Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I disagree. Most teenagers drive at default. They don't have enough training or experience to get a full point and thus they make driving errors all over the place. The point of driving lessons is to at least get rid of the familiarity penalty and give you a start on on getting your point. Most adults who drive on a regular basis have one point in driving, which considering that they are working off a base value of 10, means their skill is generally 8. Not exactly ready to slalom.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Neither, but closer to B. Anyone with cultural exposure to automobiles.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Failed driving rolls means you may stall out a car if driving standard, might forget to signal a turn, or take the turn a little too fast and jostle the passengers, come too close to the edge of your lane, go too fast and waste some gas, make a wrong turn, etc.

A critically failed driving roll means you get lost, change lanes dangerously without signaling, burn rubber taking that turn, waste a lot of gas driving, get too close to other drivers and cause them to break, etc.

You basically need to get multiple critical failures on a driving roll to get into a fender bender, just like you need multiple critical failures to punch yourself on a brawling roll.

And most people have absolutely no Driving skill, they just operate on default and get bonuses for familiarity from driving their own vehicles on their own familiar stretches of road.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Well, sure.

Except that gas use is more of a choice than a matter of Driving skill. And I've only seen teens who just got their licence stall out cars. And that's because they haven't got their point in Driving yet and hence fail more often than adults.

Actually, you only need one and an unlucky roll on the critical table.

Why?

What magical element keeps Driving from working like other skills? Any other skill that you use daily will eventually get better.

In real life, people who drive a lot are better than people who have rarely driven a car.

Do you really think that if you put an adult who's used to driving a couple of hours a day and a smart teenager who's seen his parents drive behind the wheel of unfamiliar cars and let them drive an unfamiliar route, they'd perform equally well?

Because I happen to think that the adult would do better and that it's not due to a higher DX or IQ, but greater Driving skill.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Not really, it's the same as any other activity which most people do routinely without ever developing any skill in.
If you aren't challenged by what you're doing, you're just doing it by routine, and therefore aren't learning a thing.
This is why most people after working at the same routine job for decades have little more skill at that job than when they got trained up to speed.

People walk and run without developing Hiking skills and Running skills, people go swimming without developing Swimming skills, people use their computers, turn on their lights, operate their stove without developing Electronic Ops, Cooking and other skills.

Not at all.
Being unfamiliar will penalize the teenager at -2 for the vehicle, a -2 for the route, and a -2 for a thrilling new experience.
The adult will get a +2 bonus for operating a vehicle similar enough to his own and a +4 bonus for driving under routine conditions.
So the unskilled teenager in an unfamiliar driving an unfamiliar route will be at -6, whereas the adult will be at +6.

If the adult was driving his own car he'd get +4, under routine conditions another +4, and on his routine route another +2, for a base +10 for his normal commute, which added to his default 5-6 means a normal roll vs. 15- or 16-.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Driving without knowing how is challenging. I quite agree that once someone has developed a certain minimum of skill, he might not push himself to improve it, but before that, it's certainly challenging enough to just drive around.

People who run a lot develop Running skill. People who hike alot develop Hiking skill. People who go swimming sure as hell develop the Swimming skill (the difference between someone who can't swim and someone who can).

The other examples are contrived, because just because Housekeeping skill (which those people are developing) shares a few uses with other skills doesn't mean that it replaces them.

That's just bull.

Why does the adult get a +4 bonus the teenager doesn't get? Why does the adult get a +2 for driving an unfamiliar vehicle where the teenager gets the normal penalty?

You're just loading on a bunch bonuses that aren't supported by the rules to justify a point that's stretching it in the first place.

The example is two people, both of them just as unfamiliar with the route and car in question. One has a decade of experience driving a couple of hours to work, the other has seen a car operated.

Do you think they'd do equally well?

I don't think so. During get-togethers when I have a couple, I've asked adult people unfamiliar with my car to drive it home the ride is usually smooth enough. Certainly, the people don't fail to find the gear shift or turn signals.

Teaching a kid to drive for the first time isn't anything like that. Just operating the clutch and making turns are major problems.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

I see no reason why teenagers would have an effective -1 skill. They're bad, but they aren't that bad. It would also be slightly unusual for someone who who goes jogging or swimming 5 or so times a week not to have a point in the relevant skills.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Not at all, the adult doesn't get his full +4 bonus for a familiar vehicle, but it's still close enough to get a +2, whereas the kid is fully unfamiliar with it and gets a -2.

It'd have to be a completely different type of car for the adult to get the same -2 unfamiliarity penalty as the kid.
Something like a joystick operated steam vehicle, or if the adult has never driven stick he would get that -2 instead of +2 for driving shift if he's only ever driven automatics.
Though someone driving an automatic for the first time would still get a +1 to +2 since it's simpler than a stick shift.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

Skill use assumes that you're using familiar equipment.

Why are you giving the adult a bunch of bonuses he hasn't paid for instead of just giving him a point in Driving?

It would have the same game effect, but instead of being composed of awkward houserules, it would actually be supported by the rules.

Re: old theme - What exactly is default?
 

TDMs are part of the RAW, there's no houserules in using them.
Just because every little task isn't spelled out on how much of a TDM it gets doesn't mean GMs are supposed to not use TDMs.