Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Greetings, all!

I noticed that whenever I postulated a situation when two factions had the same total TL, but achieved it through different/divergent paths, somebody would jump in and say that in five years faction A will have all tech from faction B and vice-versa. Now, for some reason nobody says that when two factions with different TLs, but belonging to the same path, meet or even interact for a long time.

What's this big problem with keeping the tech paths distinct? I see lots of examples - Tau, Kroot and Vespid, Terrans and Protoss, the 'races' of EVE Online, Warcraft etc. Yet whenever I mention it for an RPG setting, somebody jump up in protest.

Thanks is advance to all who answer!

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Actually raising a TL requires resources. However, two divergent TLs are going to borrow rapidly from each other if they are in contact, or especially, competition with each other. They might differ in what specific items of technology they use based on:

- historical reliance
- available materials and natural resources
- wealth
- moral or philosophic qualms
- the pressures of social stability

but clearly, two TLs can not long remain divergent, only specialized. For an example, look at the introduction of Western handguns and armor-making techniques into Japan, or the interchange and rivalry between Japanese and American auto makers in the 1970s.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

I think the relationship between Europe and the Middle East is a nice example of two societies with different TL's (at least partially) that were in contact for hundreds of years - anyhow Europa didn't adopt the advanced medicine for some time.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Because of moral prohibitions and social pressures. The Europe and Middle East are a good example of how TLs naturally converge, actually. Chainmail went east while scimitars traveled west and became sabers. Alternative approaches to music and mathematics combined and formed a robust form, which gave Europe the minor key and Spanish quitar.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Actually, there are almost no examples of tech divergence on earth. The things you quote are probably no more than one TL of divergence. (In fact, I never heard of Chinese or Arabic medicine to be labelled TLx+y in GURPS.)

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

I have seen this done quite well in fiction several times. Most notably:

The Schismatrix
The Reality Dysfunction

In both cases, social pressures labeled some types of technology as "acceptable" and "unacceptable" for various groups.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Well firstly, divergent tech species have something to trade with each other. Suppose that we were to encounter a TL 5+3 species from a parallel universe, one that had for example never discovered gunpowder or the internal combustion engine but were instead using lasers and electric cars. You better believe we'd be eager to exchange knowledge with them. If we encounter the TL 5 guys down the road...not so much. We've already got everything they have, so they'd have to trade raw materials, and probably at not very advantageous terms.

Quite apart from that, it's just plain easier. Someone who knows about simple bows will readily grasp the principle of spear throwers and vice versa. Spear thrower guy won't have nearly so easy a time copying the technological advancements involved in making a compound bow much that involved in a firearm.

That being said how can we have different cultures have divergent technology over the long term?

For a start we can have them be so mutually hostile that that only thing they exchange are attacks. While they can learn a bit from looting the wrecks and corpses a total lack of commercial and intellectual interchange is going to ensure that the Terrans will not catch up with the Enemy in the arts and sciences they excell in. It helps if the two cultures are both Hidebound.

Alternatively, you can get a certain amount of joy out of changing the ground conditions. The internal combustion engine is dependant on our world having loads of petroleum. If we were from a world that didn't have those readily extracted high-energy liquid hydrocarbon, the internal combustion engine simply wouldn't have been worth the bother to develop or copy if we had a nearly as good electric or steam engine. If the 5+3 guys above base their technology on happening to have a room temperature superconductor lying around for the mining and they won't sell it to us, or it only works because they are all Electrokinetics, we're SOL when it comes to copying their gizmos.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

I would assume that if the tech paths are significantly divergent (Terrans and Protoss), that the difference would be so great, it would be difficult for them to overlap.

For instance, if we develop computers in the method we have been for another 500 years, and then we encounter a civilization that uses Biology (or Magic in a Fantasy game) based computers, wouldn't the differences be so drastic that you would have to start learning the other from scratch?

This could be used as a TL difference, but only in technological cultures drastically different than your own.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Not as long we know biology. We could not use our TL 11 computer knowledge to make sense out of of their TL 11 biological computers, but we could use our TL 11 biological knowledge to start to make sense out of it. Now it could be that we have slashed technology. We have TL 11 electronics but we're only TL 8 in biology, while they are TL 11 in biology and don't know diddly about electronics.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Fair example. Remnded me of West of Eden, BTW. Divergent indeed, to the point of inventing writing much later than inventing biotools.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

But if our TL 11 electronic computers are about as good as their TL 11 biocomputers, why would we bother?

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

I dunno. Maybe for certain purposes it would be better to have an EMP-immune computer than one who can't get encephalitis.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

First of all, there is going to be a lot of high energy hydrocarbons lying around, assuming the culture is, like us, carbon-based.

Second, we did have electric and steam engines as good as internal combustion engines. The internal combustion engine won, essentially, because oil refining was producing a lot of useless, highly flammable byproduct called "gasoline." Nonetheless, we've ended up with electric trains and electric/diesel trains, none of which are really petroleum dependent. Cars are a special case where we have a 70 year old infrastructure in place based on gasoline. But you don't have to google for five minutes to learn that electric hybrids are just as efficient, and they would be even better if they had economies of scale working in their favor and another decade or two of concerted development. In fact, we had several electric passenger cars poised to take off just a few years ago, but all were killed by their creators, notably GM's electric car.

So the gasoline engine isn't really the result of starting conditions so much as a virtual oligopoly which has only recently begun to weaken.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

[QUOTE=pawsplay]But it doesn't have to be liquid. Wood and coal do not work in internal combustion egines.

Hybrids are still fundamentally IC engines. They just use electricity to stretch out the fuel consumption. And the presence of all that petroleum is the starting condition that led to the oligopoly.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Wood and coal can be used to produce fuels that do. But yeah, I think an organic ecosystem does necessisitate a lot of liquid oil. Maybe in some exotic circumstances it wouldn't happen, but I think most of the time, hydrocarbons + compression = liquified hydrocarbons.

It's a starting starting condition, not the. I would be very cautious about asserting a causality there. You can't rule out the special place of Henry Ford in history, nor the happenstance that patent medicines using oil was affecting an industry that refined oil for more uses than lubricant or lamp fuel. Or the presence of an oil boom in America. Without an immediate surplus of gasoline at that specific time, and Ford and others ready to step in, it could easily have fizzled.

It's ultimately very similar to VHS versus Beta... betas were a better technology, but the circumstances weren't right. At the time Ford built his model T, probably more of the better models were steam or electric than IC.

The argument you are making is similar to claiming that without corn there would be no ethanol market. The fact that we have a supply of corn ethanol is happenstance, in fact, using corn ethanol under the current conditions is ultimately an energy loser. But it's a fuel of convenience at this time.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Well, what I'm trying to figure out is, why does this always happens in home-made settings, but not in official ones. Tau, Kroot and Vespid tech is different. Warcraft dwarven, human and night-elven tech is different. Star Wars have rather bio-tech traders who sell clones - while everybody else can't even grow a replacement arm. The four races of EVE Online have different tech, even though they are not in a state of perpetual war. Star Control's races all have divergent tech, even though the Ur-Quan control the Heirarchy, and the Alliance is all about mutual help. The examples are everywhere. What's okay about them that I fail to make okay with all of my ideas?

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Well no. They aren't everywhere. They're mostly in videogames where people are less interested in living in the world than they are in shooting the bad guys. Even then, there's no particular indication that the species in Star Control for example actually have divergent technology as opposed to simply a situation where Shofixti simply like flying around in one-raccoon flying bombs while Syreen find their "ribbed for your pleasure" ships most suitable for the use of their superpower. Note that the Star Wars clone arrangers are not an example of divergent tech but of more advanced tech. Most of their tech is functionally like anywhere else in the galaxy. They're just a bit advanced in the biology stuff. And given how fast technology advances in the Star Wars Galaxy, being slightly advanced converts into a centuries-wide edge in technological advancement.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Actually, there are cases where a race would benefit from using another's tech. Yehat's shields are definitely a good replacement for Earthling PD lasers, and Utwig's shields are even better. The Arilou Skiff, which was a ship with one of the best drives in SC1, could've probably benefitted from Pkunk's technologies in SC2. Androsynth Guardians are just better, bang for buck, then Earthling Cruisers, and I'm sure geeks remember that Androsynth are actually an earthling bioroid offshot. The Suppox would've been better off taking any special technology instead of their silly manoeuvre drive.
Well, maybe you're right.

But other examples are probably even more stable. WH40K, ranted as it may be, is backed up by large amount of fluff/novels, which supports the opinions that it's not just another shoot-em-up. EVE Online is considered a rather RP-ish game. Warcraft is an RPG too.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

My reading of the Star Wars universe is that any TL 10+ technologies need a sizeable percentage of an entire planetary economy to maintain. The clone production centers, the great shipyards, the Geonosian involvement in the Death Star all suggest hundreds of trillions of $ in operating costs every year.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

It really depends on just how divergent the TLs are. Two different TL9+1 civilizations will likely readily borrow from each other and equalise in no time. A TL10 civilization will find it much harder to adapt TL5+5 technology to it. Most advanced technology doesn't exist in isolation; if you have a TL9+1 computer, it relies on TL9 technology to function, and a TL10 civilisation can pretty readily reproduce the innovations of that single divergent tech level. If you have a TL5+5 computer, though, then that's orders of magnitude harder, since they would have to copy TL5+1 infrastructure to even get started! So if the TLs are very divergent, it may simply not be worth it to try and conciliate the two different forms of technology, although any innovations that are truly portable would be traded between civilisations, if at all possible and if there was a market for it, even if only one of those groups can actually manufacture or maintain them.

Also, often divergent tech works because of something inherent to the make-up of the species involved. In the Starcraft universe, humans are roughly TL10 (Or TL9, maybe) while Protoss are TL4+6 (Psi-tech) and Zerg are TL0+10 (Bio-tech). Humans are very limited in what they can take from Protoss or Zerg because Protoss technology only works for the psionic Protoss, and Zerg "technology" only works for the "metagenic" Zerg.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Er, this is because you're comparing apples to oranges.

Apples: Comics and novels written and completely controlled by a single author who can simply decree that tech crossover is difficult or impossible; his characters can't protest at all, while his readers can only protest after the book is a done deal. Movies and television shows where, again, a single person or a small oligarchy -- the director and writer(s), but not the viewers, much less the fictional characters -- can handle technology by fiat. Computer games where the rules for tech are hard-coded in such a way that no mechanism for scientific or engineering research even exists, and where "crafting" and "innovation," such as they are, can't develop anything that isn't already allowed by the code.

Oranges: Tabletop RPGs where the players and GM are collectively telling a story in real time and negotiating what's possible as they go. The characters can, in effect, protest things that the audience -- in this case, the players -- find difficult to accept, like wholly isolated tech paths. Many RPGs actively support invention and research, and thus it's possible for the players to try to combine tech paths even if the GM isn't keen on it. And the social pressure of losing one's players may cause the GM to relent and allow this to work.

As I've said over and over and over again, books, comics, computer games, movies, TV shows, and most other media are craptastic models for tabletop RPGs. Tabletop RPGs have a level of interactivity, flexibility, social interaction, and shared responsibility that all of these other media lack. What works by fiat in those other media will only work in your tabletop RPG if the players agree to go along with it. If they don't, and they protest your decrees, you're usually out of luck. Your options become "change the setting" or "lose your players." Thus, you can't artificially firewall tech trees from one another if that makes your players jump up in protest.

As to why players might protest, that's pretty simple: reality. There are no good examples of divergent tech trees in reality because in reality, tech divergences are transitory foibles that either get absorbed into the big picture and thus cease to be divergent, or are discarded when something from the big picture proves more effective. Players who know this are going to object to entire cultures being religious about their neighbors' cultures having absolutely nothing worth borrowing and combining when combining diverse ideas to get something even better practically defines real-world technological evolution.

You can posit that the reason isn't cultural but actual physical incompatibilities, but reality will still get in the way. The players will object on the grounds that reality has only one set of physical laws. Even if you hammer home that the game isn't reality, fiction will trip you up again: most popular fiction with multiple sets of physical laws features at least one cool character -- the one the players will inevitably view as the best PC archetype -- who somehow gets to benefit from several "incompatible" technologies at once.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Because of the potential for figuring out how to combine the two techs to get TL11+x computers. (or TLx+11 in the case of the guys with the biotech)

If my civ's TL8, it isn't to advantage to share my technology with your puny TL6 civ... If I'm TL 3+5, however, if I share a couple of those pluses with you guys in exchange for, say, the secrets of the steam engine, I can potentially combine my tech with your tech to get TL4+5 (eventually), while you wind up with TL6+1 in exchange (again, eventually). Which is in both our interests... But mine more than yours since I've just found a civ with a different TL2+4 and exchange some of my tech with theirs to get them to TL2+4+1 and wind up with TL4+5+1 myself.

...Now, if only I could figure out how to interface this squish drive with my USB port...

You're never going to combine TL8 with TL0+8 to get TL8+8, of course... But you might be able to incorporate enough principles to advance your tech level in an area it didn't have anything before.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Most importantly, whether you have 5+5 or 9+1, as soon as two neighbors advance to TL 11, you can be sure they will cease to be divergent, although each will have their own areas of specialty. The number of plusses is largely irrelevant; incorporating a robust new field of technology is, in my mind, never more than one + away.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Think it's not absolutely true just because there's a large tehnological abyss between them. I think nobody here can more or less closely imagine for example 3+5 magical TL.

And if tomorrow humanity will face mage race it would be hard to cease diverging. If we even presume that humans actually can make magical items it will take up years to learn theirs magical principals and they will understand our applied math, physics, chemistry, biology and others for comparable periods of time. All this time both cultures will avoid conflicts and have willing to assist each other. We must presume that there are no conflicts out of cultural differences, paranoia of military forces and such factors. IMHO this is real in single technological aspects and nearly impossible in general.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Mostly because it's something that just plain doesn't exist. If "magic" existed in such a form that it was perceptible at TL 3, then it's pretty implausible that we would make no use of it unless, once again they had some kind of resource that we do not such as mana, or people with magic aptitude.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

I'm not so sure, largely because of the problem of choice of zero. Let's start with 3 TL3 civilizations. Civilization A invents high sorcery and advances 3 TLs, but since this is our chosen zero, lets call this TL6. Civlilization B doesn't invent sorcery, but discovers gunpowder instead, advancing 3 TLs to TL 3+3. Civilization C doesn't discover either of those, but invents printing, which B missed too because its ideographic script would require thousands of types, and advances 3 (different for the lack of personal firearms) TLs to TL3+3. Civilizations B and C meet. By the logic as upthread, they are too divergent to exchange technlogies easily - even though we know for a certainty this combination (3 TLs of advance over TL3 including gunpowder and printing) involves no fundamental incompatibilities, and can be "combined" in a generation - from example of developing nations that jumped from TL3 to 6 in about that time when exposed to these (in our model two separate) new tech paths.

And once they do combine, what the TL of the B-C League anyway? Well given our choice of zero, it's still divergant, and it's still achieving about the same things as A, so it's still TL 3+3, just like before, despite the possibly major changes caused by the tech transfer. By the same logic, should A acquire the technology of the B-C league, well it's new TL has similar capabilities as before, so its now TL 3+3 too, um except it still has its original stuff, so 6+0, where this is not the same as TL6, or, um, well it *can* do some stuff it couldn't before, so maybe 6+1, except it's a TL6+1 with net capabilities distinctly inferior to the TL7 it's 3 decade time advanced alternate world version over there has, or....

Numerical TLs, no matter how you implement them, simply don't mean a lot, as should be obvious from their vagueness even for historical Earth. Which is why any setting that matters ends up describing the available technlogy in quite a few paragraphs rather than a number or two. Trying to decide on the basis of a number or two to what extent divergent technologies can combine and what difference it would make is not going to work well.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

That's not a very fair set of examples. You're describing civilizations with split TLs (completely fair topic on their own, but somewhat different from divergent TLs). Divergent TLs are based on wildly different approaches to tech. E.g.: Zerg/Protoss/Terran trio; some of the examples from Waagh 40K; West of Eden lizard race (probably one of the best examples, and one rather distant from military secrets, thankfully).

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Right in point, David Johnson2. And if tomorrow race of magic-related "tech"-level will appear from nowhere we will not be ready for it even if theirs knowledge will be physically suitable for our race. Just because it's something that doesn't exist in our civilization and we *think* it dosn't exist at all.

My apologies. I really begin to draw a conclusion without thinking about what exactly is TL. Well, now I'll try to use more accurate definitions: in my previous post I assumed that different TL is some set of knowledge, skills and items inventing which relies on principes that are different from our civilization's (such as magic and technology) and some missing inventions (such as B-C pair) are issues of existing TL, not alternative ones. I have no answer how to count TL of an A-B-C union.

After all it doesn't resolve problems that A civilization will ocure during "technological" (I'm not sure this is a proper word but have no more accurate one) fusion with B-C union.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

[QUOTE=Manul]And why do we think that?

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

But we can certainly imagine 3+4, which was my point, more or less.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Because we've never seen it in action? Lots of people never seen god, but they believe in one; nobody's seen atoms in ancient Greece, yet they existed. One cannot prove the absence of that which one cannot perceive, but one can prove the presence of something one can perceive.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Well, can you? You'll either produce something closer to a split TL, or you will produce an idea of a divergent civilization, but one that any random person would consider a fairytale or something like that.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

[QUOTE=Molokh]But why haven't we seen it in action when those guys over there saw it in action when they were TL 3? We live in the same universe under the same laws right? Why couldn't we see what they saw when they saw it while limited pretty much to the Mark 1 eyeball as a method of perception. We can say "Well they have a superpower we don't"...but note in that case that while we will have trouble figuring out their technology, they'll have no trouble at all figuring out ours because they are the guys with the superpower and we aren't.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

As an example, the type of resources available in the centers of civilization was different, so they went along a different path, and tech was spreading from centers to the rim. Or they have radically different thinking. Or perhaps they approached a problem from a different direction (an aquatic species and a terrestial one, when they meet in space, will have wildly different approaches to the issue of space flight).

Or, if we talk about magic, how about a world which has more magical problems than us. If humanity faced, say, magical plagues (which can be only diagnosed by analyzing counter-intuitive, obscure, minor phenomena which we currently consider mere superstition), it would probably be more inclined to explore those issues.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Do you mean Technomancer? I don't know how officialy named tech in this setting (and have no book to consult with) but IMHO it's not 3+4TL, just TL7 with magic inserted and not really nessesary because it can be more or less painless replaced by common technology. I meant setting where computers are useless because there are no tasks they need to solve, setting where hamster camicadze don't guide a missile because missile is not a 3 TL invention and simply doesn't exist (please don't resend me to Chinesse rockets, it's quite different).

And you think we know all basic knowledges about our world? "Greece fire" feared all the Medieval during 4 centuries. Modern scientists say that they can create mixture with properties of "greece fire" but can't even imagine how such a mixture could be created in such low tech.

And by the way: it get 400 years to Arabs to steal this tech. And it isn't a divergent TL, only one invention. Same with silk and porcelaine.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

[QUOTE=Molokh]


If they _really_ have radically different thinking then obviously we'll never understand their language and that will limit our ability to learn or steal from them.

No, they won't. Space is space. An aquatic and a terrestrial species may have different perspectives, but there's no reason why the principles their vessels operate under will be fundamentally incomprehensible to each other because the problems and solutions to moving in space are fundamentally the same for both species. Newton and Einstein's principles are not a matter of perspective. They're how things actually work within given parameters.


If magic is sufficiently pervasive and efficacious that it can be used as the foundation for entire divergent tech levels there is no way that we could just not notice that it existed.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

No, not Technomancer. Imagine a society where electrical knowledge takes off (basic knowledge of currents and ions appears at TL 2 in societies that have chemistry/alchemy). So by TL 4, you have electromagnetism replacing steam and black powder; explosives are used for mining and steam is used mainly to generate current. Let's also posit a slightly different theory of disease; instead of "humors," let's imagine that theories of "demonets" become a comprehensive theory of micororganisms, but before we have advanced microscope technology. Contagion becomes a big concern, but the idea of convalescing doesn't catch on for a while. We jump forward 500 years...

Infantry use small rail guns as well as powerful magnetic stunners. Cars are replaced by modular rail systems. The first atom bomb was created using energy plasma contained in a magnetic field. Various neurological diseases including MS have been cured through a combination of electrochemistry and magnetic imaging, but the treatment of cardiac failure is in its infancy. Laptops are cool and portable, but they use quantum-based magnetic drives for everything, the laser and consequently the CD having been left behind. Prosthetic limbs are electromagnetic. Demand for gold, copper, and platinum is insatiable. For lower energy applications, microships are produced in staggering quantities. DNA and RNA have been well-mapped, but the mechanism of protein production has lagged, and they have no recombinant DNA technologies; on the other hand, they can assemble simple enzymes and proteins from scratch using tiny generators and raw elements. Intercontinental travel is sometimes achieved by being hurled over the ocean in the grip of a magnetic field while safely contained within a wire-lined capsule. It's 2008, and Tesla's notion of a "force field" is being explored.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Different physiology (they see mana while we see light), different resources (they're from an area/planet rich in minerals that allow the manipulation of mana while we have none of that sort of mineral), different environment (they're from a high mana region/planet while we're in a low or no mana one.)

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Let's take a hard look at Starcraft to show how and -why- the technologies are divergent.*

*The real reason, of course, is that it's an RTS and they want to make the races as different as possible for a fun game. Now back to your regularly-scheduled analysis...

Terran technology is evolved along the human path descended from the usual technology.

Zerg "technology" is not going to be adapted by Terrans or 'toss aaaany time soon. The Zerg are a hive mind (either the Overmind or the Cerebrates) who evolve the bodies of their Zerg rather than develop technology. Similarly, actually using the Terrans' technology is beyond them.

Meanwhile, Protoss technology is psionic-based. Terrans, with the possible exception of a very few Ghosts, simply don't have the mojo to use psi blades. The Zerg sure as hell don't have anything below the Cerebrate level with the right kind of psi for it. Now, the Protoss -could- probably work out Terran technology, but as a whole, their society is based on psi-tech and the extremely centralized and specialized Khalai-caste labor used to construct it. On a society-wide level, there are too many barriers to cross-pollination...a big one being "why bother? Our technology is superior to the Terrans'!" (And, generally, it is. You won't see a member of the Templars pick up a Marine's rifle, because -a- Zealot is simply better as well as more honorable.)

Sure, there are some cases that break the rules. Kerrigan and Duran are Zerg who are capable of using Terran and Protoss technology, but they're not, as a rule, evolving it into the Zerg or spending much time on it because they have better things to do. Raynor's Raiders have Terrans and Protoss working together. But as a whole, there's good reasons (at least at gamestart) why the three tech trees are staying highly divergent.

(And if the PCs want to, as a plot, start merging the Terran and Protoss societies...well, that's a campaign for you. PCs have a license and a right to break the setting at will.)

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

The point I'm trying to get at here is that from the standpoint of a third party observer, there is nothing to distinguish between civilizations B and C, each of which have a different subset of the technologies of homeline, and civilization A, which has yet a third (smaller) subset of the technologies of homeline plus something homeline does not have at all.

It's just as valid to call the hypothetical union of A, B and C, the the standard, and say that all three of them, and Homeline's TL6 as well, all have the Union TL6, retarded in a different areas, and that for any of them to acquire the missing piece is simply a case of buying off their retardation in that particular area. It's a change of perspective that makes the concepts of this or that technology being too divergent to compensate for, or any view of the buyoff process as asymmetrical between any pair of them, look much less reasonable.

Choice of zero issues like that come up a lot in alternate worlds situations. My personal favorite is the sometimes question "Why are so many alternate worlds variations of the history of Homeline". Possible answer: "They aren't, they're all really variations of the history of Bonaparte-4, and the most important date in history must have been 1798, cause there sure are a lot worlds that diverge with Napoleon not invading Ireland".

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Remember that the Basic Set points out realistic societies tend to have a range of TLs not only between categories but within them as well.

Take a look at the US power grid for example; it is a mostly TL6 system with a few TL7 and TL8 improvements added on in places. There are a few things in Medicine that still use TL6 or even TL5 methods and so on.

Even fantasy worlds have this range if you know how to look at them and this range will apply to divergent TL as well. Take the Space 1889 setting where you have TL5, TL5^, TL6, TL6^, TL(5+1), TL(5+1)^, and the occasional TL(5+2)/(6+1) and TL(5+2)^/(6+1)^ gizmo all mixed together.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Sure we can image magical TL(3+5); the AD&D setting Spelljammer used Transportation TL(3+5) to move between planets. Now imagining an entire society at magical TL(3+5) is doable but if it was anything realistic the TL would be a range perhaps TL(3+3) to TL(3+5) with some TL^ throw in for good measure.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

[QUOTE=Manul]
Technomancer (Merlin-1) is given TL(7+1). Azoth-7 (IW112) at TL(4+2), Azoth-1 at TL(4+3) (IW113), Azoth-5 (IW113) at TL(3+4), Lucifer-5 with TL6 and power and aerospace at TL6^ (IW132-3), Merlin-2 at TL8, Merlin-3 at TL6 (IW133-4), Nostradamus with a mixture of TL4 and TL8 thanks to
Reich-5 (IW138), Sherlock-2 at TL6^ which has Van Helsing (and one would
assume Vampires) running around (IW137), and Wyvern with its spell throwing
dragons and TL6 (IW142, Dragons 107-123).

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Malloyd, you seem to have a good point. However, it points out another 'choice of zero': the default 'width' of a TL. And yes, it is very humanocentric: we assume that OUR TLs are of the default 'width', and thus any 'narrower' TL is retarded in several fields. And, as stated everywhere, we consider TLs that are retarded in some fields, but ALSO have inventions we never had to compensate, to be Divergent. So far so good. But what about a civilization that has all the homeline stuff AND divergent stuff. Well, they will look like a very advanced civilization. Not because of higher overall TL - they don't have that - but because they have higher TLs than we do in fields we didn't consider.

This 'Divergent TLs are Split TLs too' PoV actually makes maintaining divergence easier. Why? Because it makes sure that the hypothetical reverse-engineer suffers BOTH the Divergent penalty of -2, AND the standard penalty for working with a higher TL. The only problem with this approach is that it makes pricing different divergent TLs difficult, because some are wider and some are narrower than homeline TLs.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Not especially. Take "Batman TAS". It has some divergent tech, like the police dirigibles. It does not look very advanced. It just looks weird. But note that unless divergent tech can find a distinct niche for itself, it will be displaced in short order.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Well, some stuff is indeed not cool enough to stay. I'll try to bring examples that are more impressive, and try to make it so that they become even more interesting when combined with homeline tech.

Fully ablative DR - a suit with x5 DR, but ablative - is great at TL3+1 for charging into lines of musket gunmen. Tesla's TL5+1 power-sending tech (IW-Gernsback, IIRC) is great for us even today. Some of the TLx+y vehicles from GURPS Fantasy could be a huge advantage in homeline warfare. A TL0+6 Aquatic civilization's intentions would be very useful for human TL6 marine industry. Even TL8 nukes would be an impressive addition to the TL3+7 Protoss force (assuming they in on and USE them).

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Tesla's power-sending tech is superscience plain and simple. They just hadn't made the distinction yet.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

While this seems true given our (modern) understanding of how electricity works, it doesn't make a difference: it's still some piece of tech that homeline doesn't have, and would benefit from. Their effect FOR A GAMING WORLD is the same as that from non-superscience intentions. (And despite a good definition, the line between divergent tech and superscience is blurry, because we've already been through ages when something was CONSIDERED superscience, such as heavier-than-air powered manned flight, supersonic movement of living humans, or synthesis of organic chemicals. But now I'm rambling.)

Oh, and the other examples still stand.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

[QUOTE=Molokh]But what it isn't, is divergent technology. We have no equivalent of it.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

From a setting-level PoV, it IS nothing more than divergent. The ^ defines whether the tech breaks any laws of nature AS WE KNOW them. Or do you think that the average Trekkie Engineer will start exchanging technologies by explaining that it is superscience? Superscience is a GM-LEVEL concept.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

No, it's actually more advanced. We can't do that by other means. We can't do that at all. It's not the same thing as a car with a compact highly efficient steam motor that is the equivalent of our IC engine or a world that has legged vehicles instead of any vehicles with wheels

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Last I remember, the High TL advantage did not include any enhancements for having access to superscience. In fact, if it were more advanced, techbooks would've assigned this stuff to a higher TL, but the 4e change of approach was to assign impossible stuff to the TL^ based on usefulness, not on the expectation that it will stop being ^ on a higher TL.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Which explains why Broadcast Power is TL 10^ in Ultratech. Of course there could be machines that run off it which are only TL 5+2 on Gernsback.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

Actually, low-efficiency broadcast power is currently available, and people are working on making it more efficient. There's even been a thread dedicated to it not very long ago.

But we're picking nits instead of addressing the whole issue with all the examples etc.

Re: Problems and Solutions of keeping Divergent TL paths Divergent?
 

BTW, Fantasy takes a selection of weird stuff and assigns TLs, and notice that they're all listed as TL(x+y), not TLx^:And the TL of elves in Paradise (again, GURPS Fantasy) is also Divergent, not Superscience.