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Steven Marsh 05-06-2009 09:30 PM

Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech

Tour Guides Wanted!

GURPS Low-Tech will be taking players and GMs on a guided tour of past technology. If you're well informed about tools, weapons, armor, vehicles, and other technologies, in any era from the Stone Age to the Age of Sail, come join the expedition. Help us find our way through the winding paths of technological evolution—and keep us from getting lost.

The playtest will cover GURPS Low-Tech itself as well as three GURPS Low-Tech Companion PDFs to be released on e23. The core book is devoted to equipment lists and game mechanics; the Companion volumes provide cultural and historical context, additional and alternate rules, and construction systems for several types of equipment. Thus, while we'll expect a careful review of game mechanics and historical accuracy, an additional important goal is to check for consistency between these four related works.

Places will be reserved for new playtesters, both to find out how clear the books are to readers with less GURPS experience, and to expand the pool of experienced playtesters for future books. Don't hesitate to apply!

The one-month playtest will depart on May 15.

Playtesters will need access to and familiarity with the GURPS Basic Set, and we'll give extra weight to applicants who are conversant with GURPS High-Tech (for cross-TL comparisons) and/or GURPS Martial Arts (to check weapons, of course!). Familiarity with Bio-Tech, Ultra-Tech, or the Third Edition version of Low-Tech can be an asset, as well. Prospective playtesters will also need to be registered e23 customers who have spent more than $50 at e23 in the past 12 months.

Prospective playtesters should e-mail jwilson@io.com with [LT] (for "Low-Tech") in the subject, and include your preferred e-mail address for the closed playtest mailing list, correct spelling of your name as it may appear in print, your e23 login name, and a few words about your qualifications, experience, and current gaming group(s). Please submit in this format:

Quote:

johndoe@etheremail.com
Jonathan Doe
johndoegamer
I'm a longtime credited playtester and lead playtester for GURPS 3e and 4e. I have an ongoing fantasy game wherein the PCs routinely craft and use low-tech weapons. I have a PhD in Greek history and do Roman legion reenactments. One of my players is a professional blacksmith who makes swords and mail for Ren Faire. Another is a 20-year SCA member who dyes her own wool.
Thank you for your interest. Adventure awaits!

Žorkell 05-07-2009 10:23 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
I just have to ask.

Is Jeff Wilson the only Lead Playtester, or is it just a fluke that he's been the Lead Playtester of a few of the recent books?

jeff_wilson 05-07-2009 01:19 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Žorkell
I just have to ask.

Is Jeff Wilson the only Lead Playtester, or is it just a fluke that he's been the Lead Playtester of a few of the recent books?


I seem to be or have been the most available of the people able and willing to serve, and the more familiar one is with the author and to the presiding editor, the more likely one is to be asked again, and so forth.

You're asking becasue you want to be reassured that I'm doing such a good job that I will never have to be replaced, right?

Icelander 05-07-2009 01:41 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson
I seem to be or have been the most available of the people able and willing to serve, and the more familiar one is with the author and to the presiding editor, the more likely one is to be asked again, and so forth.

You're asking becasue you want to be reassured that I'm doing such a good job that I will never have to be replaced, right?

I think he's asking because he wants to know if the position is open to applications Rex Nemorensis-style. ;)

whswhs 05-07-2009 01:45 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander
I think he's asking because he wants to know if the position is open to applications Rex Nemorensis-style.

The priest who slew the slayer/And shall himself be slain?

Bill Stoddard

Icelander 05-07-2009 02:25 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs
The priest who slew the slayer/And shall himself be slain?

Bill Stoddard

If it is, Jeff had better be waiting with ready sword and wary eyes, for there will be no shortage of those ready to engage in such Scythian practises for the chance to be lead playtester. ;)

Crakkerjakk 05-07-2009 02:30 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander
... engage in such Scythian practices ...

But Žorkell is from Iceland. It's the wrong geographic region!

EDIT: I really wish I could apply for this, but the timing is horrible. I'm graduating next month and still need to finish building an experimental rig to ship to Houston by the end of the month. Curse the fates!

Pmandrekar 05-07-2009 02:57 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander
If it is, Jeff had better be waiting with ready sword and wary eyes, for there will be no shortage of those ready to engage in such Scythian practises for the chance to be lead playtester. ;)

I've seen Jeff at the ready. He can hold his position.

-P.

Žorkell 05-07-2009 08:46 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson
You're asking becasue you want to be reassured that I'm doing such a good job that I will never have to be replaced, right?

Well, yeah, kinda.

Though I think your hopes for immortality are optimistic...

tg_ambro 05-12-2009 08:55 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
How will I know if I am accepted into the playtest or not?

Kelly Pedersen 05-12-2009 08:59 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tg_ambro
How will I know if I am accepted into the playtest or not?

It's scheduled to start on the 15th. On the 15th, or possibly the day before, you'll be sent an e-mail with links to the playtest rules and the documents, if you've been accepted. If you don't start getting a pile of mail in your inbox by Monday, you can probably safely assume you haven't been accepted.

tg_ambro 05-12-2009 09:01 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Thank you muchly

macphersonrants 05-12-2009 09:34 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Based on past experience, they will probably be sending out notifications in the next day or two.

umbros 05-15-2009 08:05 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
It's now the 15th. Has the playtest started and have the selected playtesters been contacted?

Žorkell 05-15-2009 08:25 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by umbros
It's now the 15th. Has the playtest started and have the selected playtesters been contacted?

Yes, and yes.

umbros 05-15-2009 11:19 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Oh well, looks like I washed out again. :(
I wonder why? The slots must be very limited or the competition very fierce.

Not another shrubbery 05-15-2009 11:30 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by umbros
Oh well, looks like I washed out again. :(
I wonder why? The slots must be very limited or the competition very fierce.

Luck of the draw *shrug* Just keep applying for the playtests that interest you to give yourself the best shot at getting in.

whswhs 05-15-2009 11:37 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by umbros
Oh well, looks like I washed out again. :(
I wonder why? The slots must be very limited or the competition very fierce.

We had about 50% more applicants than we had places for a playtest of manageable size. I suppose you could call that fierce competition. Ultimately, we always end up with some marginal choices: applicants who could almost equally well be included or excluded. There wasn't any overpowering reason for you not to be included, and I encourage you to go on applying.

In fact, this time around, at least, there were no applicants who caused any of the half dozen people whose opinions were considered to say, "Get them off the bus!" Just trying to pick the people whose applications suggested a little something extra.

I suppose you could say, "Well, why not include everyone?" But experience has shown that as playtest size increases, the number of added useful comments does not go up in proportion to the number of commenters, whereas the sheer administrative difficulty goes up more than in proportion . . . difficulty not just for the LP and the author(s) but for the other playtesters, who can be overwhelmed by the sheer mass of discussion. Different authors have different senses of what's a good size; I tend to feel that around 30 general purpose playtesters is right, plus a few extraordinary candidates who don't count against the general quota—for example, published GURPS authors. But wherever we set the numerical threshold, some people are not going to get in, not because of any major sin or flaw, but just because they didn't stand out as "gotta have 'em" candidates. If you can suggest qualities that make you a "gotta have 'em" for a future playtest, that's the best way to sell yourself.

Of course, they need to be qualities you actually have. Exaggerating your own merits is a great way to never get a second playtest, and I am not for a moment suggesting it. Use Diplomacy, not Fast-Talk. . . .

Bill Stoddard

umbros 05-15-2009 12:02 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Thanks for the response guys, It's very enlightening and makes me feel somewhat better. I can't help being disappointed though, this was one I really wanted to be involved in.

Kromm 05-15-2009 12:07 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
We had 30 slots and 45 applicants, exclusive of supernumeraries (i.e., staff and contributors). As a result, a third of applicants were doomed to be left out. Nobody was punted for a weak application, though – and there was a random element (as random as Excel ever is, anyway). Bill has already explained why we couldn't simply boost playtest size by 50% to avoid all that. Basically, it's a matter of time . . . the hours needed for the writers and editors to read and fairly review all of the input.

umbros 05-15-2009 12:23 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
I understand what you are saying, I was on the Martial Arts playtest and the volume of posts was almost overwhelming. I imagine that if you, as an author, had to read and to respond to all of those you wouldn't want the threads to get out of hand or duplicate themselves. Not if you wanted to have a life away from the screen anyway.

Kromm 05-15-2009 12:53 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
For the curious, here are the final closing volumes for several playtests of important core books with which I was involved:
  • GURPS Basic Set: 3,292 posts
  • GURPS Bio-Tech: 2,332 posts
  • GURPS Martial Arts: 3,349 posts
  • GURPS Powers: 2,372 posts
  • GURPS Space: 1,659 posts
  • GURPS Thaumatology: 4,720 posts (!)
These are good to within about ±5%. The error is a consequence of the occasional double-post or accidentally deleted item. If we take the average above, we get 2,954 posts. Volume is definitely linear in list membership, so a 50% increase in list size naively means +1,477 posts to read. It's easy to appreciate how that could cut back on efficiency!

Turhan's Bey Company 05-15-2009 12:55 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
For the curious, here are the final closing volumes for several playtests of important core books with which I was involved:
  • GURPS Basic Set: 3,292 posts
  • GURPS Bio-Tech: 2,332 posts
  • GURPS Martial Arts: 3,349 posts
  • GURPS Powers: 2,372 posts
  • GURPS Space: 1,659 posts
  • GURPS Thaumatology: 4,720 posts (!)

<LLoydBridges movie=Airplane>
Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop smoking.
</LLoydBridges>

Kuroshima 05-15-2009 01:34 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
For the curious, here are the final closing volumes for several playtests of important core books with which I was involved:
  • GURPS Basic Set: 3,292 posts
  • GURPS Bio-Tech: 2,332 posts
  • GURPS Martial Arts: 3,349 posts
  • GURPS Powers: 2,372 posts
  • GURPS Space: 1,659 posts
  • GURPS Thaumatology: 4,720 posts (!)
These are good to within about ±5%. The error is a consequence of the occasional double-post or accidentally deleted item. If we take the average above, we get 2,954 posts. Volume is definitely linear in list membership, so a 50% increase in list size naively means +1,477 posts to read. It's easy to appreciate how that could cut back on efficiency!

Yeah, the MA playtest was hectic, but the THM one was real nuts, and Phil Master's health problems made it even worse. In the end, the book ended up being top notch though.

BTW, are you still selecting playtest applicants as you were? meaning, that, after selecting those on basis of merits, you pick a number of them based on how fast they applied, and then randomize the rest?

whswhs 05-15-2009 01:39 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
Volume is definitely linear in list membership, so a 50% increase in list size naively means +1,477 posts to read.

That's interesting to know. It provides a good baseline for modeling cost/benefit tradeoffs.

On the other hand, the actual cost of dealing with posts may not be linear in the number of costs. At least one component is going to be sorting out which posts relate to which other posts—and that could go as N(N-1)/2, or roughly quadratically. Thread tracking takes it back toward linearity, perhaps, but between thread breaks and threads that cross-relate to points in other threads, I don't think it gets all the way there.

Bill Stoddard

whswhs 05-15-2009 01:50 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuroshima
BTW, are you still selecting playtest applicants as you were? meaning, that, after selecting those on basis of merits, you pick a number of them based on how fast they applied, and then randomize the rest?

Not this time. We did pick about 50% of the regular playtesters on obvious merit of several types. But for the rest, we didn't randomize, nor did we pay any attention to speed of application, as long as they were in the main clump that came in over the first few days. Rather, we looked at subtle quanta of merit or desert, including "never playtested before," and often somewhat subjective. Then we negotiated about a few of the marginal choices, and moved one or two people from No to Yes, with the corollary of moving one or two people from Yes to No to keep the numbers stable. For example, I requested that one person be included because they were knowledgeable about the subject of one of my chapters that not many playtesters emphasized in their applications. . . .

Bill Stoddard

tg_ambro 05-15-2009 02:51 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Good Stuff to know, I am hopeful of joining an interesting playtest in the future. I have an idea for a book proposal (as I'm sure many do), so working in a playtest will help me understand the process a little better.

pyratejohn 05-15-2009 03:06 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
If we take the average above, we get 2,954 posts.

In how many days time? Two weeks?

Kromm 05-15-2009 03:30 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs

But for the rest, we didn't randomize

The list you worked from actually did include a randomized cohort: I used Excel to pick names at random. Sorry if I didn't make that clear!

Kromm 05-15-2009 03:34 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pyratejohn

In how many days time? Two weeks?

Playtests for large books typically run for about a month – and that's a generous definition of "month," closer to 30 weekdays or six calendar weeks. Which means that a 50% increase in list membership translates as roughly an extra 50 posts to read each workday. Even if they all took a minute to scan, that's almost an extra hour in the day . . . and most take more than a minute to truly grasp, relate to other posts, etc.

Gavynn 05-15-2009 03:34 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
The list you worked from actually did include a randomized cohort: I used Excel to pick names at random. Sorry if I didn't make that clear!

What? Your the Line Editor for a roleplaying game. If you needed a random element I would have though you would have had the decency to throw dice.

:)

Kromm 05-15-2009 03:36 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavynn

I would have though you would have had the decency to throw dice.

I actually did do that for one playtest! However, it took surprisingly long owing to the number of applications and limited choice of dice sizes. Excel is cool in that it lets you roll d47 and d58.

demonsbane 05-15-2009 05:36 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
The list you worked from actually did include a randomized cohort: I used Excel to pick names at random. Sorry if I didn't make that clear!

Omg! LOL

Anyway I'm sure it will be a great 4e book.

whswhs 05-15-2009 05:57 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
The list you worked from actually did include a randomized cohort: I used Excel to pick names at random. Sorry if I didn't make that clear!

Ah. My misunderstanding. You mentioned specific reasons for picking some people out of that batch of 30, so I figured you had specific reasons for all of them.

Bill Stoddard

Žorkell 05-15-2009 08:56 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Oh....what did I get myself into...

Pmandrekar 05-15-2009 09:02 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
For the curious, here are the final closing volumes for several playtests of important core books with which I was involved:
  • GURPS Basic Set: 3,292 posts
  • GURPS Bio-Tech: 2,332 posts
  • GURPS Martial Arts: 3,349 posts
  • GURPS Powers: 2,372 posts
  • GURPS Space: 1,659 posts
  • GURPS Thaumatology: 4,720 posts (!)
These are good to within about ±5%. The error is a consequence of the occasional double-post or accidentally deleted item. If we take the average above, we get 2,954 posts. Volume is definitely linear in list membership, so a 50% increase in list size naively means +1,477 posts to read. It's easy to appreciate how that could cut back on efficiency!

Considering the sheer volume of material to cover, and how much of it is something that can be checked against real life, historical information, I'm bracing for a *really* long playtest.

-P.

Pmandrekar 05-15-2009 09:03 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Žorkell
Oh....what did I get myself into...

You should blame the others. As in, the others who encouraged you to apply for the playtest... :)

-P.

Tzeentch 05-15-2009 09:17 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Low-Tech material also has the added problem that you can get conflicting, mutually exclusive, results from the same set of material remains. So this project has the issue where both sides can present peer-reviewed material to bolster their case. If you have the old Low Tech good examples of problems are things like interpretation of the Walls of Jericho and the existence of tusseh silk with the Greeks. :)

And we haven't even gotten into the rules aspect of things, and the interplay between Low Tech and High-Tech and Bio-Tech in particular.

Bruno 05-16-2009 12:37 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
On the plus side, from what I've seen so far the playtesters don't have to send the authors packing and try to rewrite the manuscript this time :D

(far from it, I've not even got to Dan Howard's armor yet, and I'm enjoying myself immensely)

Tzeentch 05-16-2009 02:28 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
I'm sure there are already draft emails filled with rants against neologisms ("lorica segmentata"), rule contradictions, the lack of aliens, and complaints about how many kW a 5 feet diameter undershot watersheel placed in a stream with 3 mph current will generate.

jeff_wilson 05-16-2009 03:28 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
Playtests for large books typically run for about a month – and that's a generous definition of "month," closer to 30 weekdays or six calendar weeks. Which means that a 50% increase in list membership translates as roughly an extra 50 posts to read each workday. Even if they all took a minute to scan, that's almost an extra hour in the day . . . and most take more than a minute to truly grasp, relate to other posts, etc.

I believe there has been some improvement in this respect in the last couple of years since I've been flogging the plebes harder about quote-trimming and such; longer threads tend to take less time per message to follow.

At least that's my impression; some authors seem to find a ten-message and twenty-message threads daunting the way some posters were intimidated by one-hundred-message and two-hundred-message first days.

Anders 05-16-2009 03:59 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs
Ah. My misunderstanding. You mentioned specific reasons for picking some people out of that batch of 30, so I figured you had specific reasons for all of them.

Bill Stoddard

Oh, yes. He doesn't pick people who are unlucky.

jeff_wilson 05-16-2009 04:24 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Asta Kask
Oh, yes. He doesn't pick people who are unlucky.

Yes, we do; some newbies are chosen non-randomly for persistence. If you keep applying, you'll get there.

whswhs 05-16-2009 08:42 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tzeentch
the lack of aliens

Chapter 1 has 169 words about aliens, plus another 90 words about SM adjustments. And for the rest, well, a tentacled horror from Zeta Reticuli can use a chipped stone knife just as well as you or I can . . .

Bill Stoddard

RobKamm 05-16-2009 09:13 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs
Chapter 1 has 169 words about aliens, plus another 90 words about SM adjustments. And for the rest, well, a tentacled horror from Zeta Reticuli can use a chipped stone knife just as well as you or I can . . .

Bill Stoddard

Yes, but since it has compartmentalized mind and extra attack it can make three chipped stone knives at a time. Also, as those of us with Hidden Lore (Zeta Reticulans) knows they tend to prefer to use a native volcanic glass that can hold a monomolecular edge, but that tend to split lengthwise along the axis of the crystalline structure if they hit something harder than DR 4 (non-flexible).

I too have been enjoying the read so far (despite a two-year-old's birthday party yesterday). And I have taken a sneak peak at Dan's armour section. My wife had to tell me to shut up because I was giggling like a 6'6" schoolgirl...

Not another shrubbery 05-16-2009 12:43 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson
Yes, we do; some newbies are chosen non-randomly for persistence. If you keep applying, you'll get there.

Ah-HAH!

Wait... what?

heh

benz72 05-16-2009 01:04 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Too bad I missed this sign up. It sounds like a lot of fun. Good luck guys... make it great!

Ohhh.... is it bad form to ask if there are rules for crafting items at various TL's? If it is, please ignore the question.

Have a good game.

demonsbane 05-16-2009 05:13 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs
Chapter 1 has 169 words about aliens (...)

Aliens in Low Tech? Hm, GURPS is generic, but I find that a bit worrying... I hope not having real reasons for it, though!

I wish you good work.

whswhs 05-16-2009 05:52 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane
Hm, GURPS is generic, but I find that a bit worrying... I hope not having real reasons for it, though!

The joke is "169 words." That's about 1/5 page at current GURPS typesetting densities, in a book that's, I think, 128 pages long.

And of course there's a reason for it. One of the big markets for Low-Tech is going to be fantasy GMs wanting an expanded catalog of gear from their Bronze Age or medieval campaigns; but an outer space campaign could perfectly well involve an encounter with low-tech aliens, maybe even stone age alien tribes. And they'd have stone age tools. For that matter, a fantasy campaign could have nonhuman races and have to deal with their tools and gear.

Bill Stoddard

Phantasm 05-16-2009 06:02 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane
Aliens in Low Tech? Hm, GURPS is generic, but I find that a bit worrying... I hope not having real reasons for it, though!

I wish you good work.

Well, 169 words is probably not a bad amount for referencing all the "aliens built the pyramids" and similar theories (e.g. the Nazca lines, etc). That's about two or three paragraphs, I'd wager.

Puck Goodfellow 05-16-2009 06:15 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs
The joke is "169 words." That's about 1/5 page at current GURPS typesetting densities, in a book that's, I think, 128 pages long.

And of course there's a reason for it. One of the big markets for Low-Tech is going to be fantasy GMs wanting an expanded catalog of gear from their Bronze Age or medieval campaigns; but an outer space campaign could perfectly well involve an encounter with low-tech aliens, maybe even stone age alien tribes. And they'd have stone age tools. For that matter, a fantasy campaign could have nonhuman races and have to deal with their tools and gear.

Bill Stoddard

128 pages? Wow, that just shows how much difference font and type size makes.

demonsbane 05-16-2009 06:19 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs
The joke is "169 words." That's about 1/5 page at current GURPS typesetting densities, in a book that's, I think, 128 pages long.

And of course there's a reason for it. One of the big markets for Low-Tech is going to be fantasy GMs wanting an expanded catalog of gear from their Bronze Age or medieval campaigns; but an outer space campaign could perfectly well involve an encounter with low-tech aliens, maybe even stone age alien tribes. And they'd have stone age tools. For that matter, a fantasy campaign could have nonhuman races and have to deal with their tools and gear.

Bill Stoddard

Yeah, I had to guess something like that. Thanks for answering.

BTW, you're mentioning it will be (you think) a 128 page book. Because something Sean said, I thought it will be a 160-page hardback, instead.

I can understand that the final number of pages isn't clear at this point, but again, the difference between 128 and 160 is notorious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbrock1031
Well, 169 words is probably not a bad amount for referencing all the "aliens built the pyramids" and similar theories (e.g. the Nazca lines, etc). That's about two or three paragraphs, I'd wager.

Not my favorite class of speculation, but oh well . . . It was stated the book would try to include things for handling interactions between High-Tech cultures with Low-Tech ones. I guess the issue goes along these lines.

Xplo 05-16-2009 07:53 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane
Yeah, I had to guess something like that. Thanks for answering.

BTW, you're mentioning it will be (you think) a 128 page book. Because something Sean said, I thought it will be a 160-page hardback, instead.

I can understand that the final number of pages isn't clear at this point, but again, the difference between 128 and 160 is notorious.

Either way... Is it just me, or are GURPS hardbacks getting smaller and smaller?

Are the bigger books not selling? Are they too hard to playtest and edit?

How big are those Companions? Seems to me like Low-Tech could have been one big book. Did SJG want to split it up so that they could sell the gear catalog for less?

demonsbane 05-16-2009 08:12 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xplo
Either way... Is it just me, or are GURPS hardbacks getting smaller and smaller?

Are the bigger books not selling? Are they too hard to playtest and edit?

How big are those Companions? Seems to me like Low-Tech could have been one big book. Did SJG want to split it up so that they could sell the gear catalog for less?

You're not the only one worrying about this...

Personally, I would prefer a big 270+ page 4e GURPS Low-Tech, as the great Martial Arts and Thaumatology. All in a single book. Of course then we would need to wait for the entire release of the book, wich takes longer than the time needed for releasing the Low-Tech Companions.

Anyway all this was already discussed here. What can we fans do.

whswhs 05-16-2009 08:50 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane
I can understand that the final number of pages isn't clear at this point, but again, the difference between 128 and 160 is notorious.

You should trust Sean. I don't actually recall what the correct figure is. At this stage I'm not asking "how many pages?" I'm asking "what word count do you want in the submitted manuscript?"

Bill Stoddard

whswhs 05-16-2009 08:56 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xplo
How big are those Companions? Seems to me like Low-Tech could have been one big book. Did SJG want to split it up so that they could sell the gear catalog for less?

In essence, yes. It was felt that the market for a big book of low-tech stuff is bigger than the market for a collection of essays on the history of technology, or a set of design systems for enthusiasts who want to build their own polearms. The former group are likely to complain about paying for information they'll never use. This way they can get just what they want, and the people who think cultural context is Cool (which includes me, of course) can get that material. And, who knows, if the Companions sell really well, they might get print editions; it's happened before.

Economists have a theory for this sort of thing; it's called "multipart pricing," I believe, or "price discrimination."

Anyway, the good thing is, the total page count is about twice what the previous edition had. So there's a lot more gear AND more cultural context. Best of both worlds. And important parts of the books were written by people who know more about certain topics than I do. . . .

Bill Stoddard

jeff_wilson 05-17-2009 03:07 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs
And for the rest, well, a tentacled horror from Zeta Reticuli can use a chipped stone knife just as well as you or I can . . .

I believe catapults are the crucial technology here.

Not another shrubbery 05-17-2009 10:11 AM

[OT] Arena
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Man, I remember reading that when I was in high school. Lotsa great stories in that Hall of Fame collection. Hmm.. maybe I should see about getting the series.

Turhan's Bey Company 05-17-2009 01:05 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane
Of course then we would need to wait for the entire release of the book, which takes longer than the time needed for releasing the Low-Tech Companions.

I think the plan is to release the companions at the same time as the core volume, so the prospective delay probably would not be materially different. They're certainly being written and playtested together.

At any rate, it's not like there's going to be less low-tech stuff than, say, Martial Arts or Thaumatology (core book looks to be 160 pages, companions 30-40 each). It's just going to be packaged in a more modular fashion. The core volume, which is mostly a catalog of gear more or less useful for adventuring, will be useful for everybody involved in low-tech games, while the companions will be more useful for GMs and tinkerers.

demonsbane 05-17-2009 01:47 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs
You should trust Sean. I don't actually recall what the correct figure is. At this stage I'm not asking "how many pages?" I'm asking "what word count do you want in the submitted manuscript?"

That sounds better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company
I think the plan is to release the companions at the same time as the core volume, so the prospective delay probably would not be materially different. They're certainly being written and playtested together.

I realize I was thinking for some reason the Low Tech Companions would be released before the core book because the lack of the slow printing process and something I read around here and I'm unable to remember. Thank you for the clarification.

Thinking only in myself, then I would definitely prefer a thicker, single 4e Low Tech volume. But surely there are really strong reasons for that "multipart" treatment of the product, as "the murderous costs associated with long hardbacks these days" (Sean).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company
At any rate, it's not like there's going to be less low-tech stuff than, say, Martial Arts or Thaumatology (core book looks to be 160 pages, companions 30-40 each). (...).

Sure, we aren't seeing here a smaller 4e Low Tech "book"(s), rather at the contrary! And after all, the former 3e one was 128 pages long.

capnq 05-19-2009 12:01 AM

Re: [OT] Arena
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery
Man, I remember reading that when I was in high school. Lotsa great stories in that Hall of Fame collection. Hmm.. maybe I should see about getting the series.

I don't remember when I read it, but I recognized the reference before I even followed the link to check what the title was.

benz72 05-19-2009 09:32 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company
I think the plan is to release the companions at the same time as the core volume, so the prospective delay probably would not be materially different. They're certainly being written and playtested together.

At any rate, it's not like there's going to be less low-tech stuff than, say, Martial Arts or Thaumatology (core book looks to be 160 pages, companions 30-40 each). It's just going to be packaged in a more modular fashion. The core volume, which is mostly a catalog of gear more or less useful for adventuring, will be useful for everybody involved in low-tech games, while the companions will be more useful for GMs and tinkerers.

It's too bad there isn't a way, through the magic of pdf editing, to have something like "The Complete Integrated Book of GURPS Magic" with Magic, Thaum, Magical Styles, etc... all packaged together with a single index.

Same for related Tech volumes. It's got it all, it's all organized and cross referenced and you don't have to switch pdf files to get from one bit to the closely related bits you are looking for.

Oh well, dare to dream.

Figleaf23 05-19-2009 10:12 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benz72
It's too bad there isn't a way, through the magic of pdf editing, to have something like "The Complete Integrated Book of GURPS Magic" with Magic, Thaum, Magical Styles, etc... all packaged together with a single index.

Same for related Tech volumes. It's got it all, it's all organized and cross referenced and you don't have to switch pdf files to get from one bit to the closely related bits you are looking for.

Oh well, dare to dream.

And an integration of combat rules from Basic and MA.

benz72 05-19-2009 11:34 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23
And an integration of combat rules from Basic and MA.

Hell yeah!

I suppose some kind of uber-gestalt plug in pdf. where it just takes every book/supplement you own and organizes it all into a nice neat well cross referenced document with good hyperlinks and an exhaustive index is the stuff of pure fantasy though.

Dare to dream.

ohh... now that I think about it... if the hyperlink points to a document you don't own it could divert you to e-23 and ask you if you want to buy the rules for the low low price of... whatever.

demonsbane 05-23-2009 05:56 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benz72 (Post 792361)
something like "The Complete Integrated Book of GURPS Magic" with Magic, Thaum, Magical Styles, etc... all packaged together with a single index. (...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23 (Post 792423)
And an integration of combat rules from Basic and MA.

Something like that would be great. I'm with you and benz72... dreaming, I guess :^)

Not another shrubbery 05-23-2009 11:28 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane (Post 794319)
Something like that would be great. I'm with you and benz72... dreaming, I guess :^)

Dream big. To keep it somewhat topical: I'm dreaming about Low-Tech, the Low-Tech Companions, and High-Tech, all bound together :)

demonsbane 05-23-2009 11:43 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery (Post 794378)
(...) all bound together :)

The way I'm envisioning this, we could have a 3000+ pages GURPS Basic Set containing just all. I wouldn't be displeased! A really thick textbook format would be required, though.

I'm half-joking...

Not another shrubbery 05-23-2009 12:32 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane
The way I'm envisioning this, we could have a 3000+ pages GURPS Basic Set containing just all.I'm half-joking...

Could be a stand-up routine in there:
When your Index has to be published separately... your book might be too big ;)

hal 05-23-2009 02:14 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery (Post 794378)
Dream big. To keep it somewhat topical: I'm dreaming about Low-Tech, the Low-Tech Companions, and High-Tech, all bound together :)

You are aware for example, that there are some low priced PDF authoring programs that permit you to import entire pdf files to merge with existing PDF files?

For example, I could right here, and right now, take GURPS CHARACTERS and GURPS CAMPAIGNS, and combine them into a single PDF, remove unwanted cover pages, so that the entire PDF goes from page 1 on up to the last page of GURPS CAMPAIGNS as a single "volume". I could then append GURPS MARTIAL ARTS to that same PDF, such that it has GURPS CHARACTERS, GURPS CAMPAIGNS, and GURPS MARTIAL ARTS all as a single PDF.

This isn't all that difficult to achieve...

hal 05-23-2009 02:18 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Oh, I almost forgot. I sent in a copy of the "cleaned up" time use character sheet and NPC sheet sans the information that was published in the GURPS rules book on Dai Blackthorn or what ever. It took me about 1 minute to scrub the data off the NPC sheet. I sent that PDF to Kromm saying that someone asked for it, and I thought I would make it available quickly.

One minute was all it took. PDF authoring software can do some pretty nifty stuff. Even the simple Adobe reader allows you to cut and paste material such that if you wanted to alter spell descriptions from GURPS MAGIC to more reflect your desires for your campaign - you could use it to modify spells and tell your players "This is how the spell description works in my campaign world" and let them read the revised entry. Neat stuff when you get right down to it :)

Kelly Pedersen 05-23-2009 02:27 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hal (Post 794448)
You are aware for example, that there are some low priced PDF authoring programs that permit you to import entire pdf files to merge with existing PDF files?

This is certainly true, but such a product wouldn't be to SJGames' production standards. That's the reason generally given when this sort of merged book is proposed, whether for this, Dungeon Fantasy, Spaceships, or whatever.
For the book to be something SJGames wants to attach their name to, it would require extensive layout changes (they wouldn't want multiple title pages or tables of contents or indexes, for example), and it would require textual changes like going through and adjusting all the page number references.
Of course, everyone can say that of course they don't care about that sort of thing, they'd be happy with the simple merged PDF. The problem is, that's not representative. And even if a majority of buyers would be happy with a simple merged PDF, there would inevitably be a vocal minority who complained about the shoddy production values and spread reports of SJGames being a less-than-careful company.

capnq 05-23-2009 03:01 PM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane (Post 794382)
The way I'm envisioning this, we could have a 3000+ pages GURPS Basic Set containing just all. I wouldn't be displeased! A really thick textbook format would be required, though.

That sounds more viable as a multi-volume Encyclopedia GURPSiana that ships one volume per month until you have the complete set.

Kelly Pedersen 05-24-2009 07:17 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capnq (Post 794472)
That sounds more viable as a multi-volume Encyclopedia GURPSiana that ships one volume per month until you have the complete set.

Hey, yeah! And, to make sure that every volume is useful, we might as well organize the rules by category, so you get all the cross-references in one volume. We could devote one volume to combat rules, one on rules for supernatural powers, one for gear... Hmm. Sounding familiar, here. Perhaps some other game company has done something similar? ;-)

Rasputin 05-24-2009 10:28 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane (Post 791301)
Thinking only in myself, then I would definitely prefer a thicker, single 4e Low Tech volume. But surely there are really strong reasons for that "multipart" treatment of the product, as "the murderous costs associated with long hardbacks these days" (Sean).

I also assume the margins are better. I'm not begrudging SJG from trying to make money -- far from it -- but I should point out:
  • Smaller books cost less to ship.
  • Short PDFs make much more per page than do hardcover books.
  • Books are not cheap to make.
  • Low-Tech has a number of different audiences anyways. You have historical realism folks, you have folks just looking for more weapons and armor (and lower weights). You have folks who only care at gaming at specific Tech Levels, especially TL 3. You have folks who are looking to use this for fantasy games, as opposed to most folks with High-Tech, who are running games on a semi-realistic Earth. Having the core book go to all of them and the smaller PDFs go to the target audiences satisfies everyone.

Not another shrubbery 05-24-2009 10:36 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen
Hey, yeah! And, to make sure that every volume is useful, we might as well organize the rules by category, so you get all the cross-references in one volume. We could devote one volume to combat rules, one on rules for supernatural powers, one for gear... Hmm. Sounding familiar, here. Perhaps some other game company has done something similar? ;-)

<ducks as the point flies overhead> Hey! Watch where you aim that thing! >:( ;)

Hmm... GURPS on a subscription basis... I'd buy that.
*halo*

walkir 05-24-2009 11:38 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benz72 (Post 792361)
Same for related Tech volumes. It's got it all, it's all organized and cross referenced and you don't have to switch pdf files to get from one bit to the closely related bits you are looking for.

if this means the changes from TL 8 to 9 (and most probably 4 to 5) will get a new treatment, I'm all for it. At the moment there's stuff only found in HT not followed on in UT (surprise, HT is newer...), which (clothing weight, change from batteries to power cells...) would be fine to have in late TL 8 / early TL 9 society 8as IIRC infinite worlds is)...

If it's just copy&paste for the books, I don't think that's useful.

demonsbane 06-03-2009 09:24 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hal (Post 794450)
(...) One minute was all it took. PDF authoring software can do some pretty nifty stuff.

Just now, I only know the old Adobe Writer, and Adobe Acrobat 9 Pro. Anyone here could recommend some specific good (not necessarily expensive!) PDF authoring software?
Thxs.

Bruno 06-03-2009 09:49 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonsbane (Post 799651)
Just now, I only know the old Adobe Writer, and Adobe Acrobat 9 Pro. Anyone here could recommend some specific good (not necessarily expensive!) PDF authoring software?
Thxs.

CutePDF, PDFCreator, Foxit...

demonsbane 06-03-2009 10:02 AM

Re: Call for Playtesters: GURPS Low-Tech
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno (Post 799667)
CutePDF, PDFCreator, Foxit...

I was using PDFCreator, but seemingly not aware of its PDF authoring capabilities. Thank you.

And of course, it goes without saying my question was completely in line with the thread's topic!


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