[Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

My Space campaign is very roughly based on Traveller IW, but I'm using Spaceships for ship design and developing some home rules for things like EW, variant missiles etc.

Here's a first pass at a TL10^ Arsenal Ship (per my asides with Molokh), for my first Spaceships post to the forums.

The Arsenal Ship is designed to provide massive missile fire support to a task group and usually has a couple of small EW escorts as extra protection. All of its missile systems can accept target designation from other fleet vessels through a distributed data network. It gives the firepower of a carrier without putting all those highly-trained pilots or a large crew in danger. It has fuel for a "jump 2 to battle, jump 1 to safety" tactic.

Critiques welcome. Also anyone who wants to take a bash at designing variant missiles (partially-stealthy "coast-and final boost", EW/Decoy, MIRV, MIRV-PD etc.), drone fighters or drone PD platforms please do so :-)

Regards, C

EDIT - Altered power point requirements, added one tertiary battery and revised steerage cargo.

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

A point defence drone for the Arsenal Ship:

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Arsenal ship observations

Note that missile launchers are not high energy systems (Launcher Types p29), so you can save yourself a reactor or so.

Note also that a stealth hull wont benefit you against passive sensors when you are using a fusion reactor (Countermeasures p45)

Note that your habitat has 556 unused cabin spaces = 2780 tons steerage cargo.

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Your missile launchers don't need power unless they're warp missiles. Other than that, here's my stab at a PD drone:


Protector Class PD Drone

Forward Hull
[1] Medium Battery ! (3x VRF Improved Laser Turrets, 30KJ)
[2] Medium Battery ! (3x VRF Improved Laser Turrets, 30KJ)
[3] Medium Battery ! (3x VRF Improved Laser Turrets, 30KJ)
[4] Medium Battery ! (3x VRF Improved Laser Turrets, 30KJ)
[5] Medium Battery ! (3x VRF Improved Laser Turrets, 30KJ)
[6] Fusion Reactor (2pp)

Midships Hull
[1] Defensive ECM (lvl 6)
[2] Tactical Array (C/S 6)
[3] Medium Battery ! (3x VRF Improved Laser Turrets, 30KJ)
[4] Medium Battery ! (3x VRF Improved Laser Turrets, 30KJ)
[5] Medium Battery ! (3x VRF Improved Laser Turrets, 30KJ)
[6] Fusion Reactor (2pp)
[Core] Fusion Reactor (2pp)

Aft Hull
[1] Control Room (C6 computer, Lvl 4 Sensors, 1 Control Station)
[2] Medium Battery ! (3x VRF Improved Laser Turrets, 30KJ)
[3] M-Drive Hot Reactionless Thruster ! (1G)
[4] M-Drive Hot Reactionless Thruster ! (1G)
[5] Fusion Reactor (2pp)
[6] Fusion Reactor (2pp)
[Core] Fusion Reactor (2pp)

TL: 10^ SM+5
dST: 20 dHP: 20 HT: 12
Hnd: 0 SR: 4
Move: 2/c

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Pentad ship observations:

You are one power point short.

Ideally you should put PD weapons in the center hull rather than the front as that eliminates any bearing issues (Bearing p57)

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Diomedes - good design, I'll be using it if that's OK :-)

thtraveller - I like to give folks difficult choices to make and the design philosphy I use is the offer a choice to cut thrust or use less weaponry, with the plus being it can mount heavier or more weapons in the first place.

As to bearing, for a small PD drone it shouldn't be a problem. Since the Arsenal Ship can carry up to 100 of the things, and one can target a whole salvo as if it were one target, the fixed forward just gives it +2 to hit on its designated target.

I'll need to revise the designs as I'd missed the bit about missiles not needing power points. And the steerage cargo bit is just forgetful of me.

As to the Stealth Hull, I read it as being ineffective only if the signature+range modifiers were over 5. that means using one makes the difference between being easily detectable system-wide and at maybe 1AU, which is a lot of difference when tactics are considered. To me, it makes more sense that way - I don't believe our current TL sensors would automatically notice a fusion reactor out by Saturn, for instance.

Regards, C

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Diomedes, I cost the Protector PD Drone at $4.44 million with total automation, no armor, no stealth or chameleon etc. It makes a great close-defense drone but doesn't quite have the survivability of the Pentad, which I think would make a marginally better outer screen drone (or a lurk-until-needed type, powered down).

Regards, C

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

I believe the Stealth becomes inoperative if only the signature modifiers are over five. Otherwise it would be trivial to swamp the modifier with range penalties.


I went to Atomic Rocket, and plugged in the detection range for the given example: a spaceship the size of an Oscar- class submarine, with a fission reactor at 800K, and got 2.7 AU. It can't be seen from Saturn with current technology, but it can be seen from the asteroid belt.

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Hi Diomedes,

I've already got reactionless drives and jump engines. What's another handwave to restore some tactical variation for gaming? I'm keeping my house rule on stealth and range modifiers. :-)

It's a pretty small handwave, btw.

Take an SM8 ship using that power/drive combo as a first rough example.

Worst Case Sensor detection:

SM +8
Plain Sight +10
Deep Space +24
IR Signature +10 TOTAL signature mods: +56

Therefore Modifiers At Ranges:

Combat: Close :46, Point Blank: 26, Close: 22, Short: 18, Long: 14, Extreme: 10
Auto-detect at all ranges.
Astronomical: 1LS: 6, 5LS(1 million miles): 2, 100LS/0.1AU:-4, 1AU: -10, 10AU: -16, 75AU/whole system: -19

That's before you add in actively looking because you're expecting trouble, telescopic vision modifiers, sensor level bonuses etc.

Stealth and chameleon don't add much, but they do add a little using my house rule. In ideal circumstances, small craft (SM8 or less) can manage surprise at near to combat range. That makes piracy possible again, for one thing. If you have system-wide detection and reactionless drives, combat only happens if someone doesn't run and is very predictable when it does happen. :-)

Regards, C

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Come to think of it, if Stealth only works on signature modifiers under 5 and SM is a signature modifier, what was the point?

And what's the deal with the 152 ton loaded weight B-2 Stealth Bomber?

Regards, C

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

I read "signature" as referring to "IR signature" modifier, since thats the main thing that makes stealth in space so hard. Still lets you have stealthed space stations, satellites, atmospheric jets, and powered down craft, but no craft with any sort of reactor or space drive beyond mass drivers or ion drives(maybe a magsail too).

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

SM is not a signature modifier; only the "IR signature" modifiers at the bottom of page SS44 are.

As for the Stealth Bomber, stealth is a lot easier in an atmosphere or on a planet. Its radar-absorbent structure is designed for use against active radar. Spaceship designers could do the same thing, but would be unlikely to bother when their creations could be detected anyway through passive IR.

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Yup, you're correct, no argument. On re-reading, that's what it says. So my SM8 fusion-powered hot reactionless drive ship has a total detection modifier against a similiar SM8 ship using just normal sensors and a full 3 min turn to scan of 66. That's at least 1AU detection (Skill 10 +66-66 = 10, or automatic detection). An SM12 battlewagon will be detected at 10AU much of the time (Skill 10 +70-72 = 8).

Aw crap, that makes for boring space combat. Maybe realistic, but I don't like it. Is there any room in a game for pirates given such ranges? There's certainly no room for tactical manouvering. Either fight in a numbers-game combat or run away with a 10AU lead.

I still like my handwave on Stealth applying after all other modifiers including range are taken into account. It makes tactics interesting again. Sure, it's unrealistic but so are the concepts of no useful EW, dumb unvaried missiles and gunners in turrets that are RAW.

Regards, C

Has anyone worked out what the modifiers for an SM7 TL8 B-2 Stealth Bomber would be, just to test the modifiers against a real world example?

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

That's what the Cloaking device is for, I suppose.

My own personal bête noire is the way missiles tend to be one-hit-one kill, which is also a bit of realism that makes the game less enjoyable.
A stealth bomber is only stealthed against active radar, against which spaceships can defend as well as it can; it would likely have the same problems if you were to chuck it out into space, with no air to absorb the heat.

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

I designed a stealth warship...Also, there's room for tactical maneuvering, but not for stealthy tactical maneuvering with hot drives and reactors (if you have a signature for hot drives...I don't think there was one in the book). Cold drives and fuel cells, on the other hand, work fine.

You can potentially do some degree of stealth with rockets or fission rockets, due to the facing modifier to drive IR signature.

There is no reason in the world for your defense drone to have major battery VRF lasers. 100KJ is still completely useless against TL10 warships (1d damage against 7 defense for SM+5 nanocomposite), so you might as well have three times as many mounts.

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

I did some related stealth space interceptor missiles here http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=13

Short term craft with fuel cells or MHDs for stealth are certainly doable and cheap - and there are a few designs around on the forums.

Or using combination power supplies and tactics: Get up to speed and on course using a reactor while out of detection range - then coast and switch to the fuel cell/MHD for final approach - then power up everything once combat begins.

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Ulzgoroth, it does give a little bit of standoff range (C/S as opposed to C) for anti-missile fire though, which allows a layered defense. I like that, and I'm considering using the Pentad along with Diomedes' Protector PD Drone in a 1:2 ratio. That little extra damage helps clear up armored missiles too - such as thtraveller's SIM10/11 series or more heavily armored versions. With dDR of 0.7, a 30KJ laser isn't going to cut it (pardon the pun) enough times that a defender will be comfortable with relying just on them.

thtraveller, those missiles are sweet. If I use my houserule for ECM/ECCM systems, they get three Lvl2 suites and a C4 brain (for the base Op's skill) for a max Quick Contest of Skill 10 (or 3 of Skill6). They're not going to win too often against a battlewagon's suite but that's just fine by me. I want high attrition rates for missiles. But for an extra 60k they can have three Lvl 4 Hi-power suites, which changes the equation against many targets enough to make life interesting (QC16 max).

(Or, I could mix the salvo with unarmored ECM missiles, three extra slots for hi-power ECM suites and the max Quick Contest becomes 28, which will give an SM8 battlewagon with a solitary normal ECM suite (QC21) a headache. And the ECM missiles are still kinetic-kill too even if easier for PD to take down when it can see it. Oh, I love an arms race!)

Regards, C

PS On the B-2: I figure the total modifiers vs a fighter with combined radar/ir/telescopic sensors (e.g. a late-model Su or Mig fighter or a late-model Russian SAM system) against a dark sky to be 18. That seems an awful lot compared with the B-2s real-life performance expectations.

Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ Arsenal Ship
 

Oh chit, I forgot.

I wanted to thank all of you for your help. I know I come across as abrasively blunt in my writing style, but I really do appreciate all the aid and ideas, especially from those who have pointed out stuff I've missed in the rules.

Thanks, C