DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

What do you think are the best, most munchkiney combos in DF? Or at least fun synergies?

1.) Is it just me, or is Wizard-Swashbuckler with Rapier Wit an awesome combination? Free-action, no-FP-cost mental stunning of anyone who speaks your language, using an IQ skill for which the rule of 16 does not apply? Yes, please. That's not even counting the ostensible advantage of the lens, which is enhanced defenses and luck.

2.) As pointed out in a different thread, slings are awesome. Gargoyle knights with slings are even better.

3.) In fact, gargoyles in general are pretty cool. Night vision gives you a tactical advantage over anyone who doesn't have it (douse the lights--they'll be at -5 skill relative to you), flight is great for strafing with missiles and/or gaining height bonuses in melee combat (+3/-3), and who can say "No" to a little bit of extra DR? The unarmed combat advantages might be nice for "friendly" scuffles in town, although the +1 HT doesn't matter because you could have bought it anyway.

4.) Nymphs are cool. +10 reaction bonus?!!! I haven't figured out how to use this but I like the idea a lot. The one thing that turns me off is that I can't figure out how the mana dependency should be gamed. A given dungeon is going to be either No Mana or not, right? The nymph will either be irrelevant for that adventure or not.

5.) Trolls are cool conceptually, but Regen (Regular) is too slow for my AD&D-trained brain. Should be Regen (Fast) and enhanced DR, even if that makes them more expensive than Ogres.

6.) Pixie Thieves seem like a great idea. SM -6 is great defensively, and +3 DX for 25 points is great too. In fact, Flight + Magery 0 + Enhanced Dodge make the Pixie a natural vehicle for the Wizard-Swashbuckler combo, especially since that makes ST -5 semi-irrelevant. If only I could figure out this Dependency (Mana) thing...

7.) The Draconic's Trivial vow makes me laugh.

-Max

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Pixies are probably my favorite of the DF3 races. If he has enough room, a Pixie Wizard can easily scorch his enemies with Fireball spells from 20 yards away. And I would really like to see what a swarm of Pixie Knights could do to...

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Minotaur barbarians for life!!

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That's a really odd way of looking at it. Why wouldn't there be some mana-drained areas, and some not?

I'm also in favor of making mana dependant creatures take HP damage at a reduced rate in Low mana areas (1 per hour probably) simply because it gives the disadvantage a chance to come up at the "mildly dangerous" level from time to time, giving a middle ground between "Fine" and "ACK!"

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I think of No/Low/High/Very High mana areas as geographic features on the order of miles across at the very least. Is that unusual?

-Max

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Yeah, I think so. There's no reason that, say, a single room with a powerful altar in it can't be Low- or No-Mana due to the sanctified energies. I'm also in favor of oozes with Mana Damper (Area Effect) as a trait, specialized areas that have been drained of mana specifically so the dungeon keeper could imprison mages there, and so on. Odd mana doesn't have to be a "natural" feature on a geological scale -- there are lots of justifications for screwing with mana level.

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

The Dependency was added on the assumption that GMs will have areas with no mana in dungeons, but not entire dungeons without mana. As DF 2 says, "Don't fill a whole dungeon with no-mana areas just for kicks, though – that's boring for wizards and bards, and unfair to PCs with magical Signature Gear." And that's the truth. So this Dependency amounts to injury while the party figures out how to open the doors on the No Mana Prison O' Doom without spells, or as the party journeys down the mile-long mana-free tunnel between the surface and the dungeon, intended to keep the zombies from escaping.

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Nymph Bard, definitely. Enthrallment skills are relatively inexpensive and free to use, and the reaction bonus alone means you have a good chance of walking into a den of humanoid "monsters" and getting them to listen to your "request for help" (actually an excuse to start spinning your Enthrallment story).

Halfing Scout is a no-brainer. The bonus to Bow and the Silence are incredible advantages, and the low SM means even more penalties to notice you tracking me.

Leprechaun Wizard. The Charms perk is potent if you think about it. Any three spells, ignoring prereqs? Nice if you're a dabbler, dangerous if you're a trained wizard with lots of FP.

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

I was working on a Troll Scout. High Per, added DX, Discriminatory Smell adds to tracking. Regeneration is appealing, as is Universal Digestion (you don't need to worry about carrying rations).

Signature Gear (Salamander Amulet) [10] is a pretty good deal for those playing a troll, and I would also allow them to purchase a couple of levels of Light Visions [1] (to negate penalties for bright light; probably limit them to 1-2 levels, as would be realistic for a human).

I say some regeneration is better than none...even if they have to take a few hours to recover, not needing to rely on the clerics for healing is very advantageous.

I don't really like the Pixies...yes, they can be made into very abusable, munchkiny characters, but they just feel too small!

As has been mentioned in another DF thread, the Leprechauns "charms" could be highly abusable.

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

For very high, it seems inapropriate to have it as a very large area.

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Somewhat so, yes. The most likely source of areas without mana is the Drain Mana spell, which at an hour to cast and 10 energy base cost, and a risk of permanent Magery loss, won't be cast large or often. I'd say that the typical no-mana area in dungeon fantasy would be a 10-yard circle or so.

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Of course, if that's the case, there's going to have to be something preventing the Nymphs and others with the Dependency from getting out of the smallish area before a minute is up, or there won't be much impact.

There's a question - if you have an environmental Dependency, and you stray into an area where that environmental condition is absent, do you start feeling the loss at all before you lose your first HP or FP? Or is your first notice the fact that you feel weak, injured, or tired?

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Hmm, okay. I always viewed Drain Mana as a take on the Warlock's Wheel (Larry Niven), which implies that it articifially accelerates mana drain which might otherwise happen naturally (e.g. as wizards use up mana in the area). Thus, ancient civilizations might get Low or No Mana in pockets or places where wizards used to live.

Thanks for explaining the DF perspective on this.

-Max

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

I would think that you would notice the absence of a constant environmental requirement right away, unless you were greatly distracted (perhaps by an even more pressing danger).

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Just thought of another potential advantage to Pixies: is it the RAW or just GULLIVER that bases to-hit bonuses/penalties on *relative* SZ? I can't remember.

A pixie swashbuckler with a rapier and TA/eyes would be quite thuggish under the right circumstances.

-Max

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

You sound like the person who owns my FLGS. Admittedly, she ran a half-minotaur, half-troll, too, but...

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

That's what traps are for.

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Much of the goal of the Dependency is to force the player to act. "Eek! No mana! Run away!" is more effective than Mind Control in many ways. And the fact that the threat has real teeth if ignored also matters. If the safe is in a no-mana area where Lockmaster doesn't work, has a tough combination lock that requires an hour to open, and your only thief is a leprechaun . . . well, you can see the predicament. Ditto a no-mana area that switches on in a confining trap, which seems likely in a world where traps are meant to hold wizards. Remember that the GM doesn't have to be fair -- this is a genre where some adversarial plotting is admirable, and of course the player did get a buttload of points from the disad.

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I know it's a powerful and effective build, but I still can't take them seriously, no matter how good they are in melee.

Pixies, dude.

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Obviously the correct solution is to get the minotaur barbarian a chain long enough to tether him to the safe with him outside the NMZ, then you buff him until he glows in the dark and he drags it out to somewhere where the silly little faerie can do his stuff.

What?

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Obviously.
Total demolition is merely a continuation of lock-picking by other means.

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"Wottaya mean there's no dynamite?!" *grumble*

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That's the next step, or the correct choice if for some reason the traction method doesn't work. My minotaur, for example, deals out 7d+something wielding the Portable Ram all by himself. Doors are but a minor impediment and a noise making device.

The safe would be a bit trickier, but I think something could be done.

Fireballs are always appropriate, I suppose. Lacks the essential je-ne-sais-quois that smashing it with a sledgehammer hammer has, though.

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I've always wanted to visit Finland.

heh

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I don't know how Kromm and the rest of you guys feel about aspected magic in general, but one of the things I like to do is to vary up and down the magical aspect of certain areas.

So in a temple dedicated to a death goddess, which is being protected by undead and has been the site of numerous sacrifices, the aspect of the area might very well be +10 for Necromancy and -10 for all other magics, which would be the equivalent of a Very High Mana area for Necromancy and a No Mana area for everything else.

Meaning once they entered the temple the party's Nymph with dependency would be getting real sick because she couldn't process the necromantic energies, but the party's ghoul would be feeling on top of the world.

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Ze's approach is mine as well. I just kept it out of DF because aspecting can get complicated really quickly. But it's a good idea.

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It occurs to me that you want to be careful with the placement of NMZs, since once recognized, they're not only a hazard to those in the party with Mana Dependency, they're also an opportunity for anybody who may have picked up a cursed item...

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Curses aren't mana-dependant, they're driven usually by divine irritation.

This will let you ditch an item with Hex on it, but that's just magic.

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I was thinking of cursed magical items, of which there are presumably other types than Hex. The evil Soul Jared wizard in the ancient tome you picked up can't whisper in your mind while in the NMZ, either.

Of course, for divine curse, you need to find a No Sanctity Zone.

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Aha! Coleopterans have 4 arms and 1 Extra Attack. Aside from letting them throw 4 throwing hatchets in one turn using the Ranged Rapid Strike rules (at significant penalties, but it can be done), it lets them make up to five unarmed parries per turn before taking penalties (one per arm plus one low-line leg parry). Arguably they should be able to do the same thing with weapon parries, or to defend with a shield, a halberd, and a rapier simultaneously (Extra Attack shows they have the coordination to manage two weapons), which makes up at least a little bit for not being able to wear armor.

I knew those extra arms had to be good for something. :)

-Max

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2 Shields and a Two handed weapon, add multi strike to extra attack. You get something like a 270 degree arc for the DB. Buy your shield up really high and block away. Arguably, you should at least get a parry, a block, and as many dodges as you need, and if they aren't immediately behind you, you stand a pretty good chance of not needing DR above 5.

Edit: I'm actually playing this character now.

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

There is one really annoying thing about pixies... they require orichalcum weapons. With their 1/25 weight factor, normal weapons will snap the first time they try to parry anything at all. Combine that with the -6 damage bonus and their basic ST 5 (1d-4/1d-2 damage), and you might as well forget about ever buying "Faerie" weapons and resign yourself to a (0.1) armor divisor since it's not worth paying e.g. $12,000 for a tiny orichalcum smallsword that does th-5 i.e. 1d-9 damage. Take the $480 one that does 1d-9 (0.1), use it to parry, and attack only with spells and powers.

-Max

Edit: fixed cost and weight

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

Well, no, since as you pointed out they'll pretty much always shatter on a parry, even if you take pixie barbarian and boost your ST to 12.

Probably better to use Dodge as your main defense (after all, since they have at least a -6 to hit you due to SM, possibly more due to flight movement, you stand a good chance of not getting hit), and attack either with spells or with impaling attacks to the eyes (going melee with a spear or something is preferable for this, due to the +4 you get for relative SM). Of course, for the latter option, you need a barbarian or at least a knight for the boosted ST, to offset the -6 to damage. Of course, I'd probably limit those reductions to sw-2 or thr, since it doesn't make sense to me for pixies to do less damage (especially crushing) with weapons than with their fists. Unless Kromm chimes in to mention that the -6 is supposed to apply to unarmed damage as well...

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Ogres and warhammers are great!

I´ve played once with one deaf-mute half-ogre... He had IQ 7, but, man, how can you trick a deaf-mute pike monstruosity? It´s like telling a joke to The Hulk, as he screams "Puny Human!"

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

The $480 version is "mundane" (non-Faerie) but orichalcum, so it won't shatter. ($120 was an incorrect figure when I was using armor cost reductions in the place of weapon cost reduction.)

I agree that Dodge is usually going to be the defense to go for, unless you're playing a Pixie swashbuckler or something. It just... seems like a waste to have to buy these weapon skills and then have absolutely no use for them whatsoever.

DO you get a bonus for relative SZ in vanilla? I remembered something about that but couldn't find it in Basic's weapon to-hit modifier charts, so I decided it must be something from GULLIVER.

-Max

P.S. I agree that weapons that do less damage than fists are rubbish.

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More details on SM in combat are in the FAQ, I believe.

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Yeah - the FAQ provides, as an addendum rather than an erratum, that in melee you use relative SM, with a cap of +4 for attacking larger characters since you can't *reach* any further out than that. Of course, if you're going up against a hit location mod due to a smaller body part, such as the eye, I might be inclined to waive that cap entirely for such attacks.

Is the minimum 1 pt of impaling damage, doubled to 2, enough to blind the target in that eye?

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Has anyone written up TFT's Cidrian Octopi as a DF race? I'm thinking Wizard Scout, though Holy Warrior Swashbukcler has it's merits.

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Hmm,

Pixie Martial Artist/Barbarian - ST 8 DX 19 (+Power Blow)

Or

Pixie Barbarian/Martial Artist - ST 12 DX 16 (+Power Blow)

Some damage might actually be dealt here, and it won't suffer from the -6 weapon modifier.

"I's gonna punch yer eye out!"

Re: DF: The Best Races/Classes
 

I love aspecting. In many games, I simply assume that most areas have positive and negative aspects.