Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

Was the American Civil war a revolution? What were the underlying aims, forget the stuff about slaves, because those slaves would become new workers. Their means of exploitation changed to a more profitable one. The South did not like the North imposing, But the North knew which way it was to develop the means of production, and this meant dragging the South kicking and screaming into modernity.

I did not say they were socialist inspired. More correctly these were top down revolutions because of the lesson of 1848. The danger of revolution is not being able to control the forces sent into revolt.

I agree there, even Washington had a few 'zealous' american rebels shot, likewise Cromwell had done similar to the Levellers and Diggers.

Most of the great Bourgeois Revolutions are bourne of blood. One class is imposing its will on the old ruling class. The danger is not to 'over play the hand' and timing is everything.

In all social upheavels there are many things going on, not just fighting, but debates, decisions are made and things change. Even in failed revolution what was may not exist as before because a revolt has taken place.

Therefore in the classic bourgeois revolutions to win you must be prepared to attack those who shared your victory. To stop the revolution from going too far. And in the Russian revolution it was the opposite, the conditions of taking the revolution to it logical end were removed and this sowed the seeds of counter revolutiony forces but they were not without but within. The revolution had to be halted, the terms of the revolution were changed and crudely put the socialist revolution was deflected into a Bourgeois revolution. Thus proving Bismark and Garibaldi right (45-50 years later), that revolutions from below were to dangerous to organise.

Stalin was Russia's moderniser, their Bourgeois visionary and the crippled economy of 1922 was catapulted into a huge economy in the 1930s (I could find comparative figures) but the reality was it was booming whilst the rest of the world was in recession.

There and now it feels like I have treatised!

Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

Actually, that's my view, though for convoluted reasons (and I prefer the policies of the Lenin era to the Stalinist methodology).

Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

In that case you may mean this ;)

Revo. = Revolution is/was good

BTW revolutions and defining them as good is relative. You could argue the chance to change the existing condition presents itself and you have to play the ultimate game of poker, the one where you may be convinced you have a sure thing but there is a small chance of losing everything.

Hey I'm good with metaphors!

Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

No, I don't, actually. As I said, my opinion was convoluted.

I think the USSR itself did a hell of a lot of good, -even with the excesses of Stalinism-. But I'm not really a fan of -Marxist- revolution, and even with what I like about Lenin, I think that a Marxist revolution after establishing a bourgeoisie was the wrong exit strategy.

The reason I prefer Leninist policies was because of what Lenin actually got to do, not his final plans for re-revolution once the state got back on its feet. If I were going to time-travel to fix the problem, I'd purge Stalin and put Bukharin in charge in 1927 or so.

Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

Nobody said you did. You just didn't explain what the list was meant to
illustrate (very clearly) and then Ramidel further confused the issue by
sounding as if the failure and feeding habits of revolutions are due to
flaws in Marxist/Socialist/Communist theory.

Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

Would someone mind if I casually mention the original topic of the thread ? ;)

Accidentally, I was just listening to a radio drama version of Doctor Zhivago (in German), which reminded me of this premium source for inspiration for portraying the Russian civil war from the civilian perspective.

Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

Probably not, but since the question was sort of answered in the first
sentence of the second post:
some might consider doing so unnecessary. :p

Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

There is a saying in Germany, which might be perfectly applicable now : Everything has already been said, but not by everyone. ;)

Also, when will I ever again get the chance to mention Doctor Zhivago in this forum ?

Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

Well, I think the Russian Civil War pops up here from time to time...

At least until GURPS The Gap Between Steampunk/Victorian Period And
1925 When The Cliffhangers Timeline Begins (Possibly GURPS Great War or,
somewhat inaccurately, GURPS Edwardian Age for short) gets proposed,
written, accepted, published and popular/big enough to have its own sub-
forum.

Re: russian civil war (osterns)
 

^well here's hoping =O)