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- - Unsubduable (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=42408)

Quote:

Originally Posted by younglorax

I'd call it 20 points.

Reason:
-Hard to Subdue is 2pts / level. For most characters, 8 levels of Hard to Subdue means that you're rolling against 18 to avoid falling unconcious. 18 is a nice number, for 3d6.

-Compare to Less Sleep and Doesn't Sleep. Less Sleep costs 2pts / level, and 8 levels of Less Sleep would mean you never have to sleep, if it were allowed. But instead, you're supposed to take Doesn't Sleep, which costs 20 points.

Seems equivalent enough to me.

It isn't. Impossible to Subdue is way more powerful than Doesn't Sleep, particularly when you combine it with Unkillable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Old Thread

Alternatively:
Unconsciousness is an "Affliction", Basic set page 428-429.
Immunity can protect you from “Afflictions” So:

Immunity to All Unconsciousness: Very Common [30].
Immunity to Unconsciousness from Injury: Common [15].
Unconsciousness rolls below 0HP and Unconsciousness from stunning and knockdown rolls.

Immunity to Unconsciousness from Unconsciousness rolls below 0HP: Occasional [10].
Many cinematic characters seem to have this, they never just lose consciousness for injury, but one good blow can still knock them out.

Nice!
I like how you split up the immunities. *adds to extended advantage/disadvantage list*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

...

Maybe one day I'll collect all the little troublesome bits like that and start a thread "4E Pet peeves" :/

Was it Sysiphus in Greek mythology who was condemned to push a boulder to the top of a hill for all eternity?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonSequitur

"No version of Cosmic bypasses the resistance roll against Affliction [...]. Despite its name, 'irresistible attack' simply negates protection such as DR and Mind Shield." (GURPS Powers page 101)

Whoops. How did I manage to muddle that one up in all these years?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonSequitur

I'm working by analogy from the notion that Affliction can't be irresistible, but you can just as easily make the point that "Unsubduable" is to "Hard to Subdue" as "Unkillable" is to "Hard to Kill." Unkillable 1 costs 50 points, which works out to 25 levels of Hard to Kill. By the same token, Unsubduable would cost the same as 25 levels of hard to subdue - 50 points. I think "Unsubduable" compares more readily to Unkillable 1 because, as is the case with Unkillable 1, the character can still be neutralised given enough damage - destruction of the body, with Unkillable 1, and actually killing him, with Unsubduable.

EDIT: But as David Jonston said, Unkillable doesn't really compare since it protects the character from the permanent effects of death, not from being taken out of combat.

The principle of extrapolating from an existing levelled advantage is sound, but 50 points still comes across as a bit too high a cost. It's certainly a very useful advantage, but it doesn't seem to be on the same level as Unkillable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

*shrug* Blame the authors for deciding to name the stupid enhancement "Irresistible Attack". Unfortunately, there are many people in this world who don't bother reading the actual description of something and just judge it by its name alone.

Guilty as charged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

EDIT in bold and underlined: Alternatively:
Unconsciousness is an "Affliction", Basic set page 428-429.
Immunity can protect you from “Afflictions” So:

Immunity to All Unconsciousness: Very Common [30].
Immunity to Unconsciousness from Injury: Common [15].
Unconsciousness rolls below 0HP and Unconsciousness from stunning and knockdown rolls, and from some criticals.

Immunity to Unconsciousness from Unconsciousness rolls below 0HP: Occasional [10].
Many cinematic characters seem to have this, they never just lose consciousness for injury, but one good blow can still knock them out.

Thanks for the link. The idea of dividing the advantage up by type and scope of unconsciousness is a nice one. It makes a 15-point version look a lot more viable, since its holder would still be vulnerable to fatigue, knockout gas, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It isn't. Impossible to Subdue is way more powerful than Doesn't Sleep, particularly when you combine it with Unkillable.

Being able to stay awake forever wouldn't necessarily make someone immune to the other effects of sleep deprivation. They'd still be intensely fatigued and would likely be continuously hallucinating or worse after a fortnight at the most.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Based on the discussion I'm going to play it safe and price Unsubduable at 30 points. That might turn out to be too much, but it's going to be used in a Supers game where the players can combine it with Unkillable. Better safe than sorry...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelsan

Doesn't sleep means that you do not sleep and you will not suffer the effects of sleep deprivation.
The advantage is made mostly for creatures/things such as self-powered robots, golems, zombies, and other, usually unliving, things.

Why no mention of Recovery? That looks like an obvious starting place to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Why no mention of Recovery? That looks like an obvious starting place to me.

Nice! Reduce it to take zero time, make it Reflexive if deemed necessary, and there you are, quite canonically too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Nice! Reduce it to take zero time, make it Reflexive if deemed necessary, and there you are, quite canonically too.

I don't think adding Reflexive to recovery will do anything. You could argue for Recovery being a leveled trait, with every 10 points dividing the time by 60, so you would need 3 levels or 30 points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

You could argue for Recovery being a leveled trait, with every 10 points dividing the time by 60, so you would need 3 levels or 30 points.

That doesn't feel right to me. It looks like the model for Reduced Consumption/Doesn't Eat or Drink might map better. If Recovery were placed in RC's pricing scheme, it would be at about level 2.5, suggesting that 20 points might be a fair cost.

EDIT: Actually, it would be about level 3.5, which would suggest a cost around 15 points... that does feel too low. RC always did look kind of strange the way the effect jumped around the linear price increase ;p

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make: Namely that simply being able to stay conscious with another advantage is no substitute for Doesn't Sleep.