old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Lately I have got into issue with my players. Here is an example.

Default car riding

Nearly every country has driving licence and to get it you need to pass training and exams. But who gets default for driving?

A/ Only someone who actualy did the training

B/ Everyone from our tech level

In B is valid how do you rate those who did the training but don't drive? Is it the same? (If yes, in what case?)

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I would think if you have received any training in driving, you would have the Driving skill at some level.

Edit: Sorry, what I mean is, everyone can drive at the default, but if anyone has received any training at all, they would have the skill at some level.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Hidden option C: anyone who has enough experience of seeing driving and drivers to have a reasonable chance of making a car go. In the modern world, that's probably most people (who have seen lots of car driving on TV and movies, have ridden in cars and seen what drivers do, have heard drivers talking about driving, etc.), though some people may have led sufficiently sheltered lives that they need the training to fill in enough gaps in their knowledge to allow them a default roll. For those people who already have Driving at default, a minimum of formal training is unlikely to improve their skill measurably within the GURPS system.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I'd agree with C.

If you've driven before then you can take situational modifiers like the +4 for routine tasks.

If you've just seen people driving on TV then you should just get plain default, since almost everything is trial and error.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I'll agree with C as well.

I think it's Basic Set: Characters that, when referring to defaults, mentions that a person who had any experience with SCUBA equipment, even seeing it on TV, would get a default, but a knight from the 17th century seeing it would have no default for it at all.

This would work the same way with cars, I assume.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I agree with option C.

I'd say that anyone gets a default who has seen cars much (most everyone living at TL8), and the ones who've been trained get the +4 for routine task.


For example, I have a driver's license in the United States, but I'm not sure I have a single point in Driving (I think in the real world 1/2 pts are probably allowed, though, and I've probably got that).

I just use the default at +4 (probably with some other minor bonuses for following speed limits and stuff, and again, I think at this point I've got a half point in it).


ETA: I might suggest giving anyone who's completed Driver's Ed a +1 or so to their default.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Do you remember where rutine task +4 modifier comes from? So I may add it to my list.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

B171, last paragraph of the middle column.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Note "Routine task": When it is snowing, little Jack is trying to beat little Molly to death with a talking Tickle-Me-Elmo in the back seat, and it's coming on night, the +4 goes right out the window.

This explains why apparently everyone forgets how to drive on the day of the first snowfall, causing hundreds of accidents in our city (mostly minor, but still - people, it happens EVERY YEAR).

Of course, four weeks later a little snow might prompt a spike of only 50 accidents - because after four weeks, for most people driving in the snow becomes a mostly routine task again. Or they've got rid of the familiarity penalty again and only have to deal with loosing their +4 :D

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Hmm, this will propably give me even more trouble. But thanks.

Just to follow the lead, would someone care to stat these situations? Like rutine task - familiarity penalty with (trouble some) avarage?

The situation is normal guy (or mommy) with two fighting "monsters" at back seat during first snow (or other unusual situation) + would extra effort count?

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Don't forget, the average driving situation requires no rolls at all, and that Driving also defaults to IQ. A lot of normal modern folks are going to be using the IQ default instead of the DX default as soon as they're old enough to have some sort of education, experience, and general non-dumbassery.

That said, for a person who is dead-normal across the board, I think operating a vehicle at Default of 5 is realistic. That gives them a 2:1 chance of failure (IE: Doing something a cop would pull you over for, or a "no harm, no foul" fender-bender) in any sort of stressful situation that requires a roll but still grants the +4 TDM, and about a 10% chance of pulling off a miracle in a real crisis without the TDM.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Is there a list of TDMs anywhere (in a book somewhere or on the forums)?

That'd be a right handy thing to have.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

The way I look at Driving and skill rolls:

The driver, alone in the car or with quiet passengers, no radio playing, no cellphone, focusing on driving, normal driving conditions (Dry road, good lighting, nobody actively trying to kill you) -- no skill check required.

The driver, with a distraction of some sort such as rowdy kids in the back seat, or talking on the cell phone while driving, but normal driving conditions -- skill check at +4 for routine operation.

The driver, with no distractions but less than ideal conditions - it's raining, it's dark out, the road is in bad shape, whatever -- make a skill check starting at +3 (for light rain or dust, dark road but otherwise good conditions) and possibly going down to -4 (torrential rain or blizzard conditions, in the dark, on a bad road). Note that Taking Extra Time (by driving slowly) is good for bonuses to help offset these penalties!

Distractions in bad conditions add further penalties onto the above - talking on a hands-free cellphone might be good for -1, juggling a handheld phone and a hot coffee is a -4 at best.

Failure on a Driving roll indicates something like missing your exit on the freeway, taking a wrong turn, a flat tire, stuck in a snowbank, or if failed by 5 or more a minor bumper-denter accident for less than $500 in damages or a point of damage from dumping hot coffee all over yourself. Mostly failed rolls result in delays and frayed nerves.
A critical failure may indicate getting a traffic ticket for driving through an intersection, or the possibility of a more severe accident - roll again to prevent disaster and turn it into just $500 or less in damages.


My Suggestion: if you're ever caught in a blizzard, at night, with little Jack and little Molly and the Tickle-Me-Elmo, yell at the kids to shut the heck up, throw Elmo out the window, and turn off your cellphone.


EDIT: Some cars may be good for a +1 or more Quality bonus on Driving checks for bad conditions. The Cadilacs with the heads-up night vision displays would remove Darkness as a concern, the cars with bumper-mounted radar, driver-wakeup systems, and drifting alarms would help combat driver fatigue (possibly giving the driver a second skill check if he fails the first one) and all the computers and such would be worth a +1 or more on the second, "avert utter disaster" roll.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Realistic?

Someone who bumps into other cars or is pulled over two times out of three when she faces a stressful situation in a car isn't an average driver. She's a menace who shouldn't be driving at all.

A friend of mine has had about six minor accidents over a year of driving and that's considered an insanely high amount, not the normal cost of doing business.

A fender-bender isn't a routine thing. It's either the result of freak unluckiness or it's due to a basic lack of competence. If someone has them regularly, that person is noticably a poor driver, not just a normal person. I've never had one in my years of driving and neither has anyone I'd consider a competent driver.

A normal person in a Western country probably spends a couple of hours a day in a car. Even someone with a short commute will often spend an average of an hour a day driving.

Are you going to tell me that during all this driving, people don't learn something?

Is a 16-year-old kid who has seen cars driven equally good at it as a 25-year-old with seven to eight years of experience driving a car?

I think the idea that 'normal people have Driving at default' is rather strange. I mean, if it were any other skill that's used that often, would we even hesitate to say that normal people have at least a point in it?

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

As a professional driver, I see a lot of people who are menaces that shouldn't be driving at all IMHO.

The normal commute doesn't challenge those people at all.

See my comments about not disregarding the IQ default. Insurance companies certainly don't.

It's an undying debate, yes.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

One, I'm curious about how your theoretical driver is suddenly a woman.

Two, failed driving rolls certainly don't lead to accidents or tickets, any more than a failed Broadsword roll results in stabbing yourself, a failed Writing roll results in accidentally insulting your target audience, or a failed Photography roll results in taking photographs of the inside of the lenscap (or breaking the camera). Disasters, like car accidents, should be reserved for critical failures, or at the very least for long strings of regular failures.

I've worked tech support. The vast majority of people don't have a point in Computer Operation, have no desire to have a point in Computer Operation, and actively resist your every effort to train them until they have a point in Computer Operation. I've given lessons to people who go deliberately, actively, and maliciously deaf when you try to explain anything to them. They just want their emails and their funny cat pictures and youtube videos, and the rest of it can go hang.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I'd say most drivers on the road have a point or two in Driving.

I've only had a driver's license for 4 years, and I've always lived in areas with public transit, hence my not yet having a point in Driving. (It's also possible that I've got Incompetence, given my driving record :P.)

Assuming you get normal "learning on the job" points for driving, then if someone has an hour-long commute each way, five days a week 50 weeks a year, they should get about a point every year and a half or so.

At some point it'll stop increasing because they're not doing anything different enough that they're actually learning from their experience -- or maybe they'll start improving the Technique/E "Driving from my house to work and back".


EDIT: Okay, but Bruno makes a good point. Maybe most people don't have a point in Driving. *Shrug*

I assumed it was because we kept talking about a "mommy".

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Most people drive at default...

The fact that the road is typically flat, clear and wide (those who've driven in Europe know what I mean) and that the other drivers are not trying to harm the drivers gives a bonus to the roll and this translate to a good default.

You see minor failures on the road all the time: The guy that's riding with a wheel on the shoulder, the guys spilling his coffee during a turn; the guy that leaves on the turn signal for 40 miles; that guy breaking for no appear ant reason (in that case you may have missed a perception roll); wrong turns; turning when the signal clearly states that you are not allowed, over/under speeding; backing up in a garbage can, a curb or "...eek" another car... Even having to break strongly last minute means that someone somewhere missed their driving skill validation.

The driver's ed course is just enough to remove an additional unfamiliarity penalty.

Most of the time there are no rolls required, you may even have time to play license plate poker.

EtVous

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

The only person I can think of who regularly failes during routine driving is a girl I know.

Failed driving rolls probably don't lead to dangerous accidents, but they probably lead to some consequences. After all, if you're in a metal box travelling at sixty miles per hour and you fail at controlling it, it's probably going to have some consequences you don't like.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

It's still a minority of drivers. We just notice the bad drivers more.

If we put a kid who's never driven a car behind the wheel for a daily commute, it's gonna feel pretty challenging for the kid.

Same goes for the first few months of any new thing. I'd say it's only after the mechanical operation of the car becomes routine that the commute can truly be said to trivial. And I'd say that this is after the first point in Driving is achieved.

Smart 16-year-olds are not noticably better drivers than dumb adults. Experience counts here and I'd say that experience is modelled by a point or two in Driving.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I disagree. Most teenagers drive at default. They don't have enough training or experience to get a full point and thus they make driving errors all over the place. The point of driving lessons is to at least get rid of the familiarity penalty and give you a start on on getting your point. Most adults who drive on a regular basis have one point in driving, which considering that they are working off a base value of 10, means their skill is generally 8. Not exactly ready to slalom.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Neither, but closer to B. Anyone with cultural exposure to automobiles.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Failed driving rolls means you may stall out a car if driving standard, might forget to signal a turn, or take the turn a little too fast and jostle the passengers, come too close to the edge of your lane, go too fast and waste some gas, make a wrong turn, etc.

A critically failed driving roll means you get lost, change lanes dangerously without signaling, burn rubber taking that turn, waste a lot of gas driving, get too close to other drivers and cause them to break, etc.

You basically need to get multiple critical failures on a driving roll to get into a fender bender, just like you need multiple critical failures to punch yourself on a brawling roll.

And most people have absolutely no Driving skill, they just operate on default and get bonuses for familiarity from driving their own vehicles on their own familiar stretches of road.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Well, sure.

Except that gas use is more of a choice than a matter of Driving skill. And I've only seen teens who just got their licence stall out cars. And that's because they haven't got their point in Driving yet and hence fail more often than adults.

Actually, you only need one and an unlucky roll on the critical table.

Why?

What magical element keeps Driving from working like other skills? Any other skill that you use daily will eventually get better.

In real life, people who drive a lot are better than people who have rarely driven a car.

Do you really think that if you put an adult who's used to driving a couple of hours a day and a smart teenager who's seen his parents drive behind the wheel of unfamiliar cars and let them drive an unfamiliar route, they'd perform equally well?

Because I happen to think that the adult would do better and that it's not due to a higher DX or IQ, but greater Driving skill.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Not really, it's the same as any other activity which most people do routinely without ever developing any skill in.
If you aren't challenged by what you're doing, you're just doing it by routine, and therefore aren't learning a thing.
This is why most people after working at the same routine job for decades have little more skill at that job than when they got trained up to speed.

People walk and run without developing Hiking skills and Running skills, people go swimming without developing Swimming skills, people use their computers, turn on their lights, operate their stove without developing Electronic Ops, Cooking and other skills.

Not at all.
Being unfamiliar will penalize the teenager at -2 for the vehicle, a -2 for the route, and a -2 for a thrilling new experience.
The adult will get a +2 bonus for operating a vehicle similar enough to his own and a +4 bonus for driving under routine conditions.
So the unskilled teenager in an unfamiliar driving an unfamiliar route will be at -6, whereas the adult will be at +6.

If the adult was driving his own car he'd get +4, under routine conditions another +4, and on his routine route another +2, for a base +10 for his normal commute, which added to his default 5-6 means a normal roll vs. 15- or 16-.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Driving without knowing how is challenging. I quite agree that once someone has developed a certain minimum of skill, he might not push himself to improve it, but before that, it's certainly challenging enough to just drive around.

People who run a lot develop Running skill. People who hike alot develop Hiking skill. People who go swimming sure as hell develop the Swimming skill (the difference between someone who can't swim and someone who can).

The other examples are contrived, because just because Housekeeping skill (which those people are developing) shares a few uses with other skills doesn't mean that it replaces them.

That's just bull.

Why does the adult get a +4 bonus the teenager doesn't get? Why does the adult get a +2 for driving an unfamiliar vehicle where the teenager gets the normal penalty?

You're just loading on a bunch bonuses that aren't supported by the rules to justify a point that's stretching it in the first place.

The example is two people, both of them just as unfamiliar with the route and car in question. One has a decade of experience driving a couple of hours to work, the other has seen a car operated.

Do you think they'd do equally well?

I don't think so. During get-togethers when I have a couple, I've asked adult people unfamiliar with my car to drive it home the ride is usually smooth enough. Certainly, the people don't fail to find the gear shift or turn signals.

Teaching a kid to drive for the first time isn't anything like that. Just operating the clutch and making turns are major problems.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I see no reason why teenagers would have an effective -1 skill. They're bad, but they aren't that bad. It would also be slightly unusual for someone who who goes jogging or swimming 5 or so times a week not to have a point in the relevant skills.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Not at all, the adult doesn't get his full +4 bonus for a familiar vehicle, but it's still close enough to get a +2, whereas the kid is fully unfamiliar with it and gets a -2.

It'd have to be a completely different type of car for the adult to get the same -2 unfamiliarity penalty as the kid.
Something like a joystick operated steam vehicle, or if the adult has never driven stick he would get that -2 instead of +2 for driving shift if he's only ever driven automatics.
Though someone driving an automatic for the first time would still get a +1 to +2 since it's simpler than a stick shift.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Skill use assumes that you're using familiar equipment.

Why are you giving the adult a bunch of bonuses he hasn't paid for instead of just giving him a point in Driving?

It would have the same game effect, but instead of being composed of awkward houserules, it would actually be supported by the rules.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

TDMs are part of the RAW, there's no houserules in using them.
Just because every little task isn't spelled out on how much of a TDM it gets doesn't mean GMs are supposed to not use TDMs.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

TDMs are RAW, but it doesn't say you're supposed to give different people different modifiers. It's a measure of how difficult a task is, not how good the character is at it. We use skills for that.

I don't see a problem with giving a TDM to represent being very familiar with a task or two, but if someone is just better at all aspects of skill use, he's got higher skill, as far as I'm concerned.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

It doesn't take that long to acquired a familiarity.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Many driver's training courses I've seen are far less than 200 hours and so probably aren't with even 1 point in Driving. OTOH, its a good start toward it, and arguably routine driving is no less (though also no more) stressing skills than routine use of skills in a job, so you should probably be able to count each hour of normal driving as 1/4 of a study hour toward improving the skill. So most people who have been driving regularly for years should probably have a point or two in driving.

Extending the analogy with jobs, which, like routine commuting, don't generally stress skills that much, most short trips shouldn't require a roll at all, but a regular commuter might make a monthly (perhaps weekly for a long commute) roll against Driving, with a failure resulting in a minor incident (trivial accident or ticket for a minor infraction) and a critical failure resulting in a major incident of some kind. A Driving roll might be required for a long trip, though.

Also, knowing how to control the vehicle isn't all that's needed for driving: there's also knowing the local rules of the road. This should probably be treated as a per-jurisdiction familiarity that imposes a penalty of up to -4 (depending on how different the jurisdiction's rules are) for unfamiliar jurisdictions, but only applies to tasks involving on-road travel where interactions with other drivers are involved (this would include "routine" driving rolls of the types described above, but generally not most specific rolls in stressful situations, which are mostly about controlling the vehicle, not following the law and expectations of other drivers.)

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I don't like this interpretation because it doesn't mesh well with any of the rest of GURPS. Familiarity is assumed in basic skill use; unfamiliarity is a penalty. But I would agree that there are a multiple axes of unfamiliarity (vehicle, driving area, and jurisdictional "rules of the road") at least that apply to driving, so its possible to get quite a lot of penalties from unfamiliarity (and entirely inexperienced drivers are likely to face all of them).

Most people in many settings (like, say, the modern suburban US) shouldn't be driving by default; they do it enough in a low-stress but not stress-free use that they should be gradually building up points in skill, as in jobs -- if you assume the same 1/4 rate as applies to on-the-job skills, 4 hours of driving a week should give you 1 skill point every 4 years (and if you had any specific training that would provide the full "study" rate of skill acquisition, the first point should come much sooner.)

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I'm not sure, barring a specific character trait that makes the character perform poorly in novel circumstances, that "thrilling new experience" is justified as a separate modifier on top of specific familiarity penalties.


No, he'll just get the absence of an unfamiliarity penalty.

Usually, a "routine conditions" TDM would apply to anyone driving under those conditions, so it would apply either to both the adult and the teen or neither.

More like 0 and +4.

Where does this idea come from? You seem to be going beyond your double counting of familiarity as a penalty to the teen and a bonus to the adult to now giving the adult another familiarity bonus, this one doubly unjustified.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Normal commute driving is at +10, it being GMs' choice whether or not to have the character roll for success.

How that +10 breaks down is up to you, but I'm good with the +10 coming from 3 parts, the driving his own car +4, the under routine conditions +4, and on the routine route +2, for a base +10 for a normal commute.

You can shift those TDMs around if you wish, but you still have to have it add up to a +10 base for a normal commute.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

That makes little sense to me. A person who drives regularly is in a MUCH different situation than a character who has merely seen driving on TV. Since the latter is using a default, the former must be in a better position, i.e. has the skill.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I can't agree with that either. You get a -2 for unfamiliarity, period. A penalty for unfamiliarity of the route is like giving a surgeon an unfamiliarity penalty for not knowing her patient. And the 'thrilling new experience' penalty is gratuitous -- why would it not equally be a bonus?

I think there is a conceptual problem there ... an UNSKILLED person doesn't have familiarity modifiers.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Where does this come from?

If I was regular commute driving had to be a +10, I would have +10 be the TDM for routine commuting, since unfamiliarity being a penalty would be more consistent with the rest of GURPS. But again, reading the description of the Driving skill, the section on Vehicles, the section on task difficulty, and other parts of the Basic Set that would seem applicable, I'm not sure where your +10 comes from.

Again, why, exactly, do I have to do that?

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Any person using a skill who doesn't have familiarity with the equipment takes the appropriate familiarity penalty. Driving would be an especially odd set of skills, otherwise, since the interspecialty defaults are in some cases smaller than the familiarity penalties possible for unfamiliar equipment in the same specialty. If familiarity penalties didn't apply to default use, then if one character had Driving (Heavy Wheeled) and another Driving (Automobile) at the same level, but the latter wasn't familiar with race cars as a type of Automobile, the character using Driving (Automobile) defaulting from Driving (Heavy Wheeled) [at -2] would be better off than the character that actually had Driving (Automobile) [with a -4 unfamiliarity penalty].

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Specific TDMs for various Driving tasks are found on B345, as Driving is used as the example skill for the TDM concept. According to these examples, there is a +10 TDM to one's Driving roll to start a car, while the TDM for commuting in a small town is listed as +4 or +5.

The TDM doesn't break down into anything; it represents the difficulty of the task itself, and is explicitly specified as applying equally to all challengers, in addition to whatever other modifiers may apply.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I think Driving at default, with a mild unfamiliarity penalty (of the sort that goes away after a few hours) makes sense for someone like me, who has no license and only tried driving once, for about an hour on a parking lot at the age of 12 (supervised, of course).

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

By RAW, it takes 50 hours to eliminate an unfamiliarity penalty.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I demand a personal discount, then, since I've actually tried driving (while supervised and instructed), once, more than half a life ago. I figure my unfamiliarity penalty should go away after 1/10 that time, which is 5 hours. But for someone who has never driven a car and needs to figure out everything on an ad hoc basis, 50 hours might be realistic.

Also, are the RAW unfamiliarity rules the same for all activities? ISTR something about weapon unfamiliarity penalties going away after only a few hours, and that was what I was thinking about, when I wrote my previous post.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

C - Anyone with some sort of familiarity with cars, although that would be 'most people living at TL8 in the real world', I think.

For the overall discussion of the driving skill specifically, the way I see it:

Most people will have no more than about 2 points in driving, and having any points at all is going to need to have been driving for about 5 years. (If you want to do the working on the job calculations, that 2 hours of commuting every weekday 50 weeks a year... Is probably not where you're going to be spending your maximum of 8 (counting for 2) hours for learning on the job a day, so that means it's pretty much the driving you do when you're not working that will be counting towards it. A maximum of ~50 hours worth a year for an average person, maybe? Plus ~20 from the learning to drive based on how many one hour driving lessons it seems to take people to pass their test)

Most people who have been driving for less than 5 or so years will always be driving at default, and for most stuff they're doing would have the +4 for routine tasks after they become routine. (In addition to the +4 TDM... So that's +8 in modifiers)

People who haven't had driving lessons... Well, we're working from default, don't have the +4 for routine, and have a variety of penalties on top of that. The best we could hope on that commute is overall modifiers of +0 (-4 for the penalties that will always apply, as far as I can see takes out the TDM)

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

...Where does it say that? Because on 169 of Basic it says 8.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

What people would, according to you, get a point in Driving?

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

IDHMBWM, so maybe I just completely misremembered it. I'll look when I can.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

People who only drive on occasion, or who at most drive something like 30 minutes to work and home everyday and/or pick up the kids from school, take them to activities, go shopping, etc, often have no Driving skill, going off of TDM familiarities and defaults.


People who regularly drive more than just a routine will have some Driving skills, mostly in the 8-12 range.

People who drive professionally, taxi cab drivers, police officers, delivery drivers, chauffeurs, etc., will usually have professional Driving skills of 12-15.

Dangerous profession drivers like race car drivers, stunt car drivers, test car drivers, etc., tend to have Driving skills of 16+.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

That leaves no category left for the non-driver character who attempts to default driving in an emergency.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Count me among those who disagree with you.

Any driving is challenging for a new or infrequent driver. Even on familiar roads, there's no such thing as "routine". If a failed Driving roll is something that results in a minor mistake with no real consequences, I know that my failure rate is above 50%. (I'm licensed, oddly enough, but I have minimal driving experience.) This is clearly a challenging environment that should count for OTJ training, if not actual self-study (at 1/2 speed, not 1/4th)!

Someone who regularly commutes to work or school daily and drives to multiple businesses on a weekly basis, in a variety of daylight and weather conditions and in multiple traffic environments (suburban surface streets, freeways, one-way urban gridlock), and does so with only an occasional failure, is clearly more skilled than a new driver. I'm not going to entertain argument on this point; auto insurance companies long ago came to the same conclusion, based on reams of real data compiled over decades, and you can argue the point with them if you like. I think that anyone who has been driving on a mostly-daily basis for a few years, which includes almost all American commuters, ought to have a point in Driving.

Part of the problem is just GURPS' granularity, and the odd relationship between point expenditure and skill level, which doesn't follow any continuous mathematical progression that I know of. If we were to allow point fractions, then drivers might gain +1 (at about 1/8 point) almost immediately, perhaps even by the end of driver training or shortly thereafter, get up to +2 or +3 (1/2 point) within a year, and then accumulate point fractions at an ever-decreasing rate over their lifetime, so that most drivers would have somewhere between 1 and 4 points depending on age and experience. Since we don't (barring house rules), we get these weird breakpoints between clumsy teenage incompetence and careless thirty-something routine.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

The non-driver has penalties for non-familiarity and does not get many positive TDMs, it's a significant difference.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I'd agree on the lack of granularity, which for me is where TDMs come in.

On this I disagree, for the most part drivers' training removes their penalties for lack of equipment familiarity and gives them a skill default.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

It doesn't make sense to me to assess non-familiarity penalties against someone who is already at a penalty for complete lack of the skill itself. OF COURSE someone without the skill is unfamiliar with the equipment used by the skill -- it's already assumed.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

People at this level have also learned the highway traffic laws. Is that included in Driving skill or does GURPS model that separately?

BTW, 1 hr driving/day x 200 days/year /800 hrs per point self study = 1 point earned every 4 years. Thus the typical commuting North American would almost certainly have 2 points in driving by age 30 from this alone.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Self study would be going out to practice your driving skills, not driving around normally.

Probably. They might just have a wider variety of tasks for which the +4 mundane applies, however.

Additionally - The thing about it being OTJ training, which I do agree with, is that you're limited to eight hours a day, and I think most of that would be spent on skills that directly contribute to your job rather than skills to get you to your job.

I'd also be prepared to argue that a failure on a driving test might result in something as trivial as you missing your turn and being five minutes later than it should take you (on a margin of failure of a 1, granted), or getting caught speeding with the appropriate minor legal troubles from that, while it requiring a critical failure to get involved in an accident.

Hard to measure, really, since GURPS stacks the odds in their favour (+8 to roll for a daily commute, which even at default is attribute +3) compared to someone with no experience, who's penalties cancel out the +4 TDM. (I do mostly agree with you, though, although note that it would take longer than the 1/4 would imply due to the 8 hour a day cap on on-the-job training)

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Not so. People at default can have familiarity with equipment - The 200 hours training that you need for a point in the skill is a lot more than it takes someone to become familiar with a piece of equipment. Heck, while skill is irrelevant to familiarities once gameplay beings, gameplay assumes that someone with 1 point in a skill is familiar with two pieces of equipment for using that skill, two types of gun, two models of car, whatever. They don't just materialise from nowhere at 200 hours worth of training.

Default is simply the skill level someone has with zero points invested in the skill. Familiarity penalties apply to skill level.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

The driving course familiarizes you with the controls of the car and the basic rules (Which most seem to forget as soon as they get their permit). In no way is it enough to really learn to drive.

For your hours ... that's more like "on the job" (You do something you already basically know) so multiply the time by 2...

I use to do drive a pick-up truck for long distance delivery as a student in winter, in Canada and I was also doing regular car racing on weekends with friends (we even had a group sponsor). The races were typically Karts capable of about 100Km/h, but sometimes clunker races with old cars on an oval. We would be driving for hours on end and at first bumping in other cars or the tire covered walls along the way, but we eventually got the hang of it.

One day, a few other friends decided to come along for indoor Karting (About 30-40 Km/h). The ones without drivers licenses were doing almost as well as the ones driving for a few years (1-5 years); but the ones with a bit the driving experience could handle curves a bit better after a few laps. The ones used to racing where leaving them in their smoke. Apexing curves, lean-ins, when to brake, how much, when to accelerate, when to pass... There was a definite difference in skills; the biggest problem with the beginners was that they did not follow their lines properly, making them a bit harder to predict.

I still think it's a default for at least 5 years after the license for most people.
A failure does not mean that you crashed into someone (that's a critical fail). It means you drifted out of your lane, didn't stop properly at the intersection, almost (but not quite) caused an accident, were in the wrong lane for the exit and either missed it or then had to do a stupid move to correct (like crossing over two lanes and almost ramming into a truck that you just cut-off).

I'm 45 and think I have one (may be two, most likely one) point in driving. I can handle the stress better then I use too when I got my license. But I easily know where to keep my lane, know when to control speed and when to let go.

Steering on ice is a lot of fun, you should try it in a kart at close to 90 Km/h (50 mph) and getting close to a curve. (PS Make sure you have stud (spikes) on your wheels for that one and wear something warm.)

EtVous

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

This doesn't make sense. TDM's are based on the difficulty of the task, they aren't adjusted for the skill or background of the person performing the task, generally (though, sometimes, successful use of a skill other than the one controlling the task warrants a positive TDM for the task.)

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

No, nonfamiliarity is not assumed in skill defaults. As I pointed out upthread, if that were the case, Driving defaults would be goofy, as someone with Driving (Automobile)-14 but unfamiliar with race cars (-4 unfamiliarity, per description of driving skill) would be worse at driving race cars than someone with Driving (Heavy Wheeled)-14 driving a race car by defaulting Driving (Automobile) to Driving (Heavy Wheeled), since Driving (Automobile) defaults to Driving (Heavy Wheeled) at -2. For defaults to make any sense, unfamiliarity penalties must apply to default skill use.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Is that a conclusion based on analysis, or is there a rule reference for it as well?

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

In GURPS, the general rule is that if it's not stated that certain rules work differently when used together, they are assumed to work normally.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

And in this context that means ... ?

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Unfamiliarity rules apply unless otherwise directly noted on the skill description.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Its a conclusion based on a combination of analysis (which shoes that defaults don't makes sense if familiarity penalties don't apply to them) and the absence of rule statement that familiarity penalties do not apply to default use. The rules state "Any skill used to operate equipment...takes a penalty when you are faced with an unfamiliar type of item." (B169) They do not state any exception for skills used from a default from another skill or attribute, and the results if such an unstated exception were adopted are nonsensical, so I think the best reading is that the rules mean what they say, and do not mean to imply the unstated exception that some people have inferred.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I'm looking at an example. Heavy Wheeled driving defaults to Automobile at -2. So a person with skill in Driving Automobile has the same difficulty driving a Heavy Wheeled vehicle as a person skilled in HWed would have on an unfamiliar peice of equipment for 8 hours. I don't see the problem.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Driving unfamiliarity penalties are -2 for an unfamiliar control system, -4 for an unfamiliar type within the specialty (specific example given in the text is for Driving (Automobile) -- -4 for race cars when you are familiar with stock cars but not race cars.) So, if unfamiliarity penalties don't apply, a character with Driving (Heavy Wheeled) at 14 drives a race car at 12 (-2 default penalty), while a person with Driving (Automobile) at 14 but not familiar with race cars drives a race car at 10 (-4 unfamiliarity penalty).

Having Driving (Heavy Wheeled) at 14 should never let you drive a vehicle that uses Driving (Automobile) better than having Driving (Automobile) at 14.

At any rate, whether you agree that there is a problem or not with the proposed exception to unfamiliarity penalties for default skill use, there is no exception in the rules for default skill use to the rule that "Any skill used to operate equipment...takes a penalty when you are faced with an unfamiliar type of item", so the proposed exception remains a house rule, not RAW. For the reasons described above, I think the propose house rule is problematic, at least as applied to Driving. Its somewhat less problematic in most other cases (though still, IMO, undesirable compared to RAW), as, at least AFAIK, Driving is somewhat exceptional in having defined unfamiliarity penalties that exceed interspecialty default penalties.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Okay, I see what you are saying, but I have a hard time accepting the results. Under that method, a normal car driver getting behind the wheel of a dump-truck is at -8, all else being equal. Even a professional chauffeur (Skill 12), needs a critical success and will succeed in navigating the truck less than 2 times in a hundred. I have a hard time concluding that this result can be the intention of the RAW.

In any event, I prefer to regard the defaults as superceding the familiarity penalties where they conflict.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I have operated some heavy equipment (for 2 years), a school bus (for 4 years), and motorcycles (20 years), and I have taught motorcycle driving courses. I have had to take courses on all three of these types of vehicles. By some people's measure, this wouldn't qualify me to even have one point in Driving (Construction Equipment), Driving (Heavy Wheeled), or Driving (Motorcycle). Personally, I think I would have at least 1-2 points in each, possibly 4 points in Driving (Motorcycle). But, I can say with all certainty that I can drive my car with more certainty and skill than any any of the others. I have never taken a course on driving a car, but I put about 20,000 km per year on my car (I drive a lot for my job). I would translate this into about 4-8 points into Driving (Automobile). Isn't this the way skills are supposed to be interpreted?

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I meant to ask about this earlier. But why is making a wrong turn an example of failed Driving roll? Wouldn't that rather be a failed Navigation or Area Knowledge roll?

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

If you do a lot of driving you likely do have a decent driving skill.

As for on the job training, past a certain point, where you've learned what you need to do your job, you mostly just maintain that skill level, though some people just get sloppier over time and their skills drop as they get older.

Otherwise you'd get the same sort of silly Murphy as D&D where old people's eyes and ears get sharper as they get older due to their wisdom increases. In GURPS you don't get 40 points in a skill just because you happen to put work in for 40 years in a profession which uses that skill.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Nah, you aren't lost, you know where you're going, you just take a turn too early or too late, drive past your house, drive a bit onto the lawn, etc., because you're distracted/missed your driving roll.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Simply living in a driving-rich culture and watching how people drive grants a skill default. Almost any teen in America would get the default even without specialized eduction, and would have a half-decent chance to operate a car in a mostly-legal fashion for short periods without running it into something or having to ask what the various levers and knobs do. (There are occasionally news stories about this.) Genghis Khan, by contrast, probably couldn't.

I could buy that it removes the unfamiliarity penalty, sure.. but I don't see any reason why familiarity and skill should be exclusive. IMO, it's typical that you learn how to do something while also becoming familiar with the thing you do it with.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I definitely wouldn't game it that way. Making a wrong turn would be a failed Navigation or Area Knowledge roll - possibly due to distraction. Turning too wide, driving up on the lawn, hitting the curb, hitting a pothole, etc. are more in the realm of failed Driving roll. Taking a turn too late because you were distracted and ran a Red light and found you had to go straight to avoid having an accident would certainly be a failed driving roll.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Sounds reasonable to me; some others would probably disagree.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I agree that there is a point where people peak in their skill. In my campaigns I use (Attribute+0) or skill level 12, whichever is higher. To progress beyond this requires exceptional dedication, or a lot of experience in high-stress situations.

As for Driving, I think there is a tendency to equate bad judgment with low skill. A lot of people are perfectly capable drivers but have lapses of judgment. One of my close friends is an excellent off-roader. He can navigate very rough terrain in his 4WD Pickup, much better than I can, and goes off-roading a lot. But, he has been in a half dozen car accidents because he is overconfident and impulsive. Most car accidents happen because of a lapse of judgment, not lack of driving skill. How this exactly equates to GURPS, I don't know, but I definitely disagree with having most adults with a drivers license using Driving at default.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Looking at it from the side of someone who do not drive:

I do not have a driving license. I have horrible reaction time, and a unreasonable phobia of driving.

I got a few hours 'training' driving around with my father in a parking lot when i was about 17, perhaps a couple of hour, so from that time on, i know , in theory, how to start and carefully move a car around at a a very low speed.

About twenty year later, since it would have been very usefull in my job to be able to drive, i decided to try driving lessons.
The first lesson was basically 'what everything is' and moving around on a parking lots. 1.5 hours
The second lesson, 5 minutes of recap and then, on the road we go. Staying on slow, country road. 1.5 hour
The third lesson, we started in front of the main train station at rush hour on a weekday in a very busy town, the teacher told me to climb in the driver place and go. we drived in and out of town for the rest of the lesson.
(5 lesson later, having barely missed wrecking the car twice, and basically having anxiety attack everytime i was touching that mechanical monster, i decided to forget about it. )
The teacher was unhappy was me, as he said i have 'excellent control in maneuvers and a carefull way of driving, and ready for the exam'

So, with about 3 hours of teaching, i was able to drive a car in very busy streets, with some verbal advices.
with about 16 hour of lessons, i was said to be fit to try for the licence, and to drive alone in all circumstances.

So, in my opinion:

-Roman legionnary in front of a car:
No idea what it is, may not even try at default.

-Leonard de vinci in front of a car,
May try at default, with TL and unfamiliarity with controls penalties on top of the default . (IQ(-5-15-2+10) to start the car, iq(-14) to drive around once he figured the controls ) iq 18, roll at 6 and 4 ... Altough he may get bonus from artificer talent or vizualization ?

-young modern child borrowing parent car in a empty street
roll at default, unfamiliarity with control, task bonus on top
dx/iq(-5-2+6). dx 10: roll at 9

-young modern driver just before/after getting his driving license
roll at default
dx/iq(-5+5). dx 10, roll at 10, roll at 8 in a busy town.
This is basically my level.
Except i feel there should be a +2 bonus somewhere, to bring the roll to 12/10 ... On average, young driver don't have problem half the time getting to work, and they definitively don't have the driving skill.
Possibly
Perk: licensed driver, can legally drive a car +2 to driving on routine rolls only ?

-Driver with two year of experience (about 800 hours of driving)
1 point in skill
dx(-1+5) dx 10, roll at 14, 12 in a busy town
roll at 16/14 with the perk i suggested looks even better

-Most driver who only drive in routine situation should never exceed 2 point in skill, imho.

celjabba

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I run GURPS so that those types of things are simplified, in that those lapses in judgment are subsumed into the skill you roll against.

So I'd either stat him up with a minimal driving skill, 1 point, and give him a solid Technique for Offroading.
Or possibly stat him with default Driving skill and a decent Hobby Skill in Offroading.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Techniques are usually studied when one has two-four points in a skill. At first stages, it is usually not worth specializing if the basics are not yet learned fully.

And what the hell would Offroading be as a separate skill? That's just contrary to how GURPS works. Do we have Bad Weather Piloting skill now too?

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

The problem is that you go from a -5 to a -1 with a single point in the skill, without anything in between. I'm suggesting a greater gradation.

Numbering:

-7 (Saw driving in culture, default and unfamiliarity penalty.)
-5 (Default with driving lessons to remove unfamiliarity penalty.)
-4 (Default with +1 TDM for his own vehicle after a few hours.)
-3 (Default with +2 TDM for his own vehicle after a few days.)
-2 (Default with +3 TDM for his own vehicle after a few weeks.)
-1 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle after a few months.)
-0 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM when driving becomes routine.)
+1 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM for driving a known route, +1 TDM for routine driving.)
+2 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM for known route, +2 TDM for months of routine driving conditions.)
+3 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +1 TDM for routine route, +3 TDM for a couple of years of routine driving conditions.)
+4 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +2 TDM for familiar route, +3 TDM for a couple of years of routine driving conditions.)
+5 (Default with +4 TDM for his own vehicle, and +2 TDM for familiar route, +4 TDM for a few years of routine driving conditions.)

Mix and match, add +4 for anyone with an actual [1] in Driving Skill.