Re: Examples of 4e Combat
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http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/pdftest03.pdf |
Re: Examples of 4e Combat
PDF test 3 looks fantastic IMHO.
On another topic, I haven't gotten very far through my own 2:2 combat example, but it already looks like the humans are going to get their asses royally handed to them. Should I tone down the zombies so it'll be a longer, closer combat? Or should I let it stand and provide an example of when to run away (similar to your Ranged Cbt #3)? -- The Bearded One |
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Since no one has chimed in yet to say "OMG, that PDF makes my eyes hemorrhage!", I'll assume it's okay - should have PDFs ready for the 11 current examples by this weekend-ish. |
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2:2 GURPS 4e cbt w/Magic
My example is finally finished and emailed to themook. The humans were just in over their heads, and the mage was slower than I thought he'd be. Unless a spell is at skill 20+, there is still one full second of concentration to prep and the next action to "fire" the spell.
IE: Mage turn one, Concentrate to prep spell. Mage turn two, Concentrate to spend FP and make the roll for spell success. Mage turn three, Concentrate on prep for next spell. Mage turn four, Concentrate, spend FP, roll. Repeat for all non-Blocking spells. Did I get this wrong? That's how I read the first two paragraphs of pM7. -- The Bearded One |
Re: Examples of 4e Combat
Check the last paragraph on p7, "Time Required"
You roll for the spell at the end of the active part of your turn. A 1 second spell takes 1 second to cast. So if the wizard wants to set everything on fire, the sequence is: Turn 1: Concentrate on Create Fire. Roll dice, spend fatigue. Things are on fire. Turn 2: Concentrate on Fireball. Decide to make it big. Turn 3: Concentrate on Fireball. Roll dice, spend fatigue. Turn 4: Aim fireball. Turn 5: Throw fireball. An enemy archer cannot disrupt the casting of Create Fire without taking a Wait maneuver. He can disrupt the Fireball by attacking in between the wizard's Turn 2 and Turn 3, and spoil the wizard's aim by attacking in between the wizard's Turn 4 and Turn 5. |
Re: Examples of 4e Combat
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-- The Bearded One |
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Probably the humans will just figure out that they're in over their heads and flee. -- The Bearded One |
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Hiya The Bearded One -
Haven't looked at the example you emailed (since you're redoing it anyway), but it would save me some time if you could arrange the numbers so one side or the other is defeated (either unconscious or dead) like the other examples. In an actual game a smart character will run away, but that doesn't help the examples much. :) |
Re: Examples of 4e Combat
<gasp!> Do you mean for me to fudge die rolls? But that is strictly against the GM code! <wink wink>
-- The Bearded One |
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I won't tell if you won't. : )
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Re: Examples of 4e Combat
I have completed PDFs for all 11 current examples - they can be downloaded individually from each example's page, or downloaded together in a single .zip file here:
http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples-download Please let me know if you notice any glaring problems with the PDFs, I'll do my best to correct. |
Re: Examples of 4e Combat
In the new ranged combat example, when Zach gets hit the second time, you wrote that his Dodge goes down to 5 as it is Basic Move + 3. This isn't correct, it's actually Basic Speed (rounded down) +3 (otherwise it would be too cheap to buy up). So Basic Move changes don't affect it.
On the other hand, as Zach is below 1/3 HP, his Dodge is halved (to 4) and his Move is halved too (so down to 1). Can't give the page reference to these, however, I'm at work now. But the first is in the dark red section at the beginning of Characters where attributes are listed (under secondary attributes, obviously) and the latter is in the light green injury section in Campaigns (under the heading "effects of injury" iirc). Don't know whether it appears in the shortened combat descriptions at the end of Characters too. Edit: When Zach dodges next, his Dodge should therefore be down to 3. 4 for being below 1/3 HP, +2 for Feverish Defense, -3 for prone. I believe that means that without Feverish Defense, he couldn't dodge at all (effective skill < 3), but there might be exceptions for combat (I think you can always defend on a 3), so better look that up. Should be either under defenses or at the summary of critical successes. |
Re: Examples of 4e Combat
In Ranged Four, Turn Four: When Zach is hit, his HP fall from 10 to 3. This is a Major Wound, so he should roll for Knockdown and Stunning. Also, he drops below 1/3 HP, so his Move and Dodge are halved.
Cheers, M. |
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Not all combat ends in death/incapacitation. Having at least a few examples reflect this is probably a good idea.
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Hi all,
this is my first post here. I recently bought a few GURPS manuals after I resolved to abandon the d20 system for my RPG sessions. I am still trying to become familiar (sort of...) with the basic rules, so these Combat Examples are most welcome! I have a question regarding Ranged Example Four (turn 5). Is it correct (according to the RAW) to allow the target of an unspotted sniper to use his/her dodge ability against such an attack? |
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Thanks for the corrections folks!
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I'm not sure on the 1/3 HP though - 1/3 of 10 is 3.3, rounded down to 3, so I would think "less than 1/3 HP" would be 2. Or do you check for the 1/3 before rounding, so "less than 1/3 HP" of 3.3 would be 3? Quote:
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Regarding the Dodge against an unspotted sniper, I'd say it would be reasonable to require a Perception check to know where the sniper is. But strictly according to RAW, I was just going by B374, "You may dodge any attack except one that you did not know about." I think the interpretation of that could go either way - Zach certainly knows he's under attack, so he "knows about" the attack the way someone who can see a gunman pointing a pistol at him does; but he doesn't actually know from second to second whether or not a shot is incoming (but again, how does someone who sees a gunman pointing a pistol "know" exactly when the trigger will be pulled?). Though I've updated the online examples, I haven't yet updated the Ranged Four PDF (until I find a more definitive answer on "less than 1/3 HP of 10" being 3 or 2 - I may post this question in a separate thread to see what folks think). |
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e.g. maybe he stabs the foot, disengages and runs around to his blind/rear side... |
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That would be cool. :)
Do you recall where the 'free shot' stuff was? (I'm guessing MA). |
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Cheers, M. |
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This thread hashed this over pretty well and came to the same conclusion.
Ranged Example Four has been updated online - I'll correct the PDF tomorrow. |
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Cheers, M. |
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recall that it had something to do with turning your back to your opponent and giving him the opportunity for a strike as you were pulling a quick exit (I had always envisioned it as the sort of thing Count Rugen did to Inigo when they meet in the hallway, but done at closer range) From another perspective, this could contribute to the slaughter of a broken shieldwall, as the individuals of a formerly cohesive unit reprioritize in favor of number 1. In any case, I do not have a rules quote or page number for you... help from our studio audience??? Can I use a lifeline??? |
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In GURPs as the combat rounds are 1 sec turns you just use the rules as they are and you get the same result. To spin 180º around requires 3 movement points (p.387). Even with a basic move of 6 you can't get more than a few steps away from your opponent if you have to turn around first. So even if your opponent only has a move of 4 he could still make an All-Out-Attack and smash you in the back of the head allowing you NO DEFENCE! you do not need 'free shots', the rules already give the 'correct' result: Turning your back on your foe means getting shot in the back. |
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I think Artie has to take a Ready action to work the bolt. |
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I've updated the Ranged Example Four PDF to match the online version; I also included the Directory page and the FAQ in the bundled .zip file of PDFs.
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Some other examples would be cool:
Fighter with Grenade Weapons vrs melee fighter at 20 yards. Range mage vrs melee mage at 20 feet. (Each with blink) Mage Vrs Fighter. (Staff spell, lightning weapon, death touch etc) I love the examples there now and emailed them out to my players just for reference. Pretty cool stuff. |
Re: Examples of 4e Combat
I just wanted to post an update before going to bed. In rewriting the combat to reflect corrected spell-casting times, I noticed that I may have gotten the All-Out Defense wrong also.
In the scenario, the fighter has a high shock penalty, so he takes AOD (double); on the same turn, one of the zombies does AOA (double); the fighter retreats a step. The confusion? Do all of the AOD defense rolls get the bonus for the retreat? (IE: he attempts to parry (+1 for retreat) but fails, then 2nd defense attempts to dodge (+3 for retreat) and succeeds.) Is that right? -- The Bearded One |
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I'd say that's right, based on B377:
"Your step back takes place immediately. It is assumed to occur as your foe is striking...If he has multiple attacks...you get your retreating bonus on all active defense rolls against all of his attacks until your next turn." EDIT: Beaten to the punch! |
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Just from the few weeks I've been working on this project I now have dreams about the Basic Set, and my Campaigns book falls open nicely to about 6 or 7 spots!
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2:2 cbt w/Magic
Okay, I just finished the 2 v 2 combat example and sent it off to themook. It doesn't end as messily as I'd hoped. And sadly, it no longer includes a Slam attack (p371) which, I feel, should get a combat example of its own.
With luck, themook will put my contribution up on his website for all of you to help fix. -- The Bearded One |
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Awesome BeardedOne, thanks; I'll try to get it posted soon - I have another one sent in too, I think from LordHelmet.
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Sugestion to add the official examples of combat in gurps web at FAQ web with the Mook format.
Been cheking your web page but no other examples seen lately, any more to be seen soon? |
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Hiya Pecete - I've got two submitted examples I just started formatting/posting, hopefully they'll be up by the end of the weekend.
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BTW, these examples have been really nice to have when trying to create a combat checklist for 4th edition rules. So thanks for the work folks!
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Definitely two projects that complement one another nicely - so thank *you* folks for the 4th edition combat checklists! :)
It's kind of a pipe dream, but at some point in the future I'd love to 'automate' the combat checklist - that is, enter some initial data (skill level, target's DR, etc.) and have the checklist do all the computations for you as you go through the steps. Not the kind of thing (I would think) you'd use while actually playing, at the table, but would be fantastic for quickly running through a number of scenarios and learning the flow of the rules. Unfortunately I know no Javascript or Python or anything, so it would have to be a massive Excel spreadsheet. I did some preliminary work on such a beast many years ago under 3rd edition - so who knows, maybe someday. |
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Hmm, maybe I can get some students to do it as a project. Unfortunately the next bunch lining up for that will be in 9 months or so... |
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How about something with criticals or fumbles?
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I appreciate your patience folks (assuming you have been being patient; if you've been secretly cursing my name, no appreciation for you!) - a new example has been added to the pile, Melee Example Four:
http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/...ex.php?id=four This one was submitted by Lord Helmet - please have at it, tear it to pieces, make corrections, the usual. Once it's been thoroughly vetted I'll add a PDF like the others. Quote:
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Nice example. How about including a Feint and/or a Deceptive Attack?
Cheers, M. |
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Hey people, Mook:
Great examples, great layout. Good work. |
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Thanks man - always nice to hear.
Still planning on many more, the speed of posting has just slowed down. (The next one will likely be an example submitted by The Bearded One, which will not only be the first 2 vs. 2, but also the first using Magic). |
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In the newest example, Melee #4, we find this paragraph at the end of Turn 5:
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-- The Bearded One |
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In Example #4, one of the characters has Fast-Draw (Axe/Mace), which isn't a legal specialty of Fast-Draw. He doesn't use it, so it doesn't matter, but it should be removed.
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Ranged Four, Turn Six
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Not sure about this, but in melee 4 turn 2 Zach Red tries to parry the shield rush of Arthur Green, my question is is the slam atack of AG considered a Heavy weapon for parry purpouses(B376)? Zach is using all his mase and velocity for the attack. In case it is zach should have doned a feverish dogde and retreat as I see.
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So to parry an ST 10 person's rush, you'd be just fine with a 3.5 lb.+ blade. With a 3 lb. blade, you're looking at 2 in 6 chance of breakage; worse if it's cheap. Better if it's fine. None if it's Very Fine (naturally). Personally, I'd be willing to add DB from the shield to the weight of the slammer for purposes of breaking, but that would probably be a home rule. So a 13 lb. attack with a DB 3 shield wielded by someone that's ST 10. I'd figure that a blade is more likely to break against a hard large shield than a small fleshy target. |
Re: Examples of 4e Combat
Good catch guys - I'll try to update that tomorrow. I probably won't change any maneuvers, just have AG roll to determine weapon breakage and have the weapon survive (so I can throw another rule into the examples that isn't there yet).
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The combat examples project has *not* been forgotten, though obviously I've not given it much attention for a few months (it is, however, heartening to see that folks still seem to stumble across the page and hopefully find it useful). Updating the current examples with the corrections posted here and sent via email is next on 'The List', followed by more new examples if all goes well. First though I'm trying to finish the other GURPS project I've been working on the past 3-4 weeks, a 4th edition combat flowchart formatted as an Excel spreadsheet. It's been a lot of work, and still has a ways to go before posting to the Game Aids forum, but I'm reasonably happy with the results, and look forward to getting the usual insightful feedback from all the resident GURPSaholics. Just wanted to post to let folks know what I've been up to, lest anyone think the Examples are dead. I'm hoping another 2-3 weeks until the first, rough draft of the spreadsheet is ready for public scrutiny, then some quick polish on the existing examples, then tweaks to the spreadsheet, and finally, brand new examples. As always, suggestions and comments are most welcome. |
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mook,
Appreciate the examples on your website, and hunger for more; I really need to see examples like this to get the rules clear in my head. Also looking forward to this flowchart you got brewing, sounds like good stuff. |
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I've uploaded in to rapidspare here. If you find errors in it, please tell me :) |
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Initially, like the Examples, I'm just sticking to Basic RAW, but I'm sure options from Martial Arts and High-Tech could be added in later. Quote:
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For those interested, I've finally completed the (very alpha, version 0.1) spreadsheet I mentioned above. Details here.
This means eventually I'll be getting back to the Examples. :) |
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Close Combat #4, Turn #2:
"Dodge is Basic Move +3" should read "Dodge is Basic Speed +3," with Zach's Dodge adjusted accordingly. |
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Thanks! Hopefully find some time soon to correct the last few errors that have been brought to my attention - every little bit helps.
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You must be a man of truly legendary patience to wade through all of that, Mook, and I very much appreciate that you've done so. I'm working on putting together a GURPS play-by-post campaign at the moment and being able to refer GURPS neophytes to your samples will go a long, long way towards helping them get a handle on things (and hell, it was great for me to read, too, since I'm pretty new myself). I hope you don't mind if I post a link in my game?
Another question I had: What were you using to make your combat maps? Cheers. |
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For the combat maps, I'm pretty sure I just made a .jpg of some hexes at this site: http://www.incompetech.com/graphpaper/hexagonal/ , then photoshopped in some arrows as needed. Unfortunately I didn't save (or have since lost) those arrow files, so I'll probably have to wing up another couple (not a huge obstacle, but annoying). |
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Ranged Combat 4 -Turn 6
1. Zach's last turn was to recover from stun, the defense penalty for stun lasts until his next turn. Thus he should be at a further penalty. 2. Even without that, he's rolled 10 more than his effective score. This is a critical failure, and should at least be indicated as such. |
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Thanks Dinadon! Added to the list of likely fixes.
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Examples of combat sound great. Now, if you can get narrative to accompany the mechanics, it will be even better.
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Though looking at that made me notice something I hadn't really payed attention to... Because a stun forces you to take a Do Nothing maneuver, you wouldn't have to roll to remain concious when you're stunned (Such as his action in turn 5). Not that it mattered much for that fight, because even on a Do Nothing maneuver, you have to roll to stay concious if you attempt a defense that turn, though it would delay the unconciousness roll until his first attempted defense, in turn 6. |
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Some folks like "Bob, you swing your sword at Charlie but miss." Others like "Bob, you swing your sword at Charlie but miss by the smallest of margins as he dodges backwards." Still others prefer the whole shebang, "Bob, you swing your sword at Charlie and are almost certain of scoring a bloody hit, but at the last possible second he leaps away just out of reach." Seemed better to just stick to the concrete numbers and let readers fill in their own narrative. Not to mention the inevitable critiques of the writing itself. I don't know - not saying never, just needs more thought. As for the question of when the Stun ends ... to be honest I'm not sure yet. I haven't even looked back at the example, only made a note to myself to "Check on Ranged Combat 4 -Turn 6". (In a way it's good news keeping me from working on the examples - I'm engrossed in prepping a GURPS Old West game, after not having a chance to run for waaay too long. Actual play trumps hypothetical, but I am being a busy little bee). |
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mook, have you ever thought about doing vehicle combat examples?
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I've got a Spaceships combat example here.
I think it's all correct. Beware, though, it's using my Star Wars houserules. |
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Just want to say as a very green newb who is still learning the system. Never played a GURPS game and is gearing up to run, this site with the examples was much help. Thanks a lot.
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This is a long thread, someone has probably already mentioned this...
Ranged Combat 4, Turn 4 "Also, as he now has less than 1/3 his HP, his Move and Dodge are halved. Zach Red HP: 3, Shock: -4 Maneuver: Move Though he may be safer hiding behind his car, Zach doesn't know how many shooters are out there trying to kill him, so he decides to make a mad dash back to the house - he moves 5 yards towards the front door, and is then 5 yards away. " Am I wrong or should he only move 2 yards, being at 1/2 Move? These are great examples. I used to play 2e and 3e at least once a week, more often than not, twice. Since then I've gotten married and have a kid and have only been able to play 4e a handful of times. These examples are helping me get into the swing of things again, and I hope to have time in the very near future to play. Great work. Great site. |
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