Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Neither is the case. RoF 16+ weapons lose 2 shots per hex, not one, and each target after the first has an extra +1 of recoil (cumulative). This might well be coarser than you like, but that's a different issue from GURPS not addressing it at all.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Hmmm. [re-reads Spraying Fire] You're right. I hadn't noticed the +1 recoil. Good catch.

-Max

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

IIRC the "have sex" skill is a M/H...Archaeology

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Well, I'm just not getting it. It's "erotic," it helps to be flexible, but according to you, it is not per se an improvement on sex technique. I'm guessing it's something impressive that is not especially useful. Perhaps there are an Erotic Sport skill and a practical Erotic skill that are used in different contexts.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I am quite familiar with Tantra. However, that is a religious rite, and being double-jointed does not help.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

It can't hurt. Double-jointed should help with yoga too, I'd imagine.

I'm having trouble discussing this without being too explicit for these boards but I'll try. Firstly, Erotic Art is "advanced sexual technique", that would imply it's not the sort of sexual performance that most people are familiar with. Kromm confirms this by saying it's not the "have sex skill". It definitely can't be required for the basic biological act of copulation otherwise there would be no sexual reproduction in animals at all. It can't even be the skill of ordinary everyday sexual performance by people who are trying to please their partners, because ordinary people do stuff they see in films, or read in books, or just imagine everyday without spending the hundreds of hours of study that Erotic Art would require.

It represents special sexual techniques, and is obviously cultural and setting specific. It's a skill that Mysteries of the Trade could be based on for Tantric Magic. It's a skill that the temple harlot of Ishtar might practice when she tames Edikudu out of the wilderness. It's not the skill of following the advice in Cosmo, or doing "that 'move' that Joe at work told you about".

Of course, IMO, YMMV. ect.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Though what stands for 'basic' knowledge, then?

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Well, extremely basic knowledge (of the TAB A into SLOT B sort), probably shouldn't require a roll at all. It's basically biology and instinct, isn't it?

For Cosmo/Maxim level sexual technique, I'd say an attribute roll (DX, IQ, or HT all make sense) would suffice if you are running a R or X rated game. Maybe a Hobby skill for slighty racy stuff (or a Professional skill for prostitutes and Performance for porn actors).

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Why not? Erotic Art has a default (DX-5), which is what you get from watching films, reading books or just imagining everyday without spending the hundreds of hours of study.

Someone whose background is “Raised by monks to be ultimate killing machine”, doesn’t get that default, because he never even saw a woman till the monks sent him out in to the world to kill things and take their stuff.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Maybe, but IMO, Erotic Art is "Opening the Eightfold Lotus of Infinite Pleasure" not "I'm aware of the concept of foreplay" or "I know where the clitoris is". The difference is greater than a mere default would indicate.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Where on earth did I say that?! I said it wasn't the "have sex" skill -- that is, it isn't some skill you need merely to engage in sex. It certainly is an improvement on sexual technique but, not to put too fine a point on it, much sexual technique has little to do with basic sex acts people can figure out on their own.

Having the Flexibility advantage helps here for reasons that anybody who has ever looked at the Kama Sutra or watched more, er, "artistic" porn should find self-evident. Unless you seriously believe that hanging from a swing to have sex, or folding feet behind head, make no demands on human flexibility. Beyond that, I'm not getting into details. This is a G-rated forum.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Nothing. The same way there's no Breathing skill, Eating skill, or Whizzing skill in GURPS. There's no need for a Shagging skill . . . it's among the most basic of operations, and everybody can do it. Erotic Art is to shagging as Breath Control is to breathing, Fire Eating is to eating, etc. It's a specialized and/or showy retasking of a basic bodily function.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Absolutely. And note that a default simply means that you can try some crazy stuff you saw in a movie or a book . . . not that you're any good at it. There's no implication that it's somehow tied to the basic sex acts that everybody with a functioning brain can figure out. The whole point is that Erotic Art covers the stuff that you'd never figure out by accident.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

And the thread suddenly veers to the left *eek*
heh
I think this covers it... props for the Gilgamesh reference *thumbup*

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

It's a skill that Mysteries of the Trade could be based on for Tantric Magic.

I guess. I would totally consider Tantra to be a Meditation Technique, however. And being double-jointed does not help in any significant way of which I am aware. Consider that most practitioners of sexual Tantric practices are middle-aged monks and nuns.

I was under the impression Erotic Art was mainly a skill for specialized prostitutes, but if the official word is that it's for bedroom trapeze acts, then I'll withdraw my suggestion that it goes with Sex Appeal.

And now for something completely different.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Erotic Art has nothing to do with Sex Appeal. It's specifically the skill of using any number of your body parts on any number of body parts of one or more other people to produce sexual pleasure. Sex Appeal is the skill of maximizing your physical attractiveness to distract in order to get your own way. They differ about as much as Karate and Intimidation, and in many of the same ways.

As for more cerebral sexual arts . . . nothing says that there isn't a Philosophy (Tantra) skill with applications.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

It's specifically the skill of using any number of your body parts on any number of body parts of one or more other people to produce sexual pleasure.

Are you sure you're not talking in circles here? Because that does sound like the skill of having sex.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I think it's clear that I used "have sex" to mean least-common-denominator sex, like "walk" means walk instead of watusi.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I don't get it. If Erotic Art is what Karate is to DX-punching, then what is the erotic equivalent of Brawling, the middle ground between Karate and DX?

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

he already answered that one. There isn't, just like there not a Skill For Walking, but there is a Skill for Hiking.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

There's a danger to stretching an analogy too far. But honestly, I still think Sex Appeal fits in the middle ground. It's the practised skill of how to get someone interested.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Well, I wasn't imagining a "have sex check." I was just trying to relate this to my original postulation that a deific level of Sex Appeal seems incompatible with the ability to engage only in LCD sex. My hypothesis was that being that sexy implied something a little more essential than wearing a cocktail dress.

Just as I have trouble envisioning a Fast-Draw 30 skill unconnected with any basic ability to handle a blade, I have trouble picturing Sex Appeal-30 without some basic ability to, er, handle things in bed with a modicum of grace, responsiveness, and knowledge.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Back on original topic:

What mechanics in GURPS cause a desire for skills above 26?

Combat:
Deceptive Attack
Rapid Fire
Rapid strike
Feints
Range Penalties
Stacking action modifiers (TA's, etc)
Stacking situational modifiers

General:
Quick Contests
Stacking action modifiers
Stacking situational modifiers

Do some skill categories have more reasons then others to make buying absurd skill levels interesting? Social/Influence vs Knowledges vs Professional vs Physical Actions vs Technical, etc.

I like more and more the idea of techniques to target specific extreme situations. However, how does the point expenditure compare to the brute force method of having a skill high enough to suck up enough penalties to pull off desired effects? Stricter CP budgets self compensate for extreme skill levels vs techniques vs not in scope of game issues. But some campaigns can have 4 digit CP characters.


In 2000 pt cinematic supers game, the Bruklin Brawler (with TBAM/WM-brawlin) could dump a hunk of points (say 400 cp = DX+101) into Brawling. Without a Rapid Strike cap, he could take a -50 on his 51 attack s and have 50 extra attacks with skill left over for deceptive attacks, TA's, etc. Would a 400 cp investment by another PC in a non combat skill possibly have as spectacular results (with similar amount of enhancing advantages to be fair: 50 pts~)?

Please return to original topic. Please? :D

~Z

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

It's not quite as bad as all that -after all, even with TBAM or WM, the penalty for Rapid Strike only goes down to -3. Combining the two doesn't get you the same -1 that you might get from combining WM and fencing weapons, either, AFAIK.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

You left out MAGIC@! It should be on both the combat and general list. The higher the skill level with the spell; A- the less it costs until cost reaches zero B- the less time it takes to cast until casting time reaches zero. So the motivation is there to get one or both to zero...

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

This is interesting. The first thing that comes to mind here is that, just like you get an Intimidation bonus with anyone who's seen you demolish somebody in combat (even if your Intimidation skill is not otherwise high), you ought to get a Sex Appeal bonus with anybody who's experienced your Erotic Art. I'm picturing hatchet-faced women who "inexplicably" have middle-aged millionaires wrapped around their little fingers.

-Max

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I'm sure it does. For a woman, it implies knowing when to touch a man's arm, when to sit a little too close to him (without setting off alarm bells), when to get up and wander away as if you hadn't noticed he was there, when to meet his eyes, when to look away, how to know if he's paying attention to you and choose your timing...

It's like Fast Talk, only directed at another brain.

Edit: perhaps the thing that's confusing people is that it's listed as a HT-based skill and not an IQ-based one. Perhaps that's because basic attractiveness (which consists mainly of "a good constitution and a cheerful disposition") is a prerequisite to using these techniques effectively. In practice, the skill probably floats between IQ, HT, and 10 + Attractiveness.

-Max

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

That is true. I haven't delved much into my Magic or Fantasy books yet. Basic Set + Powers with MA and Ultra-tech thown in to complicate it have monopolized my attention buffer. Magic is an oddball case.

My question still stands: Can you get effect improvements from other general skills (cooking faster/better, running further/faster/with less fatique, etc) that combat/magic see from super high skill levels.

~Z

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I'll limit my derailment to this collective reply. :)

Why does there have to be a middle ground? I'm saying there isn't a middle ground here, that's all. It's hardly the case that every possible activity covered by skills is spanned by a skill spectrum of the same dimension.

Absolutely. I think that in general, if you've used a practical skill to impress people, you can probably use an Influence skill on those people more easily later on, provided the two skills line up moderately well. Combat skills + Intimidation is an obvious pairing, but I'd assume that Erotic Art + Sex Appeal is just as valid.

Definitely. Sex Appeal is mind games. Even at level 30, it's mind games. And level 30 can be really useful when the GM is applying -10 for the middle of combat with a mortal enemy, -5 because it's a moonlit night and your mark can barely see you, and rolling it as a Quick Contest vs. the target's Will, which happens to be rather good. But it doesn't degenerate into crude sex acts at any skill level. It's always how to dress, smile, stand, talk, touch, walk, etc. Just like Intimidation doesn't by itself involve violence. As noted above, both would certainly benefit from physical backup, but that's another skill no matter how good you get. That's why p. B172 strongly recommends branching out into "subsidiary" skills after you reach level 20-25.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I may be dating myself (no crude comments, please) but:

"Wouldn't they sprain themselves?" -- Mary Hartman, of Mary Hartman Mary Hartman

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

There's no middle ground between Acrobatics and DX either, I don't see your point.

Personally for my games, I tend to assume that the average unskilled person knows intimately IQ-5 ways of giving pleasure and can actually pull off DX-5 of them. To go beyond that they need actual skill, and if they so choose, a successful roll against skill can leave their leave their partner trembling and unable to walk at will, or begging for more. YMMV

Though most of my players don't usually want to go that far into detailed sex, in fact over the years their preference tends to be of the fade to black variety. Just as well, keeps my games often in a not quite R level and out of the X level.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

My game sessions generally aren't fit for podcast, but not so much due to explicit descriptions of actual acts as due to the nature of the encounters in the first place. Let's just say that at some point I found myself answering a serious question about allowing the extended Rapid Strike rules for Trained by a Master to work with Erotic Art, and thought, "We all know how Master trained you . . .". :P

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Of course, if you have enough points to spend, you can do both. Branch out into other skills and keep improving your primary skill. And of course, your Broadsword-50 does no good at all when you're escaping from the Orcish prison camp and the only weapon you can get is a wood ax.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Nya! Not only does Dr. Kromm have a personal version of GURPS Hentai rules, but now we know that they are intertwined with Martial Arts! Could you tell the whole story of that session/situation/etc.?

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Sure it does. Break off the blade and use it as a Light Club, which gives you your full Broadsword skill.

I agree that backup skills are nice, but it seems smarter to be really good with one weapon and decent with a couple more than to be quite good with seven or eight. Of course being insanely good with *all* of them is best, but that's not point-efficient and unlikely unless you're Benedict of Amber and ten thousand years old...

-Max

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Who should be built with wild card skills.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Erotic Sport puts the play in foreplay?

Otherwise, let's be blunt. If you need a middle ground, make one up. By and large, the precision in GURPS combat skills is because there are differences that enough people want to model that matter.

Most weapon skills, for example, are either "Default to DX" or "Full-on skill," with no "easier" intermediate step (although some related skills share defaults). The open-hand combat skills are somewhat unique in this regard (with THREE flavors each for striking/grappling) and this has caused no small degree of angst in and of itself...by you as much as others...in being perhaps TOO finely graded.

So in the "gettin' it on" in the non-fightin' sense front, you've got "doing the best with what you've got," and "advanced nookie-fu." Much like you've got "swing a short-sword wildly at the bad guy" [DX default] and "study the swinging of the sword" [shortsword skill]. Finer gradations are, and should, be left to the reader for campaign specific details.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

From that point of view, it would seem to be a decent candiate for a PER base (perhaps even modified by Charisma and empathic style advantages), since noticing other's cues and responding accordingly matters.

Or perhaps unconscious use of the skill is HT (cause that's innate) while it floats to Per for active style use.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

<shakes head sadly>

I hope Ed the Coastie's daughter doesn't catch you at that...

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Eh? Has he even posted in this thread? I'm afraid I don't understand the joke.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

It's a reference to a thread in Chatter:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=37029

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I read the thread and still don't get it. I was expecting a reference to Ed the Coastie's daughter beating up boys who kiss girls, or something.

-Max

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I think we are supposed to be on our best behavior, now that there is teenager on the premises. Why this didn't apply in the past, since there were (likely) always teenagers here, I couldn't tell you.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

In general, many people wouldn't want to be caught in the act of "advanced nookie-fu" by a snooping teenager.

The comment is actually funny on its base, no other context is needed.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

It applied then, too :|

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Thanks Z I would have explained myself but I was off grocery shopping (pesky eating). That was more or less the joke in a nutshell.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

Going back to the original topic: how would you stat Brainiac 5's "12th Level Intellect" super power? Given that normal humans are only supposed to be "6th level" which would mean IQ 10 in GURPS, and assuming a normal scale of progression, he would have IQ 20... very impressive, but STILL not quite superhuman. We could assume that 6th-Level means the full human IQ scale, i.e. up to 20th, which would make his IQ 40- now THAT sounds like a superpower! Though the "Super Attribute" option (from GURPS Supers) would be needed to override the Rule of 20, or he would still not get defaults over 20.

Of course, the scale might be logarithmic or something else, in which case I can't begin to think what his IQ score would be...

Or IS his power a superhigh IQ? One thing about "Brainy" has always been that he's not been terribly smart, committing errors of judgment several times (Overconfidence disadvantage?) Perhaps it would be better to give him mental advantages like Gadgeteering instead... though he DID once resist Universo's mind control power (which affected even Superboy!) That could've been a IQ-based will roll, or then again, Mental Strenght skill.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

High IQ is definitely one of his powers... Gadgeteer belongs also, Eidetic Memory... maybe more computer-like ads... not sure.Yeah... Universo's first appearance in Adventure, I think. AIR, Braniac was able to avoid succumbing to the super-hypnosis by retreating through successive levels of his intellect... which always made me think of levels of Compartmentalized Mind.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I'm most familiar with the post-Zero Hour Reboot Brainiac 5, so that's the one I'm referencing.

Brainy in that incarnation of the Legion had a genius-level IQ, somewhere I'd place in the 16-20 range, but his real "power" in that incarnation was his Compartmentalized Mind, implied to be 12 "compartments". When a criminal telepath entered his mind, his subconscious was calmer than his conscious trains of thought. He could literally think about 12 projects at once.

Before his "upgrade", he also had an Odious Personal Habit of arrogance regarding his own intellect, bordering on Megalomania, feeling superior to all the other Legionnaires, particularly his scientific rival, Lyle Norg/Invisible Kid.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

[QUOTE=Sijo]No reason for that. Brainy's really good at sciences and engineering, things he's actually studied, but he isn't that good at social skills and I doubt he'd be a great artist.

A high IQ doesn't keep you from making errors of judgement of course. He obviously doesn't have Common Sense.

Even so I'd probably make him IQ 20 and pile on advantages like Lightning Calculator, Gadgeteer, Enhanced Time Sense, Compartmentalised Mind, Absolute Timing, 3D Spatial Sense...

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

How is that better than being caught by an adult or an Old One? At least the teen will react with more interest and less critique. It is an old saying that one cannot engage in sex on the main square, because one will get too many comments and recommendations and tips and 'you are doing it wrong's.

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 

I'm not that familiar with that version myself, so I didn't know about that. That explanation certainly seems to fit the Compartmentalized Mind advantage, and as Shrubbery said, it might have helped him resist Universo's control. Not to mention that he's gone insane at least once, so one of those extra minds might have mental disadvantages. Yes, it does sound best to give Brainy a high IQ (but not SUPER high) and simulate his other abilities with mental advantages.