Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

At the very least, Dungeon Fantasy needs a list of the languages within the setting, both living culture languages, special languages (Elemental Language, e.t.c.) and ancient languages. It's the kind of thing that some players will demand to be told about up front before they create their characters, and the kind of thing that an inexperienced GM will be unable to deliver.

I'm thinking the best solution would be a pseudo-European setting with a few major countries analogous to England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy, each with their own language, and a few common ancient languages (analogous to Latin, Greek and Arabic) and half a dozen obscure ancient languages (analogous to Egyptian, Babylonian, Sanskrit and so forth). Largely similar history as Europe, with an old empire that split into two parts, then collapsed due to barbarian invasions.


Likewise, a master list of all Hidden Lore specializations would be good, because it prevents the GM from inventing new ones to thwart the players. The DF1 and 4 PDFs already refer to a lot of specializations in their templats, but a definite statement that these are all that there are unless the GM explicitly says so before game start, would be good. Or if a few more are needed, then include them in the list in the setting PDF.


Basically, there are a bunch of character creation questions that aren't answered in the PDFs published so far, and leaving it up to GM decision is doing a disservice to inexperienced GMs, because either they don't know that they have to make those decisions before gamestart, or else if a player demands it they will not be able to make good decisions that can stand throughout the campaign.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

SJ Games should be looking at getting the rights to Lejendary Adventure which is a really cool setting. It is sort of a pseudo middle age with all of the countries of the world. This setting should be used by someone if not GURPS.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

"Bare Bones" won't do it. The success of DF as a .pdf series will justify a Setting Book (or several). Just to be marketable it'll probably go for $7.95 (though a $4.95 smaller version is possible) and run over 30 pages.

I'm basing this mostly on Riggsby's Tower of Octavius book.

And lots of details. ;)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I will try to set up a game world and put it on the forums. The world I have in mind is a mix of Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu, Tolkien, and combination of many different myths and medieval times.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I don't really think that it needs that. If the players are demanding an exhaustive list of the languages of the campaign world before character creations, the GM should just tell them they are not going to get that. The GM can just say, you are from such and such and place and have only had the opportunity to learn so and so. Players with more scholarly backgrounds can work with the GM one on one to come up with what other language or two the character has experience with. Many GMs are not going to be comfortable anyway with establishing a list of languages up front for fear of painting themselves into a corner as the story grows and evolves.
I really don’t think SJG needs to expend resources on something like this. Many gamers are familiar enough with basic European history to swipe it for “their campaign history” and wouldn’t need to buy a copy of “GURPS: Europe with all the Serial Numbers Filed Off.” But in the event that you do need something like that written out for a campaign word, just Google “History of Europe.” The first hit should be the Wikipedia entry for “History of Europe.” Copy that into a word processor and then start running search and replaces to change the names. Find and replace all “Rome” with “Alsteria” and all “France” with “Groumberwalden” and so forth and so on and you have your campaign history. Likewise with the languages. There is a Wikipedia entry for “Languages of Europe.” Copy it over to a word processor and start changing the names if you feel you need such a document to give the players at character creation.
I completely do not understand this. Why would the GM be required to tell the players all the hidden lore specialties of the game before they encounter them? Why would they know something hidden before discovering it? Sounds meta-game to me.
Well, as you point out, the setting is left for the GM. It does not cover that. While some GMs will want to have EVERYTHING worked out ahead of time, actually I more often find the mistake of the inexperienced GM is to think he or she MUST have all of that 110% worked out. Likewise if the players are demanding a complete list of all languages and hidden lore specialties of the game word at the outset of character creation, and inexperienced GM might think he or she should be able to give that to them and might even think he or she is being a bad GM for not having that at hand, whereas the experiences GM will simply tell them “No.”

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I disagree. I feel that if SJG started applying a specific setting to Dungeon Fantasy it would start to constrain it and not allow it to just develop in a way, which I feel, gives Dungeon Fantasy it's uniqueness.

As it stands you can use DF for any of the old school games. Dungeons and Dragons, Tunnels and Trolls, Warhammer Fantasy, heck even Palladium Fantasy. All those settings can be used with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and all the GM has to do is make a few monsters*.

Even placing it in a "bare-bones setting" will start to introduce guide lines and maybe restrain the type of monsters or magic you find.

I would like to add that GURPS Dungeon Fantasy could be used to recreate your favourite hack and slash video game. Two of my favorites, Dungeon Siege and Diablo offer a great back drop for DF. Do you like board games? Mage Knight or Descent would also make a good back drop for DF.

My personal DF game is played completely underground. The characters never get to the surface. Towns which I call "Warrens" abound throughout the series of levels and caverns. Pocket dimensions (never larger than a square mile) can be found throughout my DF world allowing brief views into Faierie realms, Demonic, Elemental realms giving my DF a very Old school and New School Video game feel to it.

Now I would more than agree with you that DF needs some DF style adventure modules!

*It is my opinion that when using any setting in GURPS, be it Fantasy, Modern, Supers, Sci-Fi that you use the setting only and stick with GURPS rules. Its the setting you want, so why bother with "converting" rules, stats, etc.

also what Gavynn said ;-)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Was I the only one thinking abour skeleton warriors when reading bare-bones setting? :-)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Where have I said that there should be a specific setting for DF?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Probably...but now I can't not think about them.The very title of the thread states that you think there should be a setting for Dungeon Fantasy. I also disagree. I think the point of Dungeon Fantasy is that there is no setting. It is made to pretty much be hack and slash. Fantasy, on the other hand, is thataway.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Yeah, I suppose your using the words "Dungeon Fantasy" "needs" and "setting" in the thread title could lead some people to think that Dungeon Fantasy needs a setting.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I don't think Dungeon Fantasy needs a setting, it's intended to be "generic hack & slash", isn't it?
Plus, there are DOZENS of hack & slash fantasy settings...

About languages: I think DF assumes that everybody speaks Common, and that every race (including magical races such as Elementals, Spirits and so on) has its own "silly" language: Elven, Dwarven, Orcish...

Simply buy GURPS Banestorm!

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I would LOVE to see a DF setting!!!
Cannot emphasize this enough.

BUT PLEASE,don´t make it Yrth-like.
Real religions, real languages and real cultures have NOTHING to do in a Fantasy setting, IMHO!

Call it different: Blackcoasters, Firelanders, Kingdom of Ilyarrah, Cult of the Bloodgod, whatever - just FANTASY!

I realy hate to read about christians, islam, german, english, whatever ...
That´s not FANTASY!

:)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Below is the entirety of the world background I'm using for my DF game, which has had 12 experienced (and inexperienced) players game in it to date. No one has complained about the lack of information or needed to know more about ancient languages.

Background

In the history of the world, there have been many kingdoms, empires, republics, city-states, trade leagues, and other governments. Many have fallen.

The town of Polisberg sits on the shore of the Antillan Sea. To the east lies much of civilization. To the west, the unclaimed and wild lands of the Westmarch.

Delvers often come to Polisberg, seeking the wealth that can be violently recovered from the ruins and caves of the Westmarch.

The Westmarch is the mostly unclaimed ground between civilization and hostile realms. It has been fought over, conquered, lost, razed, and rebuilt over the years, but is currently mostly unoccupied. Various monsters, beasts, demons, undead, oozes, and things haunt the wilderness of the Westmarch, along with a few hardy (and often mad) souls.

The Westmarch is mostly rolling hills covered with forest and divided by rivers, though there are some swamps, plains, and mountain chains in the land. Scholars snidely point out that the Westmarch proper is only the central plains, and that the other territories commonly called the Westmarch have other, proper names. Most people ignore them.

A few caravan tracks and trade-roads cross through Westmarch, delivering rare goods at high prices.


If SJ Games wants to put out a default setting for DF that includes languages and hidden lores and whatnot, they certainly can. But I really don't see the point, as there are hundreds of DF style settings out there already and creating a new one takes less than an hour's effort.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Even having a "Bare-bones setting" is still creating a specific setting even if it is vague and undeveloped. It starts to create boundaries of what you can and can not do.

It is just my opinion, please don't get upset.

I was suggesting pre-made settings that would easily fit in with DF, that's all.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I disagree with the "bare-bones" part but a setting book could be cool. Maybe a setting book with a series of adventures too. Its a campaign setting for DF but it is not the "official" setting. GURPS material is usually generic guides to the kind of "flavor" of game you want to play. A few specific books of pre-made adventures in a pre-made world could be cool.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Well I don't think that is true. Every game requires a setting of some kind. But as with most GURPS products, the settings are largely left to the GM.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Why not just use GURPS Myth: The Fallen Lords! The Game is a Hall of Fame'r and the setting is awesome, works great with DF, complete, and not to mention it is at default dark.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I think this is the issue. DF isn't a setting, it's a method or style.

Edit to amplify: now, a posited setting or even multiple settings with certain ground rules, would be fertile ground for people to compose and submit adventures using the adventure template. Your hypothetical European style one, or another that's middle earth with the numbers filed off (or the land of Paksennarion) would work, as would all sorts of others.

Since each adventure will likely be, you know, a dungeon or at least a fixed locale, GMs could place them in appropriate context and move them around as needed for their campaigns.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Was I the only one slightly annoyed by calling Greek and Arabic "ancient" languages? They're still around! Latin is just a liturgical and classical language now, but c'mon, Arabic? Still alive and kickin'. :)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

The thread title? "...needs a bare-bones setting." As in ONE bare bones setting. A list of languages makes it specific, as does the requested list of Hidden Lore specialties.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Not just alive and kicking, but probably far, FAR closer than virtually any other ancient language to its thousands-of-year-old roots.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Does it contain a proper amount of languages, so as to make characters with Language Talent and multiple Languages sufficiently useful?

(I'm totally unfamiliar with the setting, but my guess would be that it does not.)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

And how will an inexperienced GM cope with that?

Badly!

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

No. Bare-bones and specific are opposites of each other.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Could you speak for yourself only please?

When I was an inexperienced GM, I picked up GURPS3e. I had no books whatsoever other than the Basic Book (this was before the Compendia). I was 15 or 16. I didn't have any bestiaries, I didn't have the Fantasy book. I had never even played GURPS or seen it played.

And really? I didn't have a problem creating a Fantasy setting with what I was given. I coped very well, thank you.

I made it a no magic setting because I figured it would be a bit easier. I made a map, some basic background and voila! I had a setting and it worked out well. And I was only 15/16. And I was not a genius.

It isn't that hard.

And as for having enough languages for language talent to be useful as you imagine it, that is your thing. Certainly not mandatory for a fantasy setting for everyone.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Indeed. RPGers are, on the whole, an intelligent bunch, but for some reason they really seem to love being spoon-fed stuff.

So SJG makes a game where you can use your imagination to make anything you can dream up, and instead of scurrying off into a corner to start making maps and plans, gamers shout, "Sell us supplements!" So SJG, quite understandably, shrugs and says, "OK."

But really, Dungeon Fantasy doesn't need a default setting, any more than D&D needed a default setting back in the day. It's already built into the rules. Anything that's not in the rules you're expected to make up yourself—and you're supposed to be happy to do it!

Whatever happened to the notion of "hobby gaming," anyway?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Well, "old" doesn't really work, and "dead" is even worse than ancient. I'd say that languages that ancient cultures used would qualify as ancient languages, regardless of if they're still around.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

What people want (I think) is to be captivated with an interesting world. Rules are a small part of RPGs, the most important part of RPGs is to have an inspiring game world.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Which should be read as "I would like to buy a setting for Dungeon Fantasy," not "I think Dungeon Fantasy should be set in a specific setting."

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Add a "me too" to that. Myth could easily be recycled for DF.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

How I'd do it.

Languages: Elven, Dwarven etc. (how many races are in DF anyway). If old mysterious languages are needed there's Old Elven, Old Dwarven etc. and perhaps the dragon language.

Hidden Lore specialties? Give me a good reason why your character should have some.

What more is needed?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

To me, the term Dungeon Fantasy resonates with old-school fantasy settings of the late 1970s.

I would love to see a default setting that is attuned to the sensibilities of that era.

If you look at some of the early RPG settings, it is amazing how terse they are - entire realms would get no more than a paragraph or two of information.

These early campaign settings attempt to be evocative without limiting the creativity of the individual GM. They tend to draw heavily on classic fantasy archetypes to achieve this aim.

Good examples include the World of Greyhawk from TSR, the Wilderlands of High Fantasy from Judges Guild, the Frontiers of Alusia from SPI's excellent but ill-fated DragonQuest RPG, David Hargrave's Arduin setting, etc.

Curiously, most of these settings draw a large portion of their inspiration from the sword & sorcery fiction rather than the high fantasy of Tolkien and his successors - they were more in tune with the sensibilities of Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, HP Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, and their ilk.

This is hardly surprising, as there was a revival of interest in this style of fantasy around the time that D&D was in development (inspired at least in part by Ballantine's Adult Fantasy imprint).

If SJGames ever publishes an original GURPS setting that embraces this style of old-school sword & sorcery gaming, I will be very happy indeed.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Not at all. I'm surprised that you of all people don't see this. Calling for a limiting list of languages, particular cultural backstory, which you did in your first post, makes it specific. Not a lot of detail, which is fine, since settings need room for the GM to customize to taste (even Banestorm, which is pretty darn specific, has lots of room for GMs to play, as it should).

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

i'd like to see the world of Cidri come out, but less banestorm-y...
(geek points for who ever know where Cidri comes from)

i have such fond memories of that place... the scifi Securtiy Station and Thorsz's guards (especially those death tests they used to weed out the weaker guards).

memories...

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Folks, this is DF we're talking about. What more do you really need than this?

The Basic Bare-Bones Non-Specific Dungeon Fantasy Setting

Location #1: The Town
When you are in The Town, you can visit The Tavern, The Shop, The Smithy, and The Home Of The Powerful Guy Who Hands Out Quests.

Location #2: The Hole In The Ground
Also known as "the dungeon", this is where the first adventure takes place.

Location #3: The Other Hole In The Ground
Also known as "the second dungeon", this is where the second adventure takes place.

Location #4: The Other Other Hole In The Ground
Also known as "the third dungeon", this is where the third adventure takes place.

(etc, etc, ad nauseum)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Nah. There are tons of places to draw from, including, as I pointed out Wikipedia if you are looking for Europe with different names.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I realize that as a European, you may not have American-style English (what most of the board speaks) as your first language, so let me just correct you here. "Bare bones" and "specific" are opposites in no way, shape, or form.

Your use of the article "a" is indicative of the request for a single, specific setting. If you wanted many such settings to be available, the proper phrasing would be, "DF needs a selection of settings."

Hope this doesn't come across as patronizing. I'm trying to be genuinely helpful here. There are a lot of little rules for English that can sometimes prevent concepts from coming across properly.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

All I can say is that there seems to be a lot of interest in having some DF settings. So I will just say that many people who are interested in something tend to also purchase a product they are interested in. If GURPS wants to sell it's products so maybe it would be a good idea to produce the products people are intetrested in.

The first four DFs and DF Allies has sold very well mostly because people are interested in this type of product.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

A GURPS:DF By Example adventure may not be a bad idea.

Somethign Like Tower of Octavius with an adventure built in and for DF.

As noted above, A town, a couple of Holes with monsters and treasure in them and a basic beastiary/encounter table to go with it.

Although converting other sources to gurps isnt hard in itself, I can see why a new GM might want something more like a turn key solution for his first attempts at reffing the game.

It should Include:
Near Town Map: Major Lanmarks Include

1. Town
2. Adventure Area 1
3. Adventure Area 2

Town Map:Major landmarks include

1. Location and Interior Map of Mayor/Duke/King (Quest Giver's) house/Mansion/Castle.
2. Location and Interior Map of Armory/Outfitters.
3. Location and Interior map of Tavern/Inn where the charachters will likely sleep.
4. Location and Interior Maps of the Guards Barracks.
5. Location and Interior Maps of a Temple/Mageria/Yerberia for Healing

Maps for the Adventure Areas.

Printable Sheets with the Stats for the Monsters in the Encounter Areas and Stats for Major NPCs(King, Captain of the Guard, Head Clerk at Outfitters etc).

Encounter Tables for Each of the Adventure Areas. For begining players and GMs 'I walk into a hole kill creatures and make their possesions my own' is plenty to handle, but you could throw a rudimentry plot in there as well.

The town map and data is infinitely reusable and could become a Base oF Ops for the carachters for many adventures as could either one of the adventure areas once the monsters are relocated to the afterlife.

This would also help the new GM see what kind of preparation is required to make a game run smoothly, and he could then begin generating his own by expanding the map of the town and its surroundings to encompass a country or continent. Throw in a few competing races and cities and before you know it, you've got a running world.


There may be alot of this stuff on e23 right now and I just dont see it. Although Caravan To Ein Aris is a good adventure, the meatier parts of it involves a level of inrtigue than most DFers arent really looking for. Nail Down 12-20 pages of PDF that contain a foothold into Dungeon Fantasy that is ready to play right out of the box.

It may be that because GURPS GMs love to microtweak thier worlds to death there hasn't been a market for this kind of 'starter module.' As we continue to pick up players from other systems, I think showing them a well written example of an adventure might make the transition for them easier.

For the Record, I love extending this idea to GURPS:(Insert Genre Here) By Example.

Nymdok

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I also think that one thing that is useful is to have examples using the rules because GURPS power levels and other games power levels are different. GURPS has many more abilities too so that it sort of changes other dungeons. In DF, characters can dig their way through dungeons and break down doors which sort of defeat the original dungeon of an earlier system. Also, GURPS is more realistic so that changes the original dungeon too.

Most important though is the fact that more people who buy RPGs are interested in the story more than anything. No matter how good the rules system, the most important thing IMO is an engaging story. Many RPGs have bad rules but they have cool stories and despite the bad rules they sell very well. So I think many people surely want rules for this and that but I feel subconsciously they also want an engaging story to go along with the rules.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I don't think that Dungeon Fantasy needs to be nailed to any one specific setting. It would be very nice, however, to have some well-established generalities in a wide-open setting that players could become familiar with.

Why?

Fiction (and RPGs) usually take place on the boundaries of the "rules." Some players simply love having rules to bend, or to break, or to dance around. For instance: you're the dwarf who hates working with metal, or you're the dark elf who isn't really evil, or the long-lost king who doesn't really want the crown, or the quiet unadventuresome little fellow who gets dragged off into a battle against armies and dragons. You're the werewolf who's a vegetarian, you're the last in an ancient race of druids, you're the only one who knows where the valley of the long-lost secrets lies. You're the wizard who isn't very good at magic, you're the barbarian who isn't very handy with a sword, or you're the only person ever to survive the death and destruction of your village. You're the only alien of your race to serve in Starfleet; you're the youngest starship captain; you're the only known member of your race.

On the frontier where the rules break down, that's where stories happen. Gamers like having archetypes and rules, because that's how you make interesting characters. Why would a gamer want to be an uninspiring interchangeable Elf with a capital E, when he could be the Elf Who Doesn't Want To Be Immortal?

There's two ways to go with any setting. First, you can make all characters of a given type more or less identical. Star Trek is a setting of this type, where almost all Klingons (or Ferengi, or Romulans, or Cardassians) are virtually indistinguishable. A setting gives the player a basis, a foundation on which to build. It gives the world definition and direction.

But who were the most interesting characters in Trek? Spock, Data, Worf, Garek the tailor, Odo. They were unique. They defied their archetypes (or as in the case of Odo, he had no archetype, at least at first).

That's why, I think, a bare-bones setting is of some use. It gives players ideas, both in things they can be, but also ways they can be different.

Will SJ Games create such a bare-bones setting for GURPS Fantasy? No, because I doubt it'd sell... settings and rules and archetypes are desired by players, not necessarily by the GMs who want to run games. I like GURPS because I can run any setting I want, at any time. I don't like it, because every new setting is a buttload of work to create (but ever so satisfying to get it running).

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

The term "metagame" is inapplicable to events that take place prior to game start.


Also, the general problem is one of ability usefulness, and how finely areas of expertise and communications are divided.

If the setting only has a single ancient language, then my Scholar template character with Language Talent gets screwed, because the Wizard also knows Latin (and even the Bard might have it at Broken).

Likewise, if the setting has a dozen equally important ancient languages and three dozen less important ones, I'm forced to spend an unreasonable amount of CPs to make my Scholar capable of that which Scholar is entitled to be capable of. On top of the unrealism of there not being one or two ancient languages that can be said to be "primary" in that area.

An inexperienced GM is dangerously likely to commit excess, when making such decisions, regardless of whether he makes them consciously and proactively, or (more or less consciously) and reactively (i.e. when a player demands to be given basic information about the setting so that he can create his character), or unconsciosly.

Same with Hidden Lore. DF already has something like half a dozen mandatory Hidden Lore specialties (and a few more in DF5), and therefore already delineates some things. For instance, there is one Hidden Lore to cover all Undead, rather than a single Hidden Lore to cover all supernatural creature, or separate Hidden Lores to cover Liches, Southern Vampires, Northern Vampires and Western Lesbian Vampires.

Dividing too finely, when it comes to languages or mandatory skill specialties, is bad and will hurt some character concepts, even though those character concepts are perfectly legitimate - and inarguably legitimate because they are from Kromm's own hand!

Likewise, not dividing finely enough will also hurt some legitimate character concepts.

The GM has to hit the sweet range (not a spot because it isn't that exact), and avoid extremes. And the best way to do that is to do it before gamestart, and to do it with guidance (i.e. from DF6: The Setting) if you're an inexperienced GM.

And note that an experienced player can't easily compensate for an inexperienced GM. Not out here, in the real world.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

It's not for me. I know how to create a medieval European fantasy setting.

It's for inexperienced GMs. So that scholarly characters can be fun to play, the way Kromm intends them to be (since if he didn't intend them to be fun, he wouldn't have put their templates into the PDF).

The reason I suggested pseudo-European is simplicity. Everybody is vaguely familiar with Europe and its history, so that would be a very good place to start, especially with regards to the linguistic emerging from the "fallen empire" situation. Latin (assuming Western Europe) serving both as a scholarly language (ancient documents) and a Lingua Franca among the learned class, with Greek and Arabic being important if you want to be able to read old documents, and about half a dozen lesser scholarly languages that it would be nifty to be able to read if you find books or scrolls as treasure.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

You forgot to explain whether or not languages plays as big a role in the campaign as Kromm intended them to. Also, how many of your players created Scholars? How many created characters with Langauge Talent?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Yes, and one component of that style is that languages are of some importance. That's why they are in some of the templates in DF1. That's why Language Talent is on the list of allowed Advantages.

Part of the style, part of the style which Kromm intends, is for languages to be of non-zero importance. Kromm intends the style to be such that playing a Scholar will be fun. Such that utilizing scholarly skills will be fun and contribute to the party's progress towards their collective goal.


And keep in mind, I'm not making this up. Nor am I reading Kromm's mind. I'm simply pointing to what he wrote: The templates in DF1.

(Notice how the species templates in DF3 don't say anything about aging. That's because Kromm intends Longevity and Extended Lifespan and Early Maturation to have no relevance whatsoever during a DF campaign. If Kromm had intended languages to have no relevance whatsoever, he'd have omitted them from the templates, and removed Langauge Talent from the list of allowed Advantages. But he didn't.)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Too bad DF isn't out in hardcover, so the player, to whom you ask this utterly stupid question, can't beat you repeatedly over the head with the book, after having shown you the various templates in DF1 and DF4, many of which empower players to give their characters several specialties of the Hidden Lore skill.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

It's not about limiting. It's about me as a player being able to "cover the bases" when I select languages for my Scholar template character. I don't want the GM able to improvise important ancient/scholarly languages during the campaign.

Same goes for Hidden Lore specialties, and so forth.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

What will promot an inexperienced GM to realize that he needs to think about languages before gamestart?

Wikipedia doesn't tell him to. No DF supplment tells him to.

I don't need help as a GM. I'm not an inexperienced GM. I'm just pointing to the fact that inexperienced GMs exist, and that a subset of these will try out DF, and that a subset of this subset will make disastrous decisions, due to the lack of official guidance, if one of their players opts for a Scholar template character and/or a character with the Language Talent Advantage.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Sounds like limiting to me — limiting the GM.

You want to be able to create a character who already knows everything, for whom there are no surprises, who never grows. Fun for you — but it sucks the mystery right out of everything.

If you're designing characters with an adversarial relationship toward the GM, frankly, I wouldn't want you in my campaign. I'm not out to get you, I'm out to tell a story.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Peter Knutsen has long described the Player/GM relationship as an adversarial one. He doesn't seem to believe that it can exist any other way, and trying to convince him that it isn't, or shouldn't be, is a waste of time.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Peter, you're heading down a path once tread by Tom Kalbfus when you make posts llike that...

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

"I am the player! I wield the smashy book!"

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

There are some generic, stat-free settings out there.

Harn is a very detailed quasi-medieval setting;

http://www.kelestia.com/

http://www.lythia.com/

http://www.columbiagames.com/

Also, the The World of Khaas, Legendary Lands of Arduin was made into a huge encyclopedia;

http://www.worldofkhaas.com/

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

How come the player can't point out that oversight of mine to me without resorting to violence?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

To Peter, a discussion between player and GM can range from "argument" (at the 'calm' end) to "fistfight" (at the 'angry' end). At least, that's my take on him, based on a few years of Pyramid board cohabitation. On multiple occasions, he's insisted, "The GM's job is to set up the world and oversee the simulation of reality, and that's it. Anything more is getting in the players' way." So I guess you could call that approach an adversarial one.

Unlike some people (not naming names*), I don't think Peter actually hates GMs, but his take on the player/GM role is definitely . . . quirky.

*For safety, as the first name that comes to mind is a member who I consider actually dangerous.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Creating you character is part of the game. You can absolutely use metagame knowledge to create a character.
IDHMBWM so I can’t comment specifically on what the GMing section of the GURPS books say right now, but I can say you are wrong about the Wikipedia thing. I looked up Game Master on Wikipedia and it does say that worldbuilding is one of the responsibilities of the Game Master. Wikipedia even has an article on World Building that it links you to, and right at the top it tells you “A constructed world typically has a number of constructed cultures and constructed languages associated with it.” Then later it even mentions that creating languages was J.R.R. Tolkien’s start to Middle-earth. So an inexperienced GM can find out he or she might want to have languages in his or her game world by just reading Wikipedia.

And I have already said every game needs a setting of some kind, even DF games. I even think that a DF game setting might eventually make its way to e23. But remember, by your own admission above, that setting would largely be marketed to GMs playing GURPS, a subset of those who try out DF, and a subset of those who are afraid they will make disastrous decisions without it. That isn’t a huge number of people and SJG is right to focus its efforts where there is more demand for a product.

Anyway, I really don’t think that the player asking (even an inexperienced) Game Master what languages are appropriate to start out with at character creation is dropping nearly the bomb on him or her that you are trying to portray. I’d even say that even if an inexperienced GM, in retrospect, made a not-so-great call about what ancient language the wizard of the group put a few character points into during character creation , it isn’t going to be “disastrous decision” as far as things go. I bet the game will manage to go on and the mistake could even be rectified in time.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

While I was brushing my teeth, it occurred to me that GURPS does tell you to think about languages before that game starts. SJG provides us a free website of GURPS resources and play aids from which a GM (whether experienced or inexperienced) can download the official GURPS campaign planning form. It is a fantastic resource for an inexperienced GM to download and fill out before character creation to make sure he or she hits the high points of the game world. You will find it has a place for "Languages Available". So I would say GURPS absolutely does suggest the GM think about these things before hand and even provides an handy-dandy worksheet for free to GMs to help them out with these things.

Edit: Although IDHMBWM, I think this worksheet is in the GURPS books too, so that means by reading your GURPS books you can also know you might want to think about the languages of the game world.

Edit Edit: And that worksheet just list "Languages Available" under PC information. It doesn't prompt you to try and write down every language in the setting.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Kromm doesn't run my game; I do. If I decide to create a DF-themed world with only a few languages, I'll just take Language Talent out of the templates and replace it with something equivalent, or give the player those points for his own selections.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Why not revive all those less popular fantasy settings like Mystara, Birthright, Greyhawk, Darksun, Kalamar etc... ? Why make another new setting when there is so much oldies which can be recycled and it is much easier to keep the DF line Generic and Universal?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I totally agree.

For me, if DF had a setting, that would be a *flaw*, not a feature.
I like DF because it's 'generic' and easily adapted to your world of choice (or, to none at all; we are currently playing a truly "setting-free" campaign; it's a generic, D&Desque, anything-goes fantasy "setting" and the players take turns in GMing).

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

GURPS Basic Set II, page 505 for starters.

DF isn't played in a vacuum - it pretty much requires the Basic Set (and says as much). The Basic Set has a ton of information on world design.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Demonsbane briefly wanted to play a scholar lens, but I think he ran out of points.

No one has created a character with Language Talent.

So it hasn't come up. If it had, I'd add some languages and some language related challenges. Since it hasn't, I haven't.

No one has wanted to play a Bard* or Martial Artist, so I haven't created many challenges specific for them, either. I certainly can do so if it comes up.


* Harald has a Diplomat lens, and he has talked his way out of and into a few problems.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Most Dungeon Fantasy settings could fit entirely within one of the smaller continents of at least 48 known ones on Cidri; the place was big.

And pretty banestorm-y, too, albeit in a more deliberate sort of way, considering the way the Mnoren had stocked it with creatures and stuff from all kinds of different timelines.

Heck, Yrth itself could easily be placed on Cidri (you'd just have to assume that the planet rotated fast enough for a 24-hour cycle despite the circumference being bigger, which I think may have been the assumption in TFT anyway), and the Banestorm retconned as the Dark Elves activating a left-behind Mnoren device.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Rather than a supplement, which, as others note, would tend to constrain future DF supplements, why not a Pyramid article? An "official" DF supplement would tend to make future supplements which built off the "generic skeleton lists" less useful to a whole host of us who have our own settings, want to convert favorite old settings/modules, or just want to whip up a quick game (and really, those templates are perfect for a "pick-up" game).

As a Pyramid article, it could be a set of simple lists of languages, Hidden Lore specializations, etc., and perhaps a couple of small (5 paragraph or so) sample settings using the material from the DF series. Or instead, perhaps a tool for generating the DF skeleton for your players which includes suggestions for lists of languages, skill specializations, etc.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

The 0one stuff on e23 is excellent for this. Don't want to map something out? Here you go. And it's CHEAP (a lot of mileage for $2). I grabbed some of 'em and have used them in my DF game with great success.

Some of it has good tools for determining what you, as GM, wants in each room (legend at the end with blank lines for filling info in). Perhaps some supplement that suggests maps? I don't know how licensing would work, though...

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Cidri was very artificial. I'd actually have light and heat sources that orbited it, rather than vice versa.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

It was never really clear just how much was artificial, and how much of that was construction or terraforming. The thing about 48 continents up to a certain size, and a slightly more than 1:1 ocean to land ratio, only forces a conclusion of about 6 times Earth's surface area, and therefore something like 2.5 times the dimensions. That's almost 15 times the mass, if it has the same density as Earth (probably not a valid assumption), for that same 2.5 times surface gravity - so it would have to be made much less dense, whether naturally (which might imply metal ores being rarer) or through advanced technology ranging from honeycomb structure or antigrav.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I would not like to see DF tied to any particular setting.

I would be interested in a setting built to support DF.

D&D has had tons of such settings. They weren't necessary. A lot of folks never used them. Other folks got good use from them.

Plenty of dungeoneers in years gone by wandered all over the land, visiting cities and having adventures in fictional kingdoms and empires. Mostly we just made our own settings up - which is fine, just as it is in any game. Sharing common worlds with people can be fun too.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Aye. Games are for friends to have fun with. Once we can't be gentle with each other, we should go home.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

As long as the setting is optional, I don't think it should infect the rest of the DF line.

I think you are absolutely right that DF can be set in settings that people already like. The advantage of a new dedicated setting is that it can be made to fit the DF line of races and classes.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I would go for worked dungeons and encounters, but I don't think that a specific setting designed for DF would be a good idea. That would just constrain the creativity of both the setting and future DF books. If you have a setting, just make notes for how this or that would work if you play DF using that setting, or retrofit it with a supplement like DF: Banestorm or DF: Madlands.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Is there any particular reason that DF and a setting need be built for each other? Sure, I bet SJG could do a DF setting that would be awesome, but is there anything about a setting that makes it distinctly DF? Provided it doesn't conflict with the assumptions of DF, just about any classic fantasy setting can just be ported in with very little in the way of conversion. If there are some minor conflicts, they can probably be resolved (there are no druids in this setting, that setting has swashbucklers even though they were never mentioned in the source material).

DF presents, as has been said earlier, a style of play. It can be applied to almost any setting with very little effort.

I think the request should be presented as "GURPS needs a 'mass market' style fantasy setting" which would almost certainly have at least a text box for using it in with DF. I would imagine that it has been considered, and the concern is one of market saturation.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Need? No. There may be some advantages to building a setting specifically for DF though.

I think so. A setting is distinctly DF if it accomodates the races, classes and magic from DF, as well as the fact that there are great numbers of monsters living in holes in the ground.

It depends on what you want from the setting. If, for instance, you don't care about roleplay (a perfectly good play style for DF) it really doesn't matter that much how your PC fits into the world or how the world itself fits together.

I couldn't tell you what the market wants or what SJG should do with GURPS from a business point of view. I can say that speaking personally, I would be interested in a world built to support the races, classes and dungeon-memes of dungeon fantasy.

I get the impression from this thread that I'm in a minority, however!

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I still say this would make a great Pyramid article or set of articles. Tools for quick and dirty DF campaign building. A setting for it. Or, perhaps less ambitiously, a locale that would provide for good DF adventures in the neighborhood (one that included a background, though one vague enough to be grafted onto other worlds -- a few such, if stitched together, might provide a good "sandbox" world).

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Note that all DF characters are expected to speak a "common" language, regardless of the character's origin. Most Templates don't even offer the option of speaking more than one language. I brought this up a while ago.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I've read the whole thread, and I fail to see the difficulty.

From what I understand, the Dungeon Fantasy line is not intended for long-term adventuring, but to live out the old dungeon-delving days. And for me that means back in the day, when all we had was D&D basic and we peered in curiosity at this new-fangled "Advanced" version.

I have this huge-normous stack of Basic D&D adventure modules, some of them turning yellow from age, a couple with 30-year-old soda-pop stains on them. I've managed (with ridiculous ease) to just grab one, convert to GURPS 4e on the fly, and get a usable and playable result.

The setting exists. The 1st edition D&D stuff is available online and to the best of my knowledge not owned by anyone. So I fail to see any difficulty.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

I don't think DF needs an example/default setting/sandbox to be complete, but I think it would benefit from it.

My reason is this: the way I play DF is as an unabashed kill-monsters-and-take-their-stuff hack-and-slash game of old. It is used for stand-alone sessions where quickly build one-session characters try to win glory and gold in one night.
I will not hand craft a complete setting for that.

It is of course relatively easy to adapt most fantasy settings for DF, but even that means some prep work for the GM, and of course SJG can not publish support for (or even use as an example) e.g. Mystara.

It is also possible to go without a setting altogether. My DF style is very episodic, continuity not valued, and the World Outside The Dungeon is sketchy at best. But still: sometimes the PCs will really interact (as opposed to kill, buy, sell, and pick pockets) with the world. You can of course simply ad lib it, but I would like the option not to.

So I can see the benefit of a DF title which will sketch a sandbox where the GM can place his random dungeons and other stuff in.
And this sandbox doesn't need to (or should) be complex, but it should offer stuff like lists of languages and gods, and one liners for basic orientation (e.g. "Barbarians come from the frozen wastes of Mumbulon from the far north.", "This area, the Flat Tail Marsh, is a frontier province of the Badger Kingdom. The present ruler is Queen Gnawtooth.").

It would help GMs to run DF "out of the box" in the same way DF templates help players to create characters out of the box.
And for the DF line it would act as the semi-generic example background (which is needed to a certain degree anyway, see e.g. the race descriptions in DF3) for descriptions, locations, and (hopefully) adventures.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

Goto e23 and buy The Alchemical Baroque. It covers all your stated needs. Sure it's psudeo-Enlightenment rather than psudeo-Medieval, but it's still psudeo-European.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

The way I see it, anyone wanting an actual DF setting only has to strafe b-dog's multitude of DF threads here in the forums. He's done good work at building a setting, IMO; someone should collect the posts and put them into a Pyramid article.

(Ya hearin' me, b-dog?)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting
 

That's the GMs responsibility.

And, seriously, there are literally HUNDREDS of PDFs on e23 and RPGNow that will provide the material either to help you build a setting, or to provide you with one already made.