Originally Posted by blacksmith

If you are thinking about running a DF game, are you planning on useing templates?

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Oh I am not arguing against templates, I think that they are useful at least at giving good ideas what to think about, but I can not imagine using them rigidly.

Originally Posted by Kromm

My reasons were pretty simple (feel free to share them):

1. Wildcards only exist by reference to other skills and don't actually save you having to look stuff up; they just save space on the character sheet. In fact, because you have to do two steps -- look up what skills the wildcard covers and then look up each skill you're using -- wildcards are actually more page-flippy than ordinary skills. I didn't feel that cleaner character sheets were worth that steep price. (And yes, I could have described all the tasks in little essays for each wildcard so as to avoid the secondary lookups, but those would either have been too long and detailed for a brief PDF or so devoid of modifiers and details that the first half of DF 2 wouldn't have been worthwhile.)

2. Wildcards are big chunks and broad strokes. Frankly, if casters get to be defined by all kinds of funky little spells and powers, and ditto bards and martial artists with their keen special skills, then it's only fair for thieves and warriors to have similar room to customize and focus. While I didn't want to go whole hog with freeform point-build, the charm of GURPS is that it doesn't thrust a narrow class definition upon you. The way I did things, you can have a whole party of thieves, one focusing on doors and locks, another on acrobatics and cat burglary, a third on backstabbing and assassinating, etc. And to be blunt, that's what it takes to compete with all the feats and skills in That Other Game.

3. DF is in a way an entry point to GURPS, and wildcards don't teach GURPS. They're not a simplified concept but an advanced one. I don't think they're the best first exposure to the game.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

If you are thinking about running a DF game, are you planning on useing templates?

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

The concept of extreme niche protection is perfect for the genre, so I'd enforce the rule that you must use the template as written (...)

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Honestly, to me, the templates are DF. The concept of extreme niche protection is perfect for the genre, so I'd enforce the rule that you must use the template as written, and can only spend the 5 points from your Quirks on any (appropriate) skills you want. So sure, Mr. Barbarian can learn Pickpocket if he really wants, but he isn't sinking 8 points into it. If it's that important, he can multi-clas... er, I mean, use a template lens from DF3. :)

Haven't run it yet -- though I'd like to.

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

They're pretty good templates for any relatively high powered heroic game.

Originally Posted by GURPS Basic Set: Campaigns (pg 487)

Larger-than-Life (200 -300 points): [...] Typical of the professional adventurer who has already made a name for themselves.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

He has to there is no advancement lenses(levels) to stay with in a class.

Originally Posted by Bruno

uh, no, those aren't Levels and aren't synonymous with Levels. Those are lenses. You don't use those lenses to advance your character within your class - yes, there's no lense for "Barbarian/Barbarian" because that would be kind of dumb. You use the original template as a shopping list for more abilities, and the advancement chapter (that is ALSO in DF3) for "high level" abilities to layer on that aren't on the original template.

Have you read that section yet?

Originally Posted by blacksmith

The point is then that how do you determine what is within a class for advancement. It was with the whole ridgid template that Pee Kitty was talking about that got me, how do you do advancement?

Originally Posted by dravenloft

"[R]elatively high powered"?

Originally Posted by dravenloft

1) The stuff within that class' template that you didn't take.
2) advancing the things you did take.
3) other stuff that you think sounds neat that your character has an excuse to have figured out how to do.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Now that is not very ridgid.

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

I use templates as a starting point, not the whole character. So, relative to most of my starting campaigns, 300-500 points is high powered.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

The point is then that how do you determine what is within a class for advancement. It was with the whole ridgid template that Pee Kitty was talking about that got me, how do you do advancement?

Originally Posted by dravenloft

Oh. Sorry. I just see 150+ called "high powered" and other such things so often out of some notion that the game is centred on a 25 or 50 point level that I took it to be referring to that and finally just had to ask.

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

A template includes about 300-400 points' worth of stuff on it, of which you only take 250! That's 50-150 points' worth of advancement right there. Also, you can raise your attributes and raise the basic skills associated with your template, for unlimited advancement.

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Also, DF3 has another chapter called "Power-Ups". Those are specific new abilities available to each template. Personally, I think if I ever ran a DF game, I'd give everyone 275-300 points, allow Mixing Professions, but then restrict Power-Ups to those who didn't multiclass.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

The problem is many of those advancements are branching out not increasing in power.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

And those suggestions are not really in the format of a template.

Originally Posted by Bruno

... how is raising your attributes, levelled advantages, and skills, not increasing in power?

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Ah but you can only get so many of those, while you then start adding in things like axe mace for a sword fighter and so on.

Originally Posted by dravenloft

No you just keep raising sword skill. Or skill with another type of sword.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

And your whole point is that you where disallowing multiclassing.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

But that is not in the template as an option. So if you are ONLY buying things in the template it is not available.

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

(And note that statements such as "Choose one of the following four weapons" are intended for initial character creation only and that yes, if you were to go back and buy the other three weapons later on, you would most definitely be buying "things in the template".)

Originally Posted by blacksmith

And as you talked about buying the whole package you would be buying the other weapons, not buying up the weapons you used.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

And I don't claim that DF states that this is the way it should be done, I am saying that the templates can not be as rigidly enforced as you are suggesting. For example you are limiting disads to what is on the templates as well.

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Still waiting for that page reference . . .

Originally Posted by blacksmith

My point was that charcters tend to specialize and limiting character to filling out their template does not generaly make them much more powerful

It would also be interesting to see what of the selected disads listed as allowable are actualy purchaseable by PC's because they appear on templates.

Originally Posted by dravenloft

So, you don't add anything else from the template, you just increase those skills/advantages you bought with the template. Buy off disadvantages that came with the template. Boost stats.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

And that is not what was referenced. The orrigional thing referenced was buying options from the template that you did not at character creation.

Originally Posted by dravenloft

Ok... let see if I understand you.
You want to create characters and advance them using templates.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

I started wondering how people would use tempates in their games, and then objected strongly to certain of the suggested ways.

Originally Posted by blacksmith

No I don't want to, I am wondering if others do. Some have talked about useing templates in a very ridgid maner, and specificaly referenced useing purchasing other choices as the main source of allowable advancement as most of the templates have several hundreds of points in options.



No I am against people using tempates to limit character advancement, espeicialy how rigid some seem to suggest useing them.

I started wondering how people would use tempates in their games, and then objected strongly to certain of the suggested ways.

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Ah, so when we use templates in DF to emulate that other game we are having bad/wrong/fun. Got it.

Originally Posted by dravenloft

I happen to like the templates, and for a pure beer & pretzels hack & slash DF game would use them as written (so would my GM I presume... right Z?).

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Wait what other game makes fighters branch out into new weapons instead of advancing in their current weapon?

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Wait what other game makes fighters branch out into new weapons instead of advancing in their current weapon?

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Wait what other game makes fighters branch out into new weapons instead of advancing in their current weapon?

The only one that comes to mind is providence that made you learn related skills at lower levels to advance a main skill.

Originally Posted by ziresta

They don't have to. Read the bit about Skills and Spells on page 43 of DF3. While I would certainly not recommend it, if a player really wanted to they could just keep putting points into the same weapon until the GM cried "Enough!" If the GM ever did.

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Honestly, to me, the templates are DF. The concept of extreme niche protection is perfect for the genre, so I'd enforce the rule that you must use the template as written, and can only spend the 5 points from your Quirks on any (appropriate) skills you want. So sure, Mr. Barbarian can learn Pickpocket if he really wants, but he isn't sinking 8 points into it. If it's that important, he can multi-clas... er, I mean, use a template lens from DF3. :)