Unsubduable
 

At an estimate, what point cost would be good for the inability to be knocked unconscious? So far there are traits that make it harder to be subdued and able to recover from it much quicker, but there doesn't seem to be one that allows someone to stay conscious without a roll.

Re: Unsubduable
 

I'd look at the cost for those traits and price it comparably to high levels of them.

But I think there is a skill like this somewhere, seems like it costs 150 pts and may be more than just subduable. It includes HPT.... damn I just read it last night, its in the basic book....

Re: Unsubduable
 

I don't think you can, for the same reason you can't have an Affliction that bypasses the HT roll altogether: You can't have infinite effectiveness for a finite cost. All you can do is buy very high levels of Hard to Subdue, possibly combined with Doesn't Sleep.

Re: Unsubduable
 

Er, unless I misunderstand, you can have an Affliction which doesn't allow resistance; It's one of the main uses of the Cosmic enhancement. Also, there are already advantages that give you the same 'infinite effectiveness'. Unkillable completely bypasses death checks and Immunity makes you totally impervious to various hazards, to give two examples. Am I just misinterpreting your point?

Re: Unsubduable
 

[QUOTE=Kelsan]No, that's something Cosmic doesn't do. It can be used to eliminate things like Mindblocks that add to resistance, but there's always a resistance roll or a dodge roll.
Death _checks_ yes but not death. You still die even with Unkillable, although with higher levels you get to come back.

Re: Unsubduable
 

There is an advantage in the basic book that cost around 150 that is basically immunity from subdual, shock, and a few other things....

Ill look it up after dinner

Re: Unsubduable
 

"No version of Cosmic bypasses the resistance roll against Affliction [...]. Despite its name, 'irresistible attack' simply negates protection such as DR and Mind Shield." (GURPS Powers page 101)

I'm working by analogy from the notion that Affliction can't be irresistible, but you can just as easily make the point that "Unsubduable" is to "Hard to Subdue" as "Unkillable" is to "Hard to Kill." Unkillable 1 costs 50 points, which works out to 25 levels of Hard to Kill. By the same token, Unsubduable would cost the same as 25 levels of hard to subdue - 50 points. I think "Unsubduable" compares more readily to Unkillable 1 because, as is the case with Unkillable 1, the character can still be neutralised given enough damage - destruction of the body, with Unkillable 1, and actually killing him, with Unsubduable.

EDIT: But as David Jonston said, Unkillable doesn't really compare since it protects the character from the permanent effects of death, not from being taken out of combat.

Re: Unsubduable
 

B89 Supernatural Durability

Thats what I was thinking about

Re: Unsubduable
 

No, Cosmic: Irresistable Attack means you don't get any bonus to the HT roll from DR, Resistant, equipment etc. (unless they're enhanced by Cosmic as well). The only way to effectively disallow a resistance roll is to have sufficient levels of Affliction to penalise their roll below 3, meaning they cannot succeed.

I'd certainly allow it. I'd probably price it like Unfazeable, equivalent to 7.5 levels of Hard to Subdue. So 15 points. Seems fairly cheap, but it really only does one thing and is only appropriate to some characters (I'd limit it to beings who don't have a non-conscious state, making them effectively ineligible for unconsciousness)

Re: Unsubduable
 

That includes immunity to being knocked out but is much broader.

Re: Unsubduable
 

You can still die with Unkillable 1, but with the two higher levels you NEVER die.

Level 2: you are rendered unconscious at -10xHP, but you're not dead.

Level 3: You immediately become an insubstantial being at -10xHP, but you're not dead.

Re: Unsubduable
 

So start there and narrow it up?

Re: Unsubduable
 

Supernatural Durability, p.B89.

Re: Unsubduable
 

Add ablative DR to taste.

Re: Unsubduable
 

There are several cases of stepped advantages and such that lead to a finally priced absolute version. They might be appropriate models for pricing an absolute level of Hard to Subdue. Consider:

-Resistant thru Immune

-Fearless thru Unfazeable

-Extended Lifespan / Unaging

-Less sleep/Doesn't Sleep

-Extended Duration/Permanent.

Re: Unsubduable
 

What the? Do I have to ask Fade to make a pop-up going directly to 5.2.3 and 5.2.4?

Re: Unsubduable
 

I'd call it 20 points.

Reason:
-Hard to Subdue is 2pts / level. For most characters, 8 levels of Hard to Subdue means that you're rolling against 18 to avoid falling unconcious. 18 is a nice number, for 3d6.

-Compare to Less Sleep and Doesn't Sleep. Less Sleep costs 2pts / level, and 8 levels of Less Sleep would mean you never have to sleep, if it were allowed. But instead, you're supposed to take Doesn't Sleep, which costs 20 points.

Seems equivalent enough to me.

Re: Unsubduable
 

*shrug* Blame the authors for deciding to name the stupid enhancement "Irresistible Attack". Unfortunately, there are many people in this world who don't bother reading the actual description of something and just judge it by its name alone.

Re: Unsubduable
 

...
<<
>>
What?!

heh

Maybe one day I'll collect all the little troublesome bits like that and start a thread "4E Pet peeves" :/

... or has that already been done :?

Re: Unsubduable
 

Old Thread

EDIT in bold and underlined: Alternatively:
Unconsciousness is an "Affliction", Basic set page 428-429.
Immunity can protect you from “Afflictions” So:

Immunity to All Unconsciousness: Very Common [30].
Immunity to Unconsciousness from Injury: Common [15].
Unconsciousness rolls below 0HP and Unconsciousness from stunning and knockdown rolls, and from some criticals.

Immunity to Unconsciousness from Unconsciousness rolls below 0HP: Occasional [10].
Many cinematic characters seem to have this, they never just lose consciousness for injury, but one good blow can still knock them out.

Re: Unsubduable
 

It isn't. Impossible to Subdue is way more powerful than Doesn't Sleep, particularly when you combine it with Unkillable.

Re: Unsubduable
 

Nice!
I like how you split up the immunities. *adds to extended advantage/disadvantage list*

Re: Unsubduable
 

Was it Sysiphus in Greek mythology who was condemned to push a boulder to the top of a hill for all eternity?

Re: Unsubduable
 

Whoops. How did I manage to muddle that one up in all these years?

The principle of extrapolating from an existing levelled advantage is sound, but 50 points still comes across as a bit too high a cost. It's certainly a very useful advantage, but it doesn't seem to be on the same level as Unkillable.

Guilty as charged.

Thanks for the link. The idea of dividing the advantage up by type and scope of unconsciousness is a nice one. It makes a 15-point version look a lot more viable, since its holder would still be vulnerable to fatigue, knockout gas, etc.

Being able to stay awake forever wouldn't necessarily make someone immune to the other effects of sleep deprivation. They'd still be intensely fatigued and would likely be continuously hallucinating or worse after a fortnight at the most.


Thanks for the replies, everyone. Based on the discussion I'm going to play it safe and price Unsubduable at 30 points. That might turn out to be too much, but it's going to be used in a Supers game where the players can combine it with Unkillable. Better safe than sorry...

Re: Unsubduable
 

Doesn't sleep means that you do not sleep and you will not suffer the effects of sleep deprivation.
The advantage is made mostly for creatures/things such as self-powered robots, golems, zombies, and other, usually unliving, things.

Re: Unsubduable
 

Why no mention of Recovery? That looks like an obvious starting place to me.

Re: Unsubduable
 

Nice! Reduce it to take zero time, make it Reflexive if deemed necessary, and there you are, quite canonically too.

Re: Unsubduable
 

I don't think adding Reflexive to recovery will do anything. You could argue for Recovery being a leveled trait, with every 10 points dividing the time by 60, so you would need 3 levels or 30 points.

Re: Unsubduable
 

That doesn't feel right to me. It looks like the model for Reduced Consumption/Doesn't Eat or Drink might map better. If Recovery were placed in RC's pricing scheme, it would be at about level 2.5, suggesting that 20 points might be a fair cost.

EDIT: Actually, it would be about level 3.5, which would suggest a cost around 15 points... that does feel too low. RC always did look kind of strange the way the effect jumped around the linear price increase ;p

Re: Unsubduable
 

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make: Namely that simply being able to stay conscious with another advantage is no substitute for Doesn't Sleep.