[Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

Inspired by the Economics thread here are my designs with basic economics calculated (using Far Trader economics as adjusted by G:Spaceships assumptions).

All ships are designed using David Pulver's JTAS article recommendation for creating Traveller ships with G:Spaceships. Principally this means one stardrive and fuel tank per jump number. Having already gone round the loop on this once I believe this is the best (or perhaps the least worst) option.

Ships in this thread are:

1000 ton (200 DT) Jump 1 Near Trader (Beowulf)
1000 ton (200 DT) Jump 2 Far Trader (Marava)
1000 ton (200 DT) Jump 3 Long Trader
300 ton (100 DT) Jump 2 Scout/Courier (Sulieman)
300 ton (100 DT) Jump 6 Express Boat
300 ton (100 DT) Interplanetary Shuttle
10,000 ton (2000 DT) Jump 4 Passenger Long Liner
10,000 ton (2000 DT) Jump 2 Freight Liner
300 ton (100 DT) Jump 4 Executive Yacht "Movable Feast"

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

1000 ton (200 DT) Jump 1 Near Trader (Beowulf)

Front
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 7
2-3 Habitat (10 cabins, 4 hibernation tubes, 1 sickbay with automed)
4-6 Cargo (150 tons)
0 Control Room (Cx 8, C/S 7, 4 workstations)

Central
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 7
2-4 Cargo (150 tons)
3 Hangar Bay (air/raft and up to 30 tons spaceworthy cargo)
6! Battery (Medium) 1 weapon, 30 tons cargo

Rear
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 7
2 Engine Room
3! Refinery (15 tons/hour)
4 Fuel Tank (50 tons hydrogen)
5! Stardrive (J1)
6 Hot Reactionless Thruster (1G/c)
0 Fusion Reactor (1 Power)

Options: Streamlined, Gravitic Compensators, Artificial Gravity

TL 10^
dST/HP 70
Hnd/SR -1/5
HT 13
Move 1G/c
LWt. 1000
Load 362
SM 8
Occ 20 ASV
dDR 7/7/7
Range 1
M$ 31
Passenger/Parsec $9,000
Cargo/Parsec $900

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

1000 ton (200 DT) Jump 2 Far Trader (Marava)

Front
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 7
2-3 Habitat (10 cabins, 4 hibernation tubes, 1 sickbay with automed)
4-6 Cargo (150 tons)
0 Control Room (Cx 8, C/S 7, 4 workstations)

Central
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 7
2 Cargo (50 tons)
3 Hangar Bay (air/raft and up to 30 tons spaceworthy cargo)
4-5 Fuel Tank (100 tons Hydrogen)
6! Battery (Medium) 1 weapon, 30 tons cargo

Rear
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 7
2 Engine Room
3! Refinery (15 tons/hour)
4-5!! Stardrive (Jump 2)
6 Hot Reactionless Thruster (1G/c)
0 Fusion Reactor (2 Power)

Options: Streamlined, Gravitic Compensators, Artificial Gravity

TL 10^
dST/HP 70
Hnd/SR -1/5
HT 13
Move 1G/c
LWt. 1000
Load 262
SM 8
Occ 20 ASV
dDR 7/7/7
Range 2
M$ 46
Passenger/Parsec $9,200
Cargo/Parsec $920

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

1000 ton (200 DT) Jump 3 Long Trader

Front
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 7
2-3 Habitat (10 cabins, 4 hibernation tubes, 1 sickbay with automed)
4-5 Cargo (100 tons)
6 Hangar Bay (up to 30 tons small craft and spaceworthy cargo)
0 Control Room (Cx 8, C/S 7, 4 workstations)

Central
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 7
2! Battery (Medium) 1 weapon, 30 tons cargo
3! Refinery (15 tons/hour)
4-6 Fuel Tank (150 tons hydrogen)

Rear
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 7
2 Engine Room
3-5!!! Stardrive (Jump 3)
6! Hot Reactionless Thruster (1G)
0 Super Fusion (3 Power)

Options: Streamlined, Gravitic Compensators, Artificial Gravity

TL 10^
dST/HP 70
Hnd/SR -1/5
HT 13
Move 1G/c
LWt. 1000
Load 162
SM 8
Occ 20 ASV
dDR 7/7/7
Range 3
M$ 69
Passenger/Parsec $13,000
Cargo ton/Parsec $1,300

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

300 ton (100 DT) Jump 2 Sulieman class Scout/Courier

Front
1 Armor (Advanced Laminate) dDR 7
2-3 Habitat (4 cabins)
4-6 Cargo (45 tons)
0 Control Room (Cx 7, C/S 6, 3 workstations)

Central
1 Armor (Advanced Laminate) dDR 7
2 Hangar Bay (air/raft and up to 10 tons spaceworthy cargo or small subcraft)
3! Refinery (5 tons/hour)
4-5 Fuel Tank (30 tons hydrogen)
6! Battery (Medium) 1 weapon,
0 Not Used

Rear
1 Armor (Advanced Laminate) dDR 7
2 Engine Room
3-4!! Stardrive (J2)
5-6!! Hot Reactionless Thruster
0 Fusion Reactor (2 Power)

Options: Streamlined, Stealth, Chameleon, Gravitic Compensators, Artificial Gravity

TL 10^
dST/HP 50
Hnd/SR -1/5
HT 13
Move 2G/c
LWt. 300
Load 66
SM 7
Occ 8 ASV
dDR 7/7/7
Range 2
M$ 19
Passenger/Parsec $17,000
Cargo/Parsec $1,700

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

300 ton (100 DT) Jump 6 Express Boat

Front
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR7
2-5 Fuel Tank (60 tons hydrogen)
6 Habitat (2 cabins)
0 Control Room (Cx 7, C/S 6, 3 workstations)

Central
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR7
2-C!!!!!! Stardrive (Jump 6)

Rear
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR7
2-3 Fuel Tank (30 tons hydrogen)
4-5 Super Fusion (6 Power)
6! Hot Reactionless Thruster (1G)

Options: Gravitic Compensators, Artificial Gravity

TL 10^
dST/HP 50
Hnd/SR -1/5
HT 12
Move 1G/c
LWt. 300
Load 0.4
SM 7
Occ 4 ASV
dDR 7/7/7
Range 6
M$ 37
Cargo/Parsec $9,100

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

300 ton (100 DT) Interplanetary Shuttle

Front
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 5
2-6 Habitat (10 cabins)
0 Control Room (Cx 7, C/S 6, 3 Workstations)

Central
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 5
2-6 Habitat (10 cabins)

Rear
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 5
2 Engine Room
3-4 Cargo
5-6!! Hot Reactionless Thruster (2G)
0 Fusion Reactor (2 Power)

Options: Streamlined, Gravitic Compensators, Artificial Gravity

TL 10^
dST/HP 50
Hnd/SR -1/5
HT 13
Move 2G/c
LWt. 300
Load 34
SM 7
Occ 40 ASV
dDR 5/5/5
Range 0
M$ 10
Passenger/Trip $1,200
Cargo ton/Trip $120

Earth-Mars trip time 2.7 days median

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

10,000 ton (2000 DT) Jump 4 Passenger Long Liner

Front
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 15
2-5 Habitat (96 cabins, 48 luxury cabins, 96 hibernation capsules, 2 cells, 5 briefing rooms, 5 establishments, 4 offices, 3 sickbays with 1 automed)
6 Hangar Bay (up to 300 tons of escape craft/pods and spaceworthy cargo)
0 Control Room (Cx 9, C/S 9, 11 workstations)

Central
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 15
2! Battery (Tertiary) 3 weapons, 405 tons cargo
3-6 Fuel Tank (2000 tons hydrogen)

Rear
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 15
2-5!!!! Stardrive (Jump 4)
6! Hot Reactionless Thruster (1G)
0 Super Fusion (4 Power)

Options: Streamlined, Chameleon (for show), Gravitic Compensators, Artificial Gravity

TL 10^
dST/HP 150
Hnd/SR -2/5
HT 13
Move 1G/c
LWt. 10000
Load 732
SM 10
Occ 288 ASV
dDR 15/15/15
Range 4
M$ 866
Passenger/Parsec $7,600
Cargo/Parsec $760

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

10,000 ton (2000 DT) Jump 2 Freight Liner

Front
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 15
2-5 Cargo (2000 tons)
6 Habitat (20 cabins, 250 tons steerage cargo)
0 Control Room (Cx 9, C/S 9, 11 workstations)

Central
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 15
2! Battery (Tertiary) 3 weapons, 405 tons cargo
3-6 Cargo (2000 tons)

Rear
1 Armor (Metallic Laminate) dDR 15
2-3 Fuel Tank (1000 tons)
4-5!! Stardrive (Jump 2)
6! Hot Reactionless Thruster (1G)
0 Fusion Reactor (2 Power)

Options: Streamlined, Gravitic Compensators, Artificial Gravity


TL 10^
dST/HP 150
Hnd/SR -2/5
HT 13
Move 1G/c
LWt. 10000
Load 4657
SM 10
Occ 20 ASV
dDR 15/15/15
Range 2
M$ 422
Cargo/Parsec $770

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

1000 ton (200 DT) Jump 3 Long Trader (name?)
Likely the 400 ton Fat trader

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

Comparing the cost per passenger or cargo ton for a range of ships built to the same method as above gives:

Cargo ton per parsec
$730 J1 Cargo Liner
$710 J1+J1 Cargo Liner
$770 J2 Cargo Liner
$930 J2+J1 Cargo Liner
$1050 J3 Cargo Liner
$900 J2+J2 Cargo Liner
$1500 J4 Cargo Liner
$1100 J3+J2 Cargo Liner
$2900 J5 Cargo Liner
$1400 J3+J3 Cargo Liner

$900 J1 Beowulf
$930 J2 Marava
$1300 J3 Long Trader

Passenger Price* per parsec
$4400 J1 Passenger Liner
$4300 J1+J1 Passenger Liner
$4100 J2 Passenger Liner
$5000 J2+J1 Passenger Liner
$5300 J3 Passenger Liner
$4800 J2+J2 Passenger Liner
$7600 J4 Passenger Liner
$6200 J3+J2 Passenger Liner
$15000 J5 Passenger Liner
$6900 J3+J3 Passenger Liner
$34000 J6 Passenger Liner

$9000 J1 Beowulf
$9300 J2 Marava
$13000 J3 Long Trader

And this assumes the same utilization and stopover times for the Tramps as the liners.

Conclusions:
The Refinery needed by tramps to allow wilderness refuelling for adventuring purposes significantly reduces their profitability when competing in places where refined fuel is available.

Tramps need to charge at least 25% more than Liners for cargo, and probably at least 50% more as they will tend to have emptier holds.

Tramps need to charge at least double for passengers.

Cargo wont travel by anything above Jump-2 unless astrography dictates and will almost certainly travel on double hop liners on single jumps that are four or more parsecs.

Passengers probably wont travel above Jump-4 on liners and Jump-2 on tramps. They may take lower TL and cheaper double-jump liners on four or more parsec gaps.

*Passenger sharing a cabin. Luxury passengers and single occupancy passengers pay twice this. Low Passengers pay half this.

Economics are based on: 12% of ships cost repaid/year, depreciation 8%/year, $10K/month/crew member, Insurance 1.2%/year, 5% RoC, 90% utilization.

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

You realize that these are not even remotely like the canonical values? They're not wrong by any means -- probably more realistic, if the truth be told -- but then the results aren't comparable to what has been previously published for Traveller.

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

The mortgage and insurance are from G:Spaceships 2. Utilization is from Far Trader. Salary is a generalized figure off the Jobs table and has minimal impact anyway. I extrapolated depreciation based on mortgage period.

I would rather be more "realistic".

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

So would I, especially where the canonical material implies persistent economic disequilibrium (a.k.a. opportunities for [supernormal] profit, a.k.a. "economic perpetual motion machines", a.k.a. "money trees").

Far Trader made an heroic effort at eradicating the money trees in freight transport demand (though I conclude on examination that it ought to have considered J-3 trade routes). I would be nothing averse to attacking the disequilibriums in transport supply.

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

On a 4-parsec leg the J4 saves one week at a cost of G$2,400 per ton. With the interest rate on commercial paper at, say, 7% that's economic on freight worth G$1.7 million per ton or more. I doubt that there is enough volume at that sort of value to keep J-4 lines in business.

The J-2 liner is both faster and cheaper.

On a 4-parsec leg the J-4 liner saves one week at a cost of $11,200 per passenger (middle passage). It will be preferred only by passengers with BVOT of G$1,600 per day or more. That probably includes executives and professionals. But the high generalised cost of a trip (at least G$41,600 one way, including G$30,400 fare plus at least G$11,200 value of time) and the small economic volumes of planets in the TU suggest that potential traffic volumes will be small, probably too small to sustain a line, especially given the sensitivity of such travellers to headway and the long cycle times on thin routes.

The J-5 liner saves one week at a cost of G$32,400 per passenger (middle passage). It will be preferred over the J3+J3 only by passengers with a BVOT over G$4,630 per day. Such people exist, but there probably aren't enough of them to keep lines in business.

J3+J3 liners will be challenged by J3+J2 liners with more staterooms and fewer fuel tanks, which will still further thin the market for J5 liners.

On a 4-parsec leg with a potential refuelling stop in the middle, the J2+J2 saves the trip in from the 100D limit and back and waiting/refuelling time at the intermediate port, at a cost of G$2,800 and the opportunity for a brief stop-over.

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

Interesting.

Converting those figures to a per-Jump basis for convenience we get:

$4,400 J1 passenger liner
$8,200 J2 passenger liner
$9,600 J2+J2 passenger liner
$15,900 J3 passenger liner
$30,400 J4 passenger liner

Let's consider the route from Regina to Aramis as an illustrative example.

The distance is 12 parsecs, but astrography does not allow a (J2, J2, J2, J2, J2, J2) route. The (J2, J2, J2, J2, J2, J2, J1) route [Regina, Yori, Treece, Kinorb, Risek, Henoz, L'Oeul d'Dieu or Vinorian, Aramis] takes 64.5 days and would cost G$53,600.

[Regina, Yori, Treece, Kinorb, Risek, Henoz, Aramis] is (J2, J2, J2, J2, J2, J3) takes 55 days and would cost G$56,900.

[Regina, Yori, Treece, Kinorb, Risek, hex 2911, Aramis] is (J2, J2, J2, J2, J2+2, J2+2) takes 53 days and would cost G$52,000. It is both cheaper and faster than the route with the extra refuelling stop and the route with the J1 leg.

[Regina, Yori, Inthe, Risek, L'Oeul d'Dieu, Aramis] is (J2, J3, J3, J3, J2) takes 45.5 days and would cost G$64,100. Contrary to the case in Far Trader costs it does not dominate the best six-Jump route: indeed it is preferred only at BVOT above G$1,600 per day, which is fairly high.

[Regina, Yori, Inthe, Risek, Aramis] is (J2, J3, J3, J4), takes 36 days and costs G$70,400. That is preferred over the 5-Jump route at a BVOT of only $665 per day, which includes all passengers who prefer the 5-Jump route over the 6-Jump route. The 5-Jump route is uneconomic, and the four-Jump route is preferred over the 6-Jump route by all passengers with a BVOT over G$1,080 per day.

[Regina, Treece, Risek, Aramis] is (J4, J4, J4), takes 26.5 days and costs G$91,200. It is preferred over the J-4 route by passengers with a BVOT over G$2,190 per day.

We conclude that there are only three economic services between Regina and Aramis.

• Passengers with a BVOT under G$1,080 per day prefer [Regina, Yori, Treece, Kinorb, Risek, hex 2911, Aramis] in a J2 liner transshipping at Risek to a J2+J2 liner.
• Passengers with a BVOT between G$1,080 per day and G$2,190 per day prefer [Regina, Yori, Inthe, Risek, Aramis]. J2 on the first leg, J4 on the last, transshipping twice.
• passengers with BVOT over G$2,190 per day prefer [Regina, Treece, Risek, Aramis] in a J-4 express liner.

G$1,080 per day is not a very high BVOT. The J4 service Aramis-Risek may be viable.

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

Interesting. I will analyze later.

Note: I added in the missing liners above:

$930 J2+1 Cargo liner

$5000 J2+J1 Passenger Liner
$6200 J3+J2 Passenger Liner
$34000 J6 Passenger Liner

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

You seem to be using around 9.2 days per jump (though I thought you were using 9.5), so shouldn't this be 27.6 days. And BVOT looks only to be around G$1540.

I think there is a fourth. I am quite liking a J2+J2 liner on that last route. Only G$57600 and 48.6 days. BVOT of G$1270 per day. Faster than the seven, and both six jump routes.

And with the BVOT spreads now close together at 1080, 1270 and 1540 I suspect that it collapses to the base route and the J2+J2 liner route - or maybe even just the cheap J2+J2 liner route. No transshipping, and the slightly slower pace gives the demand a chance to build between visits.

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

I'm using 9.5 days per Jump minus 2 days for passenger time, because I figure that passengers will not come aboard for initial loading or stay aboard for final unloading. But in the case of ships taking a double Jump I slice off another 2 days at each deep-space Jump because I reckon that it will not be necessary to cruise in from the 100D limit or to unload, load, and fuel between the Jumps.

Sometimes I make arithmetic errors, especially when I don't do a formal plot. But in this case I think I had it right. Compared with the next slower economic option this saves 9.5 days at a cost of G$20,800, which is G$2,190 per day.

Six Jumps in a J2+J2 liner at 7 days each, with two port calls (at Treece and Risek) at 2.5 days each, half a day for each deep-space Jump, and half a day for the ends. That's 49 days on the basis I was using. Six Jumps at G$9,600 per Jump is G$57,600.

Compared with [Regina, Yori, Treece, Kinorb, Risek, (hex 2911), Aramis] (53 days, G$52,000) it is 4 days faster but $5,600 more expensive. It would be preferred at a BVOT of G$1,400 per day or above. Compared with [Regina, Yori, Inthe, Risek, Aramis] (36 days, G$70,400) it is 13 days slower but G$12,800 cheaper, so it is preferred at BVOT below G$984 per day. There are no BVOT values that are both below G$984 and above G$1,400, so all passengers prefer on of the alternatives and this service is not economic.

I figure that it has a narrow niche if the time between arriving and departing at a deep space Jump is short.

Well, demand building between visits is a double-edged sword, since it means that you lose a lot of passengers whose BVOT is high because they have to meet a deadline. (This is the problem of headway.) Express services need a short headway to be viable, because wait time for the service is a cost in time-critical applications, even if the wait time can be used productively.

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

Thanks for those enlightening explanations. I think I am beginning to more fully understand it now.

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

Canon (Book 5, p. 17) says minimum of 16 hours.

Re: [Spaceships]Traveller Ships with economics
 

300 ton (100 DT) Jump 4 Executive Yacht "Movable Feast"

The “Movable Feast” is a typical privately owned or charter yacht used by large corporations and the wealthy. Capable of moving trouble-shooters to corporate hot spots quickly it is in high demand. When a corporate sector or sub-sector HQ receives word of problems arising in one of its subsidiaries, or a major opportunity that is happening on a nearby world, they need to dispatch appropriate experts immediately. Typically they cannot wait for the scheduled liner to pass through which could be days or weeks away. Unless an express liner is in port right now they charter a yacht (or use their own).

With up to four crew occupying two of the cabins, the passenger accommodations consist of two luxury cabins and two ordinary cabins capable of carrying up to 8 passengers plus five tons of personal cargo. A small board room provides an executive style working environment.

Front
1 Armor (Advanced Laminate) dDR 7
2-6 Habitat (4 cabins, 2 luxury cabins, 1 briefing room, 5 tons steerage cargo)
0 Control Room (Cx 7, C/S 6, 3 workstations)

Central
1 Armor (Advanced Laminate) dDR 7
2-5 Fuel Tank (60 tons hydrogen)
6 Engine Room

Rear
1 Armor (Advanced Laminate) dDR 7
2-5!!!! Stardrive (Jump-4)
6! Hot Reactionless Thruster (1G/c)
0 Super Fusion (4 Power)

Stats
TL 10^
dST/HP 50
Hnd/SR -1/5
HT 13
Move 1G
LWt. 300
Load 6.2
SM 7
Occ 12 ASV
dDR 7/7/7
Range 4
M$ 28
Regular scheduled service:
Passenger/Parsec $8,500 mid passage, $17,000 High Passage
Passenger/Jump $34,000 mid passage, $68,000 High Passage

Whole ship charter: at least $400,000 per jump or $36K per day