Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

Let me rephrase, why hose them by arbitrarily declaring them to be not on the lookout? You might as well have declared them totally suprised! Otherwise rational players will utterly revolt when you pull this kind of stuff (which you seem to imply in your example), but will go along with it if you give them a fighting chance. Besides, if your players have PER of 20 and dodge of 14, then your solution is simple; give them less points!

Why not ambush them with 6 or so 75 point archers with Bow-13 and Camoflage-14 firing as a volley from a concealed position at a range of 50 yds? Have it happen on a forest road or something, so that there is a darkness penalty (of -2 or so) to see into the forest, but none to see the road. Let the players explain their marching order ect. Only roll Vision (or Observation) for anyone specifically declared to be a dedicated lookout/pointman. Make sure the archers aim for three turns and fire with an AoA:Determined.

Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

Otherwise rational players will not utterly revolt when they are ambushed. They will revolt if they have declared they are cautiously advancing forward and then you deny them a Per roll to spot the ambush.

Yes, my gaming sessions can be harsh. I believe in intelligent opponents and expect my players to act with some measure of intelligence also. (though I am very generous in reminding characters of advantages which help them out)

Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

I usually give my players a Per roll, modified as appropriate. When you can't see the shooter, it really sucks for them, but they're quite aware of that possibility.

Now as far as the Dodge goes, one of the things I took from the uberthread, was the following House Rule.

You get one Dodge per turn, period. Your success in that one Dodge is applied to all attacks you are aware of as per Rapid Fire. So if half a dozen crossbowmen shoot you, you better have made your dodge by a number equal to the number of missiles you're hoping to avoid.
Also, if you're in melee and have three dogs biting at you, your dodge roll better be good enough to dodge them all.

Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

How do you handle something like...

3 attackers, 2 attack, the third waits, for whatever declared reason, then attacks later in the turn. So 2 attacks, 1 dodge, some stuff happens, third attack, ?. Or just opponents of different speeds. Do you just apply the old score?

Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

I do. The simultaneaty thing is a bit of a hand wave anyway, it's all happening within a split second of time, so that third attack comes as you are rolling out of the way of the first two attacks, launching an attack of your own, and your dodge shifts to encompass the third attack.

The dodge to me isn't a bob of the head to avoid a missile which will be going through a specific spot, it's more something along the line of an action which you do throughout your turn, to avoid all of the perceived incoming nastiness. Since it's so general, it's not usually as good as something like a parry, which is a focused defense against a specific attack at a specific point.

So you perceive an attack coming from two people in front of you, and you dodge back, you succeed your dodge by 1 and so you dodge them, but if there's a third attack from your side which you also perceive, your dodge will have a body turn as well, but since there's so many attacks coming at once, you may dodge the first, and even the second attack, but that third attack is now much harder to dodge and it hits you.

Of course, if you make your Dodge by 2, then you normally get to Dodge 3 attacks. This sounds like a good thing, but if that third attacker was timing his attack to try to get you off balance after you dodged 2 other people, he then launches his attack as a Deceptive Attack -2 to Defend, and all of a sudden, he's just blown through your supposedly good/successful dodge.

Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

I like this option as it works within an existing rule (dodging automatic weapons fire). How do you incorporate Retreats/Drops and Acrobatic Dodges? Do they apply to the whole turn or just against one attack in the turn?

A possible down side to this option is that a malicious GM would know exactly how many attacks you'd be able to dodge in the turn and could take advantage of that (as in your third guy waiting and using just enough Deceptive Attack to overcome the dodgers "good" roll).

Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

Since there's only one roll, they apply to all attacks as they normally would.

That just goes back to proper use of the Wait maneuver, since a canny adversary would use his comrades attack to make his attack more likely to succeed. It works for PCs too.

As for using just enough Deceptive Attack, I don't run adversarial games, so I have no need to Meta-Game something like that. The Deceptive Attack will be what it would normally be, if the Dodge is good enough, it'll miss, if the Dodge wasn't good enough, I'm not going to decrease the planned negative modifier for the attacker...
...unless it's something totally obvious, as in where the second attacker manages to hit, then the third attacker might attack with an extra-effort strong attack instead of a Deceptive Attack.

Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

Ze', this house rule is interesting, but it prevents a scenario where you can dodge a blow after being hit by another. Once you got hit, you are vulnerable until your next turn. I've to think about it.

Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

Not necessarily though.
If attacker number one made a deceptive attack at -3 to defend, and managed to hit, doesn't mean attacker number two or number three will automatically hit.
Since subsequent attackers may think the defender is incompetent because he was hit by the first attack, they may not use any Deceptive Attack and just go strong, which could mean they'll blow FP and miss altogether.

Re: Active defense debate o_Ô
 

-3?

You should have an ability around 17-18 in order to make such a Deceptive Attack useful. Moreover, generally (and mathematically) DA is worth using only for skills 13+ that are not that common around NPCs.

So the "hit spiral" (once you are hit, you are hit by all successive attacks) would still be a problem.