Cornwall around 2000 BC, and securing these strategically important sites is one reason why the Romans invaded and occupied Great Britain." (Wikipedia)

Important to note, however, is that tin mines run out, and tin mines need to be discovered and need to be accessible to mining technologies of the era. Tin was discovered this century in asia - I'm not sure if they are at all near enough to the surface for TL 1 miners though. Or if the cornwall tin mines are, either.

There's not much tin out there, but even less of it is conveniently 50-80 feet or closer to the surface, which was basically the limit of accessability for TL1 miners IIRC. That all is going to get dug up very quickly.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Thanks Bruno, that answers my question. It seemed implausible to me that the Egyptians and Assyrians and everyone else in the TL 1 ancient near east were using tin from as far away as Britain.

Turkey and Spain would have been much more accessible, and there may have been small tin mines closer to the earliest civilizations that just didn't leave an archaeological record.

Seems like Tin could be an excellent "Unobtanium" for a TL 1 campaign.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

The difference in effectiveness (as opposed to price) between a bronze blade, an iron blade and a low-quality steel blade are almost certainly below the resolution of GURPS. Sorry, but at some point, we just have to say: 'Eh, it's pretty much the same end result'.

Rest assured, though, in those cases where there is a difference between something, the writers will in most cases care more than enough about their subjects to ensure that the game stats reflect this.

The real world as a starting point and a familar benchmark to aid visualisation is what attracted me to GURPS. Making judgment calls is far easier if the numbers and rules represent concrete things.

Maybe Bob the Barbarian is stronger, faster and hardier than any mortal man, but at least we can quantify by how much. ;)

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Is that going to be fixed, then? Because B275 seems to be of the opinion that the difference in price may be below resolution but the difference in effectiveness is not.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

The sections on different materials will differ from B275, yes.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

This would be much goodness. I just finished a full house-rule creation of overland travel, simply using the HT rule & extending it to mounts. Travel rate determined by encumbrance (ie: the PC & his crap) with per hour Fatigue costs, which make having either a pack animal or relay mount, Traveling on a lighter horse, with your warhorse loaded & ready but not mounted, etc as options.

I found the chariot/cart/carriage rules kind of wrote themselves at that point. Ie: Encumbrance shared among multiple creatures.

Anyway, While I have my rules to use NOW, but I'll look forward to more "solid" rules.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

AFAIK yes they did use tin. The only thing I'm not 100% sure about is whether the British isles were really the only source of tin, in that era, but if it was then that's where they imported it from.

Also note the old legend about Joseph of Arithmatea(sp?) who donated his grave cave to Jesus of Nazareth. He was a Jewish tin merchant, arranging the transport of tin from Britain to the Middle East - that's why some legends suggest that the Holy Grail, or the Spear of Destiny, or both, are in Britain - they were carried by Joseph.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I'm not particularly convinced that GURPS overland travel rules interact properly with Fit and Very Fit, so that's one thing I'd like to see addressed.

Another is whether horses (and other mount animals) can have Very Fit at all, or if (as I'm inclined to assme) it is a taboo trait for them. And some information about how rare Fit horses are, in terms of a cost multiplier or CF or whatever.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

It should be extremely rare. In fact, most animals should have Unfit - humans are built for endurance running. See also this.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

The world's oldest tin mine is actually in Turkey. Spain and Brittany had some ancient ones, too (and I'm sure there were early non-European ones I don't know about). Britain was a major source in its day (one reason the Romans considered it strategic), but it wasn't the only source by any means. (See Bruno's earlier post, which notes the same thing.)

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

According to Shawn Fisher, horses can have Very Fit. And if we ever get an e23 book on equines, he'd be the most likely to write it, so I think that's reasonably likely to become official at some point in the future.

As for guidelines on horse cost based on Fit and other factors, I'd like to see that in Low-Tech as well. Here's hoping that the Powers That Be agree.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

This, in a way, is the problem. One of the issues with ancient mines is that improving mining and smelting technology tend to insure that good mines get worked over for a very long time, with later workings blowing away any traces of earlier workings. So while trace quantities of tin have been found in a few places easily accessible to Mediterranean Bronze Age civilizations, there's no clear evidence of their use during that time. Consequently, people have tended to fall back on the idea of a prehistoric trade in tin from places like Cornwall, which is known to have been mined that early, though there's no clear evidence that tin from there was shipped so far away.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

I agree that Fit or Very Fit should be rare. I would think you'd only see animals with Fit in animals being specially trained (courier horses say), or special cicumstances (alpha bull or lioness, say).

I don't know that I agree with Unfit; I think that the state for the animal should be the "average". Now maybe some Domesticated animals or animals in zoos would have that disadvantage....

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Yep. The alluvial tin deposits in Anatolia were definitely exploited during the Bronze Age.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

But should these traits come with a hefty Unusual Background? Or is the human-outmarathoning-the-horse a myth?

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

As it happens, I hold a different view than Shawn here. You might want to ask him his reasons, as he is much more knowledgable about horses than I am.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Wow, this part of the thread led me off into some interesting "fast research" paths - I had NO idea that they held "100 miles in one day" (24 hours) marathons for horse riders. Winners times since 1961 average out at just under 14 hours, over rough varied terrain, but with 8 spaced Veterinarian checkups over the route. (Source: Tevis Cup)

Additionally, there are 100 mile marathons run for humans, with one race called the "Western States 100 Mile Endurance", inspired by the Tevis cup, with what looks like similar terrain. The RECORD for that course is 15.5 hours, with this years winner being 16 hours. (Source: http://www.run100s.com/ultra.htm)
(Interesting note: REALLY "inspired by" - the fellow who started the Western States Race did so by running IN the Tevis along with the horses to "prove it could be done by a human". He finished in 23 hours 42 Minutes, against a 13 hour 55 Minute finish for the horse winner.)
(Procedural Note: I was just going to use the finish times averaged in that run100s link, but several of the races are unusual formats. Ex: A race held at 10,000'+ altitude for almost it's entire length, or in the Arctic in February)

I'd also mention, in addition to the very interesting Kudu hunt link posted by Asta, There's this Man v. Horse Marathon held every year in Wales & it took 25 years for the first human win.

OTOH, please note, none of the humans in any of these races is carrying a rider. :)

Finally - one thing I'll note about the difference between Cursorial hunting (As in that Kudu hunt link) and a "straight race" is that in hunting using endurance you would be working at "spooking" the animal and getting it to waste endurance (HT), so that you can pace it and take your time, and conserve your HT. I'll also note that I wouldn't want to try endurance hunting one of those horses that ran in the Tevis. :)

So:
A) If a horse can do 100 Miles in under 14 hours, I think they should be allowed to take Very Fit. :)
B) Humans ARE slower than _horses_ over the short and long haul, but it's not by as much as you mght think.
C) I'm feeling REALLY out of shape, right about now...

Disclaimer: Hey, I found all this stuff, I don't swear to it's accuracy and please remember that these are ALL stripped-down racers, and only applies to horses, so I don't to get any angry email from Camels and please, please, please, don't start the "Hiking" thread back up again. :)

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Heheheheheheh....

Not laughing at you, Peter. Laughing because Fit, Very Fit, Unfit, and Very Unfit were originally created for horses, making this an ironically funny discussion!

Don't believe me? Buy Roleplayer #21, from the early days of GURPS Third Edition, and read the article The Noble Steed, by Ann Dupuis. She created the fitness traits specifically to better describe how close to ideal health a horse is.

So yeah. A horse can definitely have Very Fit. :)

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Actually, it's available on the sjgames Website:
The Noble Steed

I guess Peter's issue is how it interacts with the travel rules, which I'm not sure I see a problem with.

Re: They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
 

Wouldn't it be better to simply give most animals fewer FP? As I recall, Fit (and Very Fit, Unfit, etc.) isn't supposed to be a racial trait at all.