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-   -   Absurdly high skill levels (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=36920)

JAW 02-29-2008 10:45 PM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sjmdw45
Rifle accuracy is odd anyway. My understanding is that, in real life, it's almost impossible to hit someone from 3 miles away, but in GURPS that is only an extra -4 relative to the 1000-yard shot. I.e. if you can hit someone 50% of the time at 1000 yards, you can hit them 10% of the time at 3 miles. As I understand it, that's very unlikely in real life because more factors come into play at extreme range: the bullet tumbles differently, you have to factor in gravity, you have to account for different wind for all the points between you and your target. (That is, in real life, difficulty is not log-linear with distance as it is in GURPS. It's log-quadratic or something.)

If you really wanted to simulate this correctly, you'd probably have Accuracy vary as a complex formula depending on bullet weight, distance to target, and environment. Failing that, set the "max" range for a rifle lower than its "real" max range and just say that it maxes out at 1000 yards for man-sized targets, and exceeding that requires special rules and circumstances.

-Max

Well if the bullet starts tumbling randomly in the air you clued said that the shot exceeded the maximum accurate range of the gun (wich is stat lacking from GURPS..) and the skill becomes quite irrelevant. With a laser rifle or such one could fire accurately 3 miles avay with really steydy hand etc.. Winds and such could be a situational penalty - and one could use a different skills or percpetion roll to notice them..

Guns could ahve maximu accuracy - ie if you have a smoothbore that may randomy shoot soem fractions of a degree of from where you're poimtimg any amount of skill could not make it mopre accurate - so you point it right at the target - it can still miss if the range is long enough and the target is small enough.. Higher skill cna still allow shorter aiming time and other situational penalties to get to that max accuracy (ie max accurac would be applied before range and size penalties but after anything else..)

Captain-Captain 02-29-2008 10:46 PM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
Then of course, there ae the skill levles of players who write themselves up as GURPS characters. While there are some honest examples of this, MOST of the estimates players give themselves are inflated to extremes.

Taellosse 02-29-2008 10:56 PM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain
Depends. The Lone Ranger shoots the triggers off'n the pistols of three bandits afore they kin clear their guns out of their holsters. We give him your 25 maximum and Gunslinger so he gets the +2 Acc of his .45 without having to aim. Ok, he has silver bullets which by the legend if not actual fact shoot straighter. Another plus 2.

He makes his fast draw roll. Bang! Bang! Bang!

RoF = ~3 range penalty is -6, Recoil is 4 Size modifier is about -7 and that's generous. He's starting out with an effective skill of 14- with a 4 Recoil. Not looking good for the home team. He really needs a higher skill than 25 to fit into the shooting skills reputedly possessed by the Lone Ranger.

Yeah, and a character like the Lone Ranger would actually qualify for my "exceptional circumstances" stipulation--he lives his life doing basically nothing but riding and shooting, so I can reasonably see him putting in a higher skill in Guns (Pistol) than 25. But he's utterly dedicated to that skill--he uses it constantly, to the exclusion of almost everything else.

Although I still maintain that it'd make more sense for him to take a few techniques that are based off of Guns instead. Cuz you better believe he's practiced shooting tiny targets at a distance from the hip for ages to be able to do that reliably.

sjmdw45 02-29-2008 11:00 PM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain
Depends. The Lone Ranger shoots the triggers off'n the pistols of three bandits afore they kin clear their guns out of their holsters. We give him your 25 maximum and Gunslinger so he gets the +2 Acc of his .45 without having to aim. Ok, he has silver bullets which by the legend if not actual fact shoot straighter. Another plus 2.

He makes his fast draw roll. Bang! Bang! Bang!

RoF = ~3 range penalty is -6, Recoil is 4 Size modifier is about -7 and that's generous. He's starting out with an effective skill of 14- with a 4 Recoil. Not looking good for the home team. He really needs a higher skill than 25 to fit into the shooting skills reputedly possessed by the Lone Ranger.

Recoil doesn't matter unless you're auto-firing. He could do the job with skill 25 and Rapid Strike/Ranged x3 bought up from -12 to +0 (as High-Tech allows). If he does the trigger thing frequently he might buy that up from -7 to -4 using some kind of TA(Pistol/Trigger) equivalent.

Trying to measure skill from a single feat is tricky, because it could be a technique. You'd probably want to consider three or four different feats in order to establish overall skill level.

-Max

sjmdw45 02-29-2008 11:06 PM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain
Then of course, there ae the skill levles of players who write themselves up as GURPS characters. While there are some honest examples of this, MOST of the estimates players give themselves are inflated to extremes.

You know, we spend years and years in grades K-12. I wonder whether we get any points in skills from that, or whether it's just a waste of time. If we get skill points, what skills is that in?

Gaming (playground) [2] - 11 (for DX 9)
optional: tetherball specialization
Basic, basic mathematics [4] - 13 (for IQ 11)
For those of us who come out of high school knowing how to do fractions, solve algebraic equations, and/or define a limit in terms of epsilon/delta. You could argue that this is just Mathematics, and that for some people it just doesn't take (wasted points)
Current Affairs?
History?

I betcha most of the time you spend in school is wasted points.

-Max

transmetahuman 02-29-2008 11:15 PM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
The description of Erotic Art ("advanced" sexual technique) doesn't have to refer to one's ability to give a partner a pleasurable intimate time, but it doesn't preclude that interpretation either. Many of us are probably remembering it from 3e, where the more complete description included "Currently, this skill is only known in certain Eastern cultures, most notably among followers of Tantric Hinduism". In 3e, Erotic Art was definitely Karate to, say, my own skill-in-the-sack's Brawling. In 4e, it hasn't been addressed. Though, with Erotic Art defaulting to DX-5, it's hard to see how the species could have survived this long if that was what people rolled against for a satisfying time... And don't even try to say that it normally gets any "use under stress-free conditions" mods, at least the first few times with a given partner. :p

Sex Appeal has even less to do with it - by its effects, it could basically be renamed Flirting.

Ze'Manel Cunha 03-01-2008 12:16 AM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding
While seduction is a fairly universal concept, trained erotic performance was largely non existent in western culture.

That's really doing a disservice to Western culture, not only has erotic performance long been lauded, but there's a reason why prostitution is called the oldest profession, don't go confusing Victorian prudishness and anglo ineptness with real Western Culture. ;p

Then again, I've also had issues with random people derailing some threads just because some get it crosswise that I like giving that skill to my NPCs.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=5020

sir_pudding 03-01-2008 12:37 AM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha
That's really doing a disservice to Western culture, not only has erotic performance long been lauded, but there's a reason why prostitution is called the oldest profession, don't go confusing Victorian prudishness and anglo ineptness with real Western Culture. ;p

Point taken, and there is always Tannhauser. I just meant there is a lot of media that has seduction that is never consummated on screen.

Rupert 03-01-2008 01:34 AM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JAW
Well if the bullet starts tumbling randomly in the air you clued said that the shot exceeded the maximum accurate range of the gun (wich is stat lacking from GURPS..) and the skill becomes quite irrelevant. With a laser rifle or such one could fire accurately 3 miles avay with really steydy hand etc.. Winds and such could be a situational penalty - and one could use a different skills or percpetion roll to notice them..

Of course first you need to spot the target...

As for the bullets tumbling at range - that's very rare, and only occurs with loads where the bullet is marginally stable to start with, which makes them unlikely to be highly accurate at any range. It is true that flat based bullets (as contrasted with 'boattail' or 'streamlined' bullets) tend to experience an unpredictable change in trajectory as they drop to subsonic velocities, but that's why for long range shooting you use boattails.

Quote:

Guns could ahve maximu accuracy - ie if you have a smoothbore that may randomy shoot soem fractions of a degree of from where you're poimtimg any amount of skill could not make it mopre accurate - so you point it right at the target - it can still miss if the range is long enough and the target is small enough.. Higher skill cna still allow shorter aiming time and other situational penalties to get to that max accuracy (ie max accurac would be applied before range and size penalties but after anything else..)
Doug Cole has posted on such a notion in the past on these forums, including some numbers, if you want to search.

Rupert 03-01-2008 01:36 AM

Re: Absurdly high skill levels
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sjmdw45
Recoil doesn't matter unless you're auto-firing. He could do the job with skill 25 and Rapid Strike/Ranged x3 bought up from -12 to +0 (as High-Tech allows). If he does the trigger thing frequently he might buy that up from -7 to -4 using some kind of TA(Pistol/Trigger) equivalent.

The Rapid Fire rules apply whenever you fire more than one shot per turn from a firearm (or similar).


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