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mook 02-20-2008 01:42 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bearded One
The first one (with full color boxes) looks prettier, but the second will be easier to print for most folks.

A quick little tweak to the CSS, and now what used to be colored boxes are black borders - I think this is much more legible?

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/pdftest03.pdf

The Bearded One 02-20-2008 04:04 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
PDF test 3 looks fantastic IMHO.

On another topic, I haven't gotten very far through my own 2:2 combat example, but it already looks like the humans are going to get their asses royally handed to them. Should I tone down the zombies so it'll be a longer, closer combat? Or should I let it stand and provide an example of when to run away (similar to your Ranged Cbt #3)?

-- The Bearded One

DouglasCole 02-20-2008 04:37 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bearded One
PDF test 3 looks fantastic IMHO.

On another topic, I haven't gotten very far through my own 2:2 combat example, but it already looks like the humans are going to get their asses royally handed to them. Should I tone down the zombies so it'll be a longer, closer combat? Or should I let it stand and provide an example of when to run away (similar to your Ranged Cbt #3)?

-- The Bearded One

First post it as-is, let people suggest different tactics that might change the odds, and then let it stand. Sometimes the Zombies win...

mook 02-20-2008 07:35 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole
Sometimes the Zombies win...

There's something oddly profound about that. :)

Since no one has chimed in yet to say "OMG, that PDF makes my eyes hemorrhage!", I'll assume it's okay - should have PDFs ready for the 11 current examples by this weekend-ish.

Daverius 02-21-2008 12:57 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
Thanks for that Daverius, but that one's actually correct - according to B377, "If [your attacker] has multiple attacks (e.g., from ... All-Out Attack ...), your retreat does not put you beyond the reach of his remaining attacks. However, you get your retreating bonus on all active defense rolls against all of his attacks until your next turn."

Had to look it up to be sure though - point out possible errors any time!

Also, I was inadvertently still giving Arthur his rifle's Accuracy bonus on rounds he wasn't Aiming in Ranged Example Four ... that's been fixed.

Good call. Sorry about that. BTW your website is really cool.

griffin 02-21-2008 06:43 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
Howdy Folks -

Dismayed by the lack of full GURPS 4th edition combat examples, I've started a little project of my own to fill the niche, for the benefit of myself and others. The more feedback and corrections I can get the better, so feel free to look 'em over and point out the mistakes I've made (of which I'm sure there are plenty) - it would be much appreciated.

Suggestions as well as corrections welcome - the page is at:

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples


Thanks!

This is a great idea. I'd be most interested in cinematic combat examples. Whenever GURPS Action! gets written, I'd like to see it contain a few good cinematic combat examples - one fantasy, one modern/supernatural, and at least one SF.

mook 02-21-2008 01:31 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daverius
Good call. Sorry about that. BTW your website is really cool.

Thanks for saying so, glad you like it - no 'sorry' needed, I'd rather have folks err on the side of pointing out something they think is wrong and being mistaken than not mentioning something because they don't want to be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffin
This is a great idea. I'd be most interested in cinematic combat examples. Whenever GURPS Action! gets written, I'd like to see it contain a few good cinematic combat examples - one fantasy, one modern/supernatural, and at least one SF.

The scope of the examples will, at a glacial pace, be expanding - I think the most basic mundane situations are ... well, certainly not "covered", but at least solidly begun so that I can start adding some new situations.

The Bearded One 02-24-2008 02:13 AM

2:2 GURPS 4e cbt w/Magic
 
My example is finally finished and emailed to themook. The humans were just in over their heads, and the mage was slower than I thought he'd be. Unless a spell is at skill 20+, there is still one full second of concentration to prep and the next action to "fire" the spell.

IE: Mage turn one, Concentrate to prep spell.
Mage turn two, Concentrate to spend FP and make the roll for spell success.
Mage turn three, Concentrate on prep for next spell.
Mage turn four, Concentrate, spend FP, roll.
Repeat for all non-Blocking spells.

Did I get this wrong? That's how I read the first two paragraphs of pM7.

-- The Bearded One

mlangsdorf 02-24-2008 08:16 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Check the last paragraph on p7, "Time Required"

You roll for the spell at the end of the active part of your turn. A 1 second spell takes 1 second to cast.

So if the wizard wants to set everything on fire, the sequence is:

Turn 1: Concentrate on Create Fire. Roll dice, spend fatigue. Things are on fire.
Turn 2: Concentrate on Fireball. Decide to make it big.
Turn 3: Concentrate on Fireball. Roll dice, spend fatigue.
Turn 4: Aim fireball.
Turn 5: Throw fireball.

An enemy archer cannot disrupt the casting of Create Fire without taking a Wait maneuver. He can disrupt the Fireball by attacking in between the wizard's Turn 2 and Turn 3, and spoil the wizard's aim by attacking in between the wizard's Turn 4 and Turn 5.

The Bearded One 02-24-2008 11:51 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf
Check the last paragraph on p7, "Time Required"
Turn 1: Concentrate on Create Fire. Roll dice, spend fatigue. Things are on fire.

Cr@p on a stick! Somehow I missed that last paragraph. I'll have to redo the magic part of the example completely since I treated 1 second spells as if they took 2 seconds each. No wonder that mage seemed incompetant.

-- The Bearded One

Witchking 02-24-2008 08:31 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bearded One
Cr@p on a stick! Somehow I missed that last paragraph. I'll have to redo the magic part of the example completely since I treated 1 second spells as if they took 2 seconds each. No wonder that mage seemed incompetant.

-- The Bearded One

Also keep in mind that as long as the mage is not directly engaged in combat prep time of 1-2 seconds per spell is a minimal liability, IME...

The Bearded One 02-24-2008 09:54 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchking
Also keep in mind that as long as the mage is not directly engaged in combat prep time of 1-2 seconds per spell is a minimal liability, IME...

No, taking 2 seconds to cast a one-second spell is devastatingly slow in combat. Remember, this is one fighter and one mage versus two zombies. The first time through, the humans got their asses thoroughly kicked by turn five or so. I'll redo everything with the spell casting corrected and see if that makes any difference

Probably the humans will just figure out that they're in over their heads and flee.

-- The Bearded One

mook 02-24-2008 10:44 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Hiya The Bearded One -

Haven't looked at the example you emailed (since you're redoing it anyway), but it would save me some time if you could arrange the numbers so one side or the other is defeated (either unconscious or dead) like the other examples.

In an actual game a smart character will run away, but that doesn't help the examples much. :)

The Bearded One 02-24-2008 10:54 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
<gasp!> Do you mean for me to fudge die rolls? But that is strictly against the GM code! <wink wink>

-- The Bearded One

mook 02-25-2008 12:33 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
I won't tell if you won't. : )

mook 02-25-2008 01:48 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
I have completed PDFs for all 11 current examples - they can be downloaded individually from each example's page, or downloaded together in a single .zip file here:

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples-download

Please let me know if you notice any glaring problems with the PDFs, I'll do my best to correct.

Smirg 02-25-2008 07:22 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
In the new ranged combat example, when Zach gets hit the second time, you wrote that his Dodge goes down to 5 as it is Basic Move + 3. This isn't correct, it's actually Basic Speed (rounded down) +3 (otherwise it would be too cheap to buy up). So Basic Move changes don't affect it.

On the other hand, as Zach is below 1/3 HP, his Dodge is halved (to 4) and his Move is halved too (so down to 1).

Can't give the page reference to these, however, I'm at work now. But the first is in the dark red section at the beginning of Characters where attributes are listed (under secondary attributes, obviously) and the latter is in the light green injury section in Campaigns (under the heading "effects of injury" iirc). Don't know whether it appears in the shortened combat descriptions at the end of Characters too.


Edit: When Zach dodges next, his Dodge should therefore be down to 3. 4 for being below 1/3 HP, +2 for Feverish Defense, -3 for prone.
I believe that means that without Feverish Defense, he couldn't dodge at all (effective skill < 3), but there might be exceptions for combat (I think you can always defend on a 3), so better look that up. Should be either under defenses or at the summary of critical successes.

Mercator 02-25-2008 07:49 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
In Ranged Four, Turn Four: When Zach is hit, his HP fall from 10 to 3. This is a Major Wound, so he should roll for Knockdown and Stunning. Also, he drops below 1/3 HP, so his Move and Dodge are halved.

Cheers,
M.

Hai-Etlik 02-25-2008 12:14 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Not all combat ends in death/incapacitation. Having at least a few examples reflect this is probably a good idea.

Amedeo 02-25-2008 01:30 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Hi all,
this is my first post here. I recently bought a few GURPS manuals after I resolved to abandon the d20 system for my RPG sessions. I am still trying to become familiar (sort of...) with the basic rules, so these Combat Examples are most welcome!

I have a question regarding Ranged Example Four (turn 5). Is it correct (according to the RAW) to allow the target of an unspotted sniper to use his/her dodge ability against such an attack?

mook 02-25-2008 03:38 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Thanks for the corrections folks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smirg
In the new ranged combat example, when Zach gets hit the second time, you wrote that his Dodge goes down to 5 as it is Basic Move + 3. This isn't correct, it's actually Basic Speed (rounded down) +3 (otherwise it would be too cheap to buy up). So Basic Move changes don't affect it. On the other hand, as Zach is below 1/3 HP, his Dodge is halved (to 4) and his Move is halved too (so down to 1).

Fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smirg
Edit: When Zach dodges next, his Dodge should therefore be down to 3. 4 for being below 1/3 HP, +2 for Feverish Defense, -3 for prone.
I believe that means that without Feverish Defense, he couldn't dodge at all (effective skill < 3), but there might be exceptions for combat (I think you can always defend on a 3), so better look that up. Should be either under defenses or at the summary of critical successes.

Yep, combat is explicitly excepted on B374, "An active defense roll of 3 or 4 is always successful - even if your effective defense score was only 1 or 2!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercator
In Ranged Four, Turn Four: When Zach is hit, his HP fall from 10 to 3. This is a Major Wound, so he should roll for Knockdown and Stunning. Also, he drops below 1/3 HP, so his Move and Dodge are halved.

Added the Major Wound and Knockdown and Stunning check.

I'm not sure on the 1/3 HP though - 1/3 of 10 is 3.3, rounded down to 3, so I would think "less than 1/3 HP" would be 2. Or do you check for the 1/3 before rounding, so "less than 1/3 HP" of 3.3 would be 3?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hai-Etlik
Not all combat ends in death/incapacitation. Having at least a few examples reflect this is probably a good idea.

Definitely true, but I'm trying to gives examples of how the rules function, not how a GM should run his NPCs - I suppose I could let one or two examples slide where someone runs away. : )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amedeo
Hi all,
this is my first post here. I recently bought a few GURPS manuals after I resolved to abandon the d20 system for my RPG sessions. I am still trying to become familiar (sort of...) with the basic rules, so these Combat Examples are most welcome!

I have a question regarding Ranged Example Four (turn 5). Is it correct (according to the RAW) to allow the target of an unspotted sniper to use his/her dodge ability against such an attack?

Welcome Amedeo, glad you're finding the examples helpful.

Regarding the Dodge against an unspotted sniper, I'd say it would be reasonable to require a Perception check to know where the sniper is. But strictly according to RAW, I was just going by B374, "You may dodge any attack except one that you did not know about." I think the interpretation of that could go either way - Zach certainly knows he's under attack, so he "knows about" the attack the way someone who can see a gunman pointing a pistol at him does; but he doesn't actually know from second to second whether or not a shot is incoming (but again, how does someone who sees a gunman pointing a pistol "know" exactly when the trigger will be pulled?).

Though I've updated the online examples, I haven't yet updated the Ranged Four PDF (until I find a more definitive answer on "less than 1/3 HP of 10" being 3 or 2 - I may post this question in a separate thread to see what folks think).

benz72 02-25-2008 07:38 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
Definitely true, but I'm trying to gives examples of how the rules function, not how a GM should run his NPCs - I suppose I could let one or two examples slide where someone runs away. : )

True, but IIRC there are combat rules that reference a free shot at a fleeing opponent.. an example could point this out. Also, it could exemplify reduced move penalties from wounds or some other crippling (leg/foot) that makes relative maneuvering important

e.g. maybe he stabs the foot, disengages and runs around to his blind/rear side...

mook 02-25-2008 09:49 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
That would be cool. :)

Do you recall where the 'free shot' stuff was? (I'm guessing MA).

Mercator 02-26-2008 01:56 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
I'm not sure on the 1/3 HP though - 1/3 of 10 is 3.3, rounded down to 3, so I would think "less than 1/3 HP" would be 2. Or do you check for the 1/3 before rounding, so "less than 1/3 HP" of 3.3 would be 3?

I'd go with the most literal reading of the RAW and check for the 1/3 before rounding. That is, 1/3*10 = 3.3, and since 3 < 3.3, he suffers the effects. I think this also works best for the various crippling thresholds, etc. But you are right, it is somewhat open to interpretation. What do others think?

Cheers,
M.

mook 02-26-2008 02:09 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
This thread hashed this over pretty well and came to the same conclusion.

Ranged Example Four has been updated online - I'll correct the PDF tomorrow.

Mercator 02-26-2008 02:23 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benz72
True, but IIRC there are combat rules that reference a free shot at a fleeing opponent.. an example could point this out. Also, it could exemplify reduced move penalties from wounds or some other crippling (leg/foot) that makes relative maneuvering important

e.g. maybe he stabs the foot, disengages and runs around to his blind/rear side...

This would be a great way to illustrate a cinematic fight against a bunch of mooks (no offense intended to the OP ;-)), and show options to speed up combat (a frequent question in the forums): They don't fight to the death but until the first Major Wound, etc.

Cheers,
M.

benz72 02-26-2008 09:57 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
That would be cool. :)

Do you recall where the 'free shot' stuff was? (I'm guessing MA).

Sorry, DHBWM and do not yet own MA so cannot comment on whether it is included in there.
recall that it had something to do with turning your back to your opponent and giving him the opportunity for a strike as you were pulling a quick exit (I had always envisioned it as the sort of thing Count Rugen did to Inigo when they meet in the hallway, but done at closer range)
From another perspective, this could contribute to the slaughter of a broken shieldwall, as the individuals of a formerly cohesive unit reprioritize in favor of number 1.
In any case, I do not have a rules quote or page number for you... help from our studio audience??? Can I use a lifeline???

Maz 02-26-2008 10:25 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benz72
"free shots"

I don't think there is anything like that, nor is it needed.

In GURPs as the combat rounds are 1 sec turns you just use the rules as they are and you get the same result.

To spin 180º around requires 3 movement points (p.387).
Even with a basic move of 6 you can't get more than a few steps away from your opponent if you have to turn around first.

So even if your opponent only has a move of 4 he could still make an All-Out-Attack and smash you in the back of the head allowing you NO DEFENCE!

you do not need 'free shots', the rules already give the 'correct' result: Turning your back on your foe means getting shot in the back.

DouglasCole 02-26-2008 10:39 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
This thread hashed this over pretty well and came to the same conclusion.

Ranged Example Four has been updated online - I'll correct the PDF tomorrow.

I'll need to look in High Tech and Basic, but doesn't our shooter need to take a second to work the bolt on his rifle? RoF is 1, so it's not semi-auto (or else it would be 3~). Shots is 4+1, but that only accounts for the magazine size.

I think Artie has to take a Ready action to work the bolt.

benz72 02-26-2008 10:50 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maz
I don't think there is anything like that, nor is it needed.

In GURPs as the combat rounds are 1 sec turns you just use the rules as they are and you get the same result.

To spin 180º around requires 3 movement points (p.387).
Even with a basic move of 6 you can't get more than a few steps away from your opponent if you have to turn around first.

So even if your opponent only has a move of 4 he could still make an All-Out-Attack and smash you in the back of the head allowing you NO DEFENCE!

you do not need 'free shots', the rules already give the 'correct' result: Turning your back on your foe means getting shot in the back.

This is probably the condition I was remembering, that there would be no defence on that 'turn and run' retreat... that fact that it was unopposed was why I was remembering it as 'free'.

mook 02-26-2008 02:12 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
I've updated the Ranged Example Four PDF to match the online version; I also included the Directory page and the FAQ in the bundled .zip file of PDFs.


Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole
I'll need to look in High Tech and Basic, but doesn't our shooter need to take a second to work the bolt on his rifle? RoF is 1, so it's not semi-auto (or else it would be 3~). Shots is 4+1, but that only accounts for the magazine size.

I think Artie has to take a Ready action to work the bolt.

I suspect this is additional detail from High-Tech - the Sniper Rifle as listed on B279 doesn't reference any notes, and there is another rifle specifically named 'Bolt-Action Rifle' in the table, so I think I'll leave it as-is.

StormCrow42 02-26-2008 04:56 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole
I'll need to look in High Tech and Basic, but doesn't our shooter need to take a second to work the bolt on his rifle? RoF is 1, so it's not semi-auto (or else it would be 3~). Shots is 4+1, but that only accounts for the magazine size.

I think Artie has to take a Ready action to work the bolt.

No, working the bolt is part of the ROF 1 for bolt action rifles in 4e, there isn't a separate action required (otherwise they'd be ROF 1/2).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm
Ah, we changed that in 4e -- with good reason. As our playtesters (some of whom shoot regularly, and I suppose even belong to the NRA :) pointed out, if the rules assume that you can pump a shotgun and pull the trigger two times a second (or hold down the trigger and pump it three times, if it lacks a disconnector) and fire a lever-action rifle once per second, then it's unfair to stick working a bolt out at once every other second. Having seen somebody empty 10 rounds from a Lee-Enfield* in 8 seconds, I don't really have any good reason to argue with that. So in 4e, the answer is, "Yes, you can operate a bolt and then pull the trigger once per second."

--

* Commonly cited as having a rate of fire in the vicinity of 20-30 aimed shots per minute. Let's choose 25 as the happy medium. If you take a second to Aim and a second to Attack with each of those, that's 50 seconds. After the first 10 and second 10 shots, you're pausing to ram a couple of 5-round chargers into the thing, which would add 5-6 seconds each time, or 10-12 seconds, for a total 60-62 seconds. There's your minute. A further 25 seconds for Ready maneuvers to operate the bolt won't fit into a minute.


BalanceFx 02-26-2008 07:34 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Some other examples would be cool:

Fighter with Grenade Weapons vrs melee fighter at 20 yards.

Range mage vrs melee mage at 20 feet. (Each with blink)

Mage Vrs Fighter. (Staff spell, lightning weapon, death touch etc)

I love the examples there now and emailed them out to my players just for reference. Pretty cool stuff.

The Bearded One 02-26-2008 11:16 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
I just wanted to post an update before going to bed. In rewriting the combat to reflect corrected spell-casting times, I noticed that I may have gotten the All-Out Defense wrong also.

In the scenario, the fighter has a high shock penalty, so he takes AOD (double); on the same turn, one of the zombies does AOA (double); the fighter retreats a step. The confusion? Do all of the AOD defense rolls get the bonus for the retreat? (IE: he attempts to parry (+1 for retreat) but fails, then 2nd defense attempts to dodge (+3 for retreat) and succeeds.)

Is that right?

-- The Bearded One

StormCrow42 02-27-2008 12:19 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bearded One
I just wanted to post an update before going to bed. In rewriting the combat to reflect corrected spell-casting times, I noticed that I may have gotten the All-Out Defense wrong also.

In the scenario, the fighter has a high shock penalty, so he takes AOD (double); on the same turn, one of the zombies does AOA (double); the fighter retreats a step. The confusion? Do all of the AOD defense rolls get the bonus for the retreat? (IE: he attempts to parry (+1 for retreat) but fails, then 2nd defense attempts to dodge (+3 for retreat) and succeeds.)

Yes, you benefit from a retreat vs all attacks by the opponent you retreated from.

mook 02-27-2008 12:30 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
I'd say that's right, based on B377:

"Your step back takes place immediately. It is assumed to occur as your foe is striking...If he has multiple attacks...you get your retreating bonus on all active defense rolls against all of his attacks until your next turn."

EDIT: Beaten to the punch!

StormCrow42 02-27-2008 12:47 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
EDIT: Beaten to the punch!

Yea, but you had a page reference :)

mook 02-27-2008 02:44 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Just from the few weeks I've been working on this project I now have dreams about the Basic Set, and my Campaigns book falls open nicely to about 6 or 7 spots!

The Bearded One 02-27-2008 05:46 PM

2:2 cbt w/Magic
 
Okay, I just finished the 2 v 2 combat example and sent it off to themook. It doesn't end as messily as I'd hoped. And sadly, it no longer includes a Slam attack (p371) which, I feel, should get a combat example of its own.

With luck, themook will put my contribution up on his website for all of you to help fix.

-- The Bearded One

mook 02-27-2008 06:05 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Awesome BeardedOne, thanks; I'll try to get it posted soon - I have another one sent in too, I think from LordHelmet.

pecete 03-05-2008 03:29 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Sugestion to add the official examples of combat in gurps web at FAQ web with the Mook format.
Been cheking your web page but no other examples seen lately, any more to be seen soon?

mook 03-07-2008 11:40 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Hiya Pecete - I've got two submitted examples I just started formatting/posting, hopefully they'll be up by the end of the weekend.

bjork 03-08-2008 03:04 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
BTW, these examples have been really nice to have when trying to create a combat checklist for 4th edition rules. So thanks for the work folks!

mook 03-08-2008 12:00 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Definitely two projects that complement one another nicely - so thank *you* folks for the 4th edition combat checklists! :)

It's kind of a pipe dream, but at some point in the future I'd love to 'automate' the combat checklist - that is, enter some initial data (skill level, target's DR, etc.) and have the checklist do all the computations for you as you go through the steps. Not the kind of thing (I would think) you'd use while actually playing, at the table, but would be fantastic for quickly running through a number of scenarios and learning the flow of the rules.

Unfortunately I know no Javascript or Python or anything, so it would have to be a massive Excel spreadsheet. I did some preliminary work on such a beast many years ago under 3rd edition - so who knows, maybe someday.

bjork 03-08-2008 12:48 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
Definitely two projects that complement one another nicely - so thank *you* folks for the 4th edition combat checklists! :)

It's kind of a pipe dream, but at some point in the future I'd love to 'automate' the combat checklist

Don't we all! Well, I can program but I don't have the time... and it would be really great if this imagined system could load characters created with the Character Assistant program. The file format seems pretty easy to parse but it would be really nice if it was changed to an XML-format someday.

Hmm, maybe I can get some students to do it as a project. Unfortunately the next bunch lining up for that will be in 9 months or so...

pecete 03-14-2008 02:01 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
How about something with criticals or fumbles?

mook 03-18-2008 02:41 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
I appreciate your patience folks (assuming you have been being patient; if you've been secretly cursing my name, no appreciation for you!) - a new example has been added to the pile, Melee Example Four:

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/...ex.php?id=four

This one was submitted by Lord Helmet - please have at it, tear it to pieces, make corrections, the usual. Once it's been thoroughly vetted I'll add a PDF like the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pecete
How about something with criticals or fumbles?

It's not much, but Melee Example Three has some crits - I'll try to add more to upcoming examples.

Mercator 03-18-2008 03:09 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Nice example. How about including a Feint and/or a Deceptive Attack?

Cheers,
M.

mook 03-18-2008 03:45 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercator
Nice example. How about including a Feint and/or a Deceptive Attack?

Cheers,
M.

No Feints yet, but both Melee Example Three and Close Combat Example Two have Deceptive Attacks thrown in.

demonsbane 03-18-2008 04:35 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Hey people, Mook:

Great examples, great layout.

Good work.

mook 03-18-2008 04:43 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Thanks man - always nice to hear.

Still planning on many more, the speed of posting has just slowed down.

(The next one will likely be an example submitted by The Bearded One, which will not only be the first 2 vs. 2, but also the first using Magic).

Gold & Appel Inc 03-19-2008 07:29 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranged #4 / Turn #6
Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Determined), Hit Location: Random (Zach)

Arthur rolls 3d6 against his effective Guns (Rifle) skill of 12 (+1 for All-Out Attack (Determined), +1 for bracing, -14 for 500 yards range) and gets 11 - a possible hit.

In the above passage, Arthur's effective skill would be 10 rather than 12 if his base skill is 22 and he was at a total of -12 in penalties. He should be at a total of -14 in penalties for effective skill 8, however, because Zach was crippled in the leg and knocked down prone in Round 5. This would turn Arthur's hit in Round 6 into a miss with a roll of 11.

Gold & Appel Inc 03-19-2008 10:20 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranged #1
Spear: 1d+3 imp; Acc: 2; Range: 14/21; RoF: 1; Shots: T(1); ST: 9; Bulk: -6 (4 lbs.) [snip]

TURN THREE [snip]

Zach Red HP: 14
Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Determined) (Arthur)

Rolls 3d6 against his effective Thrown Weapon (Spear) skill of 13 (+1 for All-Out Attack (Determined), +2 for Accuracy, -6 for 20 yard range) and gets 12 - a possible hit. [snip]

Since he didn't specify a Hit Location, the attack defaults to the Torso (B369). Zach rolls 1d+3 for damage and gets a total of 6.

Zach's damage should be halved in the example above, as Arthur is only barely within his max range.

The Bearded One 03-19-2008 11:01 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
In the newest example, Melee #4, we find this paragraph at the end of Turn 5:
Quote:

As this is a Major Wound (more than 1/2 HP injury from a single blow), Zach must check for Knockdown and Stunning (B420). He rolls 3d6 against his effective HT of 15 (+3 for High Pain Threshold) and gets 13 - he suffers no penalty beyond ordinary shock.
Since Zach has High Pain Threshold, the last part should say something closer to " - he suffers no further penalty." No shock applies to him.

-- The Bearded One

mlangsdorf 03-20-2008 07:14 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
In Example #4, one of the characters has Fast-Draw (Axe/Mace), which isn't a legal specialty of Fast-Draw. He doesn't use it, so it doesn't matter, but it should be removed.

mook 03-20-2008 05:13 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Ranged Four, Turn Six
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc
In the above passage, Arthur's effective skill would be 10 rather than 12 if his base skill is 22 and he was at a total of -12 in penalties. He should be at a total of -14 in penalties for effective skill 8, however, because Zach was crippled in the leg and knocked down prone in Round 5. This would turn Arthur's hit in Round 6 into a miss with a roll of 11.

Ranged One, Turn Three
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc
Zach's damage should be halved in the example above, as Arthur is only barely within his max range.

Melee Four, Turn Five
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bearded One
In the newest example, Melee #4, we find this paragraph at the end of Turn 5:

Since Zach has High Pain Threshold, the last part should say something closer to " - he suffers no further penalty." No shock applies to him.

Melee Four
Quote:

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf
In Example #4, one of the characters has Fast-Draw (Axe/Mace), which isn't a legal specialty of Fast-Draw. He doesn't use it, so it doesn't matter, but it should be removed.

All fixed - thanks for the corrections folks! (The online examples have been fixed, I haven't redone the PDFs yet.)

pecete 04-03-2008 05:16 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Not sure about this, but in melee 4 turn 2 Zach Red tries to parry the shield rush of Arthur Green, my question is is the slam atack of AG considered a Heavy weapon for parry purpouses(B376)? Zach is using all his mase and velocity for the attack. In case it is zach should have doned a feverish dogde and retreat as I see.

Lonewulf 04-03-2008 05:20 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pecete
Not sure about this, but in melee 4 turn 2 Zach Red tries to parry the shield rush of Arthur Green, my question is is the slam atack of AG considered a Heavy weapon for parry purpouses(B376)?

Yes. It is equivalent to your ST.

So to parry an ST 10 person's rush, you'd be just fine with a 3.5 lb.+ blade. With a 3 lb. blade, you're looking at 2 in 6 chance of breakage; worse if it's cheap. Better if it's fine. None if it's Very Fine (naturally).

Personally, I'd be willing to add DB from the shield to the weight of the slammer for purposes of breaking, but that would probably be a home rule. So a 13 lb. attack with a DB 3 shield wielded by someone that's ST 10. I'd figure that a blade is more likely to break against a hard large shield than a small fleshy target.

mook 04-03-2008 06:04 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Good catch guys - I'll try to update that tomorrow. I probably won't change any maneuvers, just have AG roll to determine weapon breakage and have the weapon survive (so I can throw another rule into the examples that isn't there yet).

mook 08-14-2008 02:22 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
Good catch guys - I'll try to update that tomorrow.

And by "tomorrow", I clearly meant "in four months or so" (doh!).

The combat examples project has *not* been forgotten, though obviously I've not given it much attention for a few months (it is, however, heartening to see that folks still seem to stumble across the page and hopefully find it useful). Updating the current examples with the corrections posted here and sent via email is next on 'The List', followed by more new examples if all goes well.

First though I'm trying to finish the other GURPS project I've been working on the past 3-4 weeks, a 4th edition combat flowchart formatted as an Excel spreadsheet. It's been a lot of work, and still has a ways to go before posting to the Game Aids forum, but I'm reasonably happy with the results, and look forward to getting the usual insightful feedback from all the resident GURPSaholics.

Just wanted to post to let folks know what I've been up to, lest anyone think the Examples are dead. I'm hoping another 2-3 weeks until the first, rough draft of the spreadsheet is ready for public scrutiny, then some quick polish on the existing examples, then tweaks to the spreadsheet, and finally, brand new examples.

As always, suggestions and comments are most welcome.

Snubber 08-14-2008 03:43 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
mook,

Appreciate the examples on your website, and hunger for more; I really need to see examples like this to get the rules clear in my head. Also looking forward to this flowchart you got brewing, sounds like good stuff.

bjork 08-14-2008 04:31 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook
First though I'm trying to finish the other GURPS project I've been working on the past 3-4 weeks, a 4th edition combat flowchart formatted as an Excel spreadsheet. It's been a lot of work, and still has a ways to go before posting to the Game Aids forum, but I'm reasonably happy with the results, and look forward to getting the usual insightful feedback from all the resident GURPSaholics.

[...]

As always, suggestions and comments are most welcome.

Hmm, you might want to have a look at the combat checklist I did in Word. It isn't finished but maybe can help you doublecheck the order of sequences.

I've uploaded in to rapidspare here.

If you find errors in it, please tell me :)

mook 08-14-2008 12:32 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snubber
Appreciate the examples on your website, and hunger for more

Thanks Snubber - can't ask for much more than that. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snubber
looking forward to this flowchart you got brewing, sounds like good stuff.

I'm hoping a lot of folks find it useful. Maybe a bit much to be used at the game table while actually playing - I'm envisioning it more as something a prospective GURPS GM can sit down with and use to run through 5-6 "combats", plugging in different numbers and choosing different options each time, to get a good handle on the flow of GURPS combat.

Initially, like the Examples, I'm just sticking to Basic RAW, but I'm sure options from Martial Arts and High-Tech could be added in later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjork
Hmm, you might want to have a look at the combat checklist I did in Word. It isn't finished but maybe can help you doublecheck the order of sequences.

Great, thanks for that Bjork. I've been using two checklists (found here on the forums) as inspiration/templates - the one at Collective Restraint's site (which I believe is a reformatting of yours), and the one at Rasputin's site, but the more the better.

mook 09-11-2008 02:10 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
For those interested, I've finally completed the (very alpha, version 0.1) spreadsheet I mentioned above. Details here.

This means eventually I'll be getting back to the Examples. :)

Gold & Appel Inc 05-04-2009 04:28 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Close Combat #4, Turn #2:

"Dodge is Basic Move +3" should read "Dodge is Basic Speed +3," with Zach's Dodge adjusted accordingly.

mook 05-04-2009 01:56 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Thanks! Hopefully find some time soon to correct the last few errors that have been brought to my attention - every little bit helps.

Landwalker 05-04-2009 05:56 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
You must be a man of truly legendary patience to wade through all of that, Mook, and I very much appreciate that you've done so. I'm working on putting together a GURPS play-by-post campaign at the moment and being able to refer GURPS neophytes to your samples will go a long, long way towards helping them get a handle on things (and hell, it was great for me to read, too, since I'm pretty new myself). I hope you don't mind if I post a link in my game?

Another question I had: What were you using to make your combat maps?

Cheers.

mook 05-05-2009 12:12 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Landwalker
You must be a man of truly legendary patience to wade through all of that, Mook, and I very much appreciate that you've done so. I'm working on putting together a GURPS play-by-post campaign at the moment and being able to refer GURPS neophytes to your samples will go a long, long way towards helping them get a handle on things (and hell, it was great for me to read, too, since I'm pretty new myself). I hope you don't mind if I post a link in my game?

Another question I had: What were you using to make your combat maps?

Link away Landwalker, I'm just glad some folks find them helpful. It can be a bit draining, part of the reason I've taken such a long break, but it can also be a lot of fun.

For the combat maps, I'm pretty sure I just made a .jpg of some hexes at this site: http://www.incompetech.com/graphpaper/hexagonal/ , then photoshopped in some arrows as needed. Unfortunately I didn't save (or have since lost) those arrow files, so I'll probably have to wing up another couple (not a huge obstacle, but annoying).

Dinadon 05-05-2009 02:50 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Ranged Combat 4 -Turn 6

1. Zach's last turn was to recover from stun, the defense penalty for stun lasts until his next turn. Thus he should be at a further penalty.

2. Even without that, he's rolled 10 more than his effective score. This is a critical failure, and should at least be indicated as such.

mook 05-05-2009 04:16 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Thanks Dinadon! Added to the list of likely fixes.

Ragitsu 05-08-2009 01:02 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Examples of combat sound great. Now, if you can get narrative to accompany the mechanics, it will be even better.

Phoenix_Dragon 05-08-2009 01:47 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinadon
1. Zach's last turn was to recover from stun, the defense penalty for stun lasts until his next turn. Thus he should be at a further penalty.

Ehh, I'm not so sure at that. I guess the sentance in the rules can be read kind of ambiguously, but it seems to say that you recover from the stun when you make your HT roll (And the end of your turn). Since the -4 is a property of being stunned, that would mean you wouldn't have that penalty after having recovered from stun, even if you haven't gotten to your next turn yet. The "subsequent turns" part seems to be referring to the "act normally" (It seems odd to "recover from stuns" on "subsequent turns").

Though looking at that made me notice something I hadn't really payed attention to... Because a stun forces you to take a Do Nothing maneuver, you wouldn't have to roll to remain concious when you're stunned (Such as his action in turn 5). Not that it mattered much for that fight, because even on a Do Nothing maneuver, you have to roll to stay concious if you attempt a defense that turn, though it would delay the unconciousness roll until his first attempted defense, in turn 6.

mook 05-08-2009 02:59 AM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Examples of combat sound great. Now, if you can get narrative to accompany the mechanics, it will be even better.

I've thought of that, but hit a couple of snags. Most obvious is, it would take even more time for each example. The bigger problem, I think, is that while the examples themselves are purely objective, nothing but math and codified RAW, any sort of narrative would be entirely subjective.

Some folks like "Bob, you swing your sword at Charlie but miss." Others like "Bob, you swing your sword at Charlie but miss by the smallest of margins as he dodges backwards." Still others prefer the whole shebang, "Bob, you swing your sword at Charlie and are almost certain of scoring a bloody hit, but at the last possible second he leaps away just out of reach."

Seemed better to just stick to the concrete numbers and let readers fill in their own narrative. Not to mention the inevitable critiques of the writing itself. I don't know - not saying never, just needs more thought.

As for the question of when the Stun ends ... to be honest I'm not sure yet. I haven't even looked back at the example, only made a note to myself to "Check on Ranged Combat 4 -Turn 6".

(In a way it's good news keeping me from working on the examples - I'm engrossed in prepping a GURPS Old West game, after not having a chance to run for waaay too long. Actual play trumps hypothetical, but I am being a busy little bee).

Ragitsu 07-17-2009 05:56 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
mook, have you ever thought about doing vehicle combat examples?

AmesJainchill 07-17-2009 06:09 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
I've got a Spaceships combat example here.

I think it's all correct. Beware, though, it's using my Star Wars houserules.

Riggler 07-21-2009 03:26 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Just want to say as a very green newb who is still learning the system. Never played a GURPS game and is gearing up to run, this site with the examples was much help. Thanks a lot.

Crakkerjakk 07-21-2009 03:50 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Riggler (Post 823260)
Just want to say as a very green newb who is still learning the system. Never played a GURPS game and is gearing up to run, this site with the examples was much help. Thanks a lot.

Remember that these examples are with all the rules options turned on. Combat doesn't have to be as complicated as these if you don't want it to be.

gilbone 07-27-2009 08:35 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
This is a long thread, someone has probably already mentioned this...

Ranged Combat 4, Turn 4

"Also, as he now has less than 1/3 his HP, his Move and Dodge are halved.


Zach Red HP: 3, Shock: -4
Maneuver: Move
Though he may be safer hiding behind his car, Zach doesn't know how many shooters are out there trying to kill him, so he decides to make a mad dash back to the house - he moves 5 yards towards the front door, and is then 5 yards away. "

Am I wrong or should he only move 2 yards, being at 1/2 Move?

These are great examples. I used to play 2e and 3e at least once a week, more often than not, twice. Since then I've gotten married and have a kid and have only been able to play 4e a handful of times. These examples are helping me get into the swing of things again, and I hope to have time in the very near future to play.

Great work. Great site.

Captain Joy 07-27-2009 11:52 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mook (Post 530941)
Suggestions as well as corrections welcome

Ranged Combat, Example One, Turn Seven:
Quote:

As this is a Major Wound (more than 1/2 HP injury from a single blow), Zach must check for Knockdown and Stunning. He rolls 3d6 against his effective HT of 6 (-5 for Hit Location: Vitals) and gets 10 - he falls down prone and suffers Stun.
I don't have my books with me, but I don't think a location penalty should be applied to the HT roll against Knockdown and Stunning.

Gold & Appel Inc 07-28-2009 12:33 PM

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Joy (Post 826351)
Ranged Combat, Example One, Turn Seven:
I don't have my books with me, but I don't think a location penalty should be applied to the HT roll against Knockdown and Stunning.

4e Campaigns p 420: "Knockdown and Stunning [snip] Modifiers: -5 for a major wound to the face or vitals) [snip]"


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