Parry a Slam?
 

I was playing GURPS this weekend. The GM had a ST 12 dude slam me. I am a fencer, armed with a saber. So he comes at me and I decide my options. Turns out parry is on the table, but the GM warns me that I might break my saber because the slammer is considered a heavy weapon.

Here is my problem with these rules. The slammer weighs about 150lbs, lets say. All his motion contains a lot of energy because of his mass. A saber is a weapon with a lot less mass. Seems to me that a saber (or any sword) would find it impossible to deflect the mass of the slammer. Why?

1. The sword would not have enough mass, even if swung, to deflect the amss of the body.
2. The body is made of tissue, which is kid of soft. Unless dressed in plate mail or something it would probably push the blade back, not snap it. Also, the wrist of the defender would probably bend because his muscles will give way from the force of the blow.

So, it seems to me that the rules should have the parry automatically fail unless there are exceptional circumstances.

The only exception would be to aggressively parry, hitting the enemy as he comes in (he is exposing himself to attack) without his blade snapping, or to set the blade so the slammer will impale himself (which I think would take a ready maneuver). Maybe there should be a "Fast-Set" technique to react to slams and their ilk.

Thoughts?

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

no, one way is through deflection, diverting them onto a path that does not run into you.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

But isn't that more of a judo move, using a sword to push?

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

You can parry a slam just fine: brace your weapon against the other arm, your shield, etc., and push him away. That counts as a parry (remember: per GURPS Martial Arts, weapon skills all include the ability to shove and slam with weapons, so doing so defensively isn't anything special). The catch is that slams count as weapons with weight = attacker's ST. This is a medium-sized to large problem for ST 12+ attackers (the sort of people who like to slam) vs. the typical run of light melee weapons. Even a ST 10 man has a good chance of snapping your broadsword, and a ST 15 thug has decent odds of snapping your bastard sword.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

1.) Weapon parries are automatically aggressive vs. unarmed attacks, including slams (except weapon slams, obviously). If you parry, he takes damage.

2.) According to MA, fencing parries have a Dodge component to them as well, using your weapon to draw the attack out of line enough for you to dodge it.

But yeah, I agree that Basic GURPS rules leave something to be desired when it comes to simulating parrying very heavy objects (like people). Personally, I'd apply GULLIVER's "oomph" rules. You're parrying a 150-pound guy with Basic Lift 28.8, which gives an oomph of 178.8. You're using a 2-pound sabre, and I'll assume you also have Basic Lift 28.8, which gives you an oomph of 30.8. With an oomph ratio of 5.8:1, the table here says that's a -4 to parry. I'd call that fair.

-Max

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Okay, that seems to be the way a basic fighter might do it. But being around people that are trained with swords), I would say that they would rather do a dodge and swing the sword to give a blow. Their sword would never break because they wouldn't allow it, the maneuver you speak of would probably be taught AGAINST.

Which brings me to the other thing about defending against slams:

Say the slammer is moving at 6 yards/sec. This is far slower than a swung weapon and you can see it coming. Shouldn't active defenses be easier?

It just seem that slams are more useful in this game than real life (except maybe sumo or World Wrestling Entertainment).

BTW: That would be an awesome PDF: Professional Wrestling for Martial Arts. Rules for bouncing off the ropes, clotheslining, the back breaker, a flying forearm smash... it would be awesome.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

The Roman army conquered most of Europe by going slam, bash, stab, slam, bash, stab.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Reminds me of O.J.'s new website: oj.com/\/\/\ (slash, backslash, slash...etc.)

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

If you're stuck on the notion that a parry is only swinging the blade into an opposing weapon, picture it like this; A successful parry is slapping them broadside in the head, this puts them off their course while they adjust for balance. A failed parry and a weapon break represents getting it caught on armor and having it bend, warp and break.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

This one's not too much of a problem, just a matter of considering the variety of actions covered by the GURPS parry. In addition to the several good examples already pointed out, consider a point-first parry that successfully forces the slammer to divert course to avoid being impaled.

This one's tougher to explain away. I've always scratched my head over 150 lbs of soft tissue snapping a dagger (not knocking it away, not automatically a failed parry, IIRC not automatically a successful counterattack due to Impulsive Boy launching himself at the pointy, or whatever our intuition might suggest is at least as likely as snapping a stubby steel blade on someone's onrushing belly).

I guess some rules are more universal than others: sometimes you have to pick your poison between universal perfect applicability (i.e., rules that describe every collision just like RL) and elegance/playability (i.e., not having hundreds of tenuously-related subsets of rules). This rule does have the look of a compromise for simplicity's sake. And, as pointed out, there are some nice house rules out there.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

On a "weapon breaks vs. Slam" result, maybe a roll on the Critical Miss table would be an interesting alternative. The weapon breaking or being dropped, or turned in the hand are pretty common results there. There is a small possibility of falling down, but the most likely results are rather milder than a weapon break, so I would imagine most Slam parriers being open to it, and the variability of result is nice.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

My money's on the 150 pound meatbag, actually. And AFAIK, the slammer still suffers the consequences of attacking unarmed.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Not impossible, but consider whether or not slamming is a valid tactic in whatever simulation you are basing the conclusion on.
A fencer trained in an art that halts for corps-a-corps and resets may act very differently than one trained to clear away any intervening blade and run his opponent down.
Not having done an exhaustive search I cannot say that only the first way is taught anymore but I would be interested to know if the art you are referencing includes punching with a basket hilt, checking/slamming and stomping on the opponent's foot as legitimate maneuvers. If so I would find this to be a rarity (but an interesting one).

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Oh yeah, my money too, what little of it there is. No argument on whether the rules ought to discourage parrying slams with daggers instead of big heavy thangs. The weird part is that the discouragement takes the form of weapon breakage - when in this case weapon droppage, weapon no-stop-slammage, etc, seem much more likely. (I emphasized the softness of the slammer to cast doubt on weapon breakage, not to suggest that Dagger Parry Guy should have an advantage.)

Haven't really thought it through, but I rather like the suggestion above of substituting a parry crit fail roll for weapon breakage that violates common sense, while of course still applying the consequences of unarmed attacker + successful armed parry.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

I do too. But I still think that it should be slam vs. dodge (no parry). If you have aggressive parry you can choose to get hit but do damage to the opponent.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

So is it possible to attempt this sort of parry against a shield slam from the rear? say in a runaround situation where you do get a penalized parry. It seems the rules technically allow for this but I do not see it possible to make this sort of brace against the slam.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

For 7 years, this thread lay unquiet in its grave, until the dread necromancer known as Henquist intoned:I don't see why it would be impossible. If you've been visually tracking the attacker during their runaround, you have some time to react, and (as you noted) you're already being penalized for the effective Flank.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

As far as the mass issue, Pyramid 3-77 has an interesting (and often previously discussed) alternative to the standard, though it won't make a huge difference at ST 12
A run-around slam is a pretty awkward maneuver in its own right...

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Yah. It's me trying to dance.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Once you get that problem heeled you should be back on the dance floor...



I'm with Dustin and Ulzgoroth, the penalty takes into account the difficulty of turning and bracing against the attack, so you can attempt to parry a run-around slam.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Aren't you worried of the very idea of seeing heeled DouglasCole, particularly trying to dance?

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

I half remember an alternative of use some function of BL rather than ST for weights but I can't quite remember it.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

It was always BL/2 and BL/10 for slams and strikes, respectively. To give the same values as the regular rule at ST 10.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

This is actually covered under the Parrying Heavy Weapons rule - you cannot parry a weapon with an effective weight (ST in the case of a slam) higher than your Basic Lift (or BLx2 for a two-handed weapon).

So you can use a sabre to deflect a human attempting to Slam you, but don't try it against the horse.

That said, the Slams with weapons or Shield Rush rules would apply unless the guy is seriously trying to shoulder-charge someone in a sword-fight.

I think I remember parrying a slam described as a "hayforking" motion, where you redirect the energy of their charge aside by angling the weapon so their charge just slides off.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Someone enthusiastically rushing someone else holding a smallish pointy metal thingy which the latter tries to interpose between them should quite often end with a failure from both sides. The rusher getting a pointy thing in his guts and ruhsee slammed hard and landed on. For a failed or successfull parry action this seems to not be any of the results in GURPS. Probably only be something that could be described after using GURPS mechanic of making a ready action to hit if somene moving onto you.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

What you just described would be a Stop Hit against a Slam... not a Parry.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

I think the issue with parrying heavy object breaking your weapon, is unless you are actually physically attached to your weapon, your grip will be weaker then your weapon which means your grip will 'break/fail' before your weapon does.

So barring odd exceptions like weapons braced against floors / walls* etc, a the risk should be being disarmed or being made unready not breaking your weapon.

This is especially true for relatively slow moving attacks like human slams.


However I believe Douglas Cole is working on some alternative rules for this?


*where the wall / floor is stronger than the weapon

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

I think the Stop Thrust is likely to do serious damage to the slammer (I certainly wouldn't rush at someone carrying a pointy thing unless I were wearing damn heavy armour) but the Slam would probably go through with an appropriate penalty for all that pain.

Rules as Written require a Wait to brace for a stop thrust but if you can see the slammer coming I'd say you've got the time to do that. If you're unaware or boggled by surprise then you don't.

So the guy with the flimsy sword's options are:

Stop Thrust and hope you drop him or slow his attack enough that the collision won't matter. Can you also dodge/parry? I'd say not: you're sacrificing that chance to use your enemy's momentum against him. Maybe going for a leg might make better tactical sense.

Dodge. And if you can make it Acrobatic or retreating do so.

Parry. And hope your expensive skinny sword doesn't snap.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

The first GURPS combat rules (Man to Man, first edition, maybe 2nd edition) had a Stop Thrust (optional?) rule, which is basically that if you've got a ready thrusting hand weapon which can parry, and someone advances towards you into range, you can use a parry as a stop thrust attack during their movement, which if it hits and they fail to defend (obviously if they use a Retreat defense, that stops their forward move), does maximum damage.

Going even further back, as veterans of The Fantasy Trip (GURPS' ancestor), this seemed natural or even tame, as the TFT equivalent is you get +2 to hit and do double damage when someone charges up your polearm (but it only applies to spears and polearms in TFT).

At any rate, it definitely seems to me that if I have a hand weapon ready enough to parry, and someone tries to slam or grapple me from the front, I would certainly think I'm going to have a very good opportunity to hit them with the ready weapon as they try, and it would be at a major advantage compared to trying to hit someone standing back a bit and trying not to get hit. Trying to come right at someone is basically offering your body and some momentum, making a solid hit easy. If they're in heavy armor, that might work out, but otherwise, it seems like an invitation to consequences beyond even a free normal attack. Seems like there should be both to-hit and damage bonuses, as well as the ability to attack as they do it.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Submitted these a long time ago, so if they pass muster, they'll appear in Pyramid. If not, they'll appear on my blog, but that can be a long time in the dark.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Martial Arts p108 has the current Stop Hit rules.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Maybe replace the weapon-breakage roll with a ST check?

Martial Arts p. 106, Dealing With Charging Foes, lists a Parry as giving you a bonus attack. Then uses Holding A Foe at Bay (Quick Contest of ST) for the foe to get closer, so this could represent him charging through the Parry (although he takes the damage first).

I think those are separate from the Stop Thrust rules - because Martial Arts on p. 106 (Dealing With Charging Foes) also refers to using the stop thrust rules on B. p.366 instead of pointing the reader towards p. 108.

Essentially bracing for a Stop Thrust does +1 damage for every 2 squares of speed your opponent is moving at.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Good points.

I need to refamiliarize myself with those.

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Cool, cheers

TD

Could work, or maybe a skill roll after the parry to see if you retain a ready weapon (penalised by some factor of relative weight)

Re: Parry a Slam?
 

Split the difference and go for a ST or DX based skill roll.

Per additional multiple past 3 normally causes +1 to weapon breakage rolls, so in this case we could add a -1 to the skill check per additional multiple.