Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Nit-pick on the scope FAQ. I believe that a variable power scope only allows you to set your high power scope to a lower value, to reduce the time you spend aiming. What the book says is

With a fixed-power scope, you must aim for at least as many seconds as the scope's bonus. With a variable-power scope, you may Aim for fewer seconds, but this reduces your bonus by a like amount. B412
(stolen from your site)

Now, if I set my x3-x9 scope to x9, there is no difference between it and a x9 fixed scope. However, what I can do is dial the scope down to x3, and it takes much less time for me to acquire a target. All the book says is that I may aim for fewer seconds but this reduces the bonus. It doesn't say I get +1 bonus per turn. Now, I'll admit that this is very open to interpretation, but I don't see why two x9 scopes that differ only in whether they are called "fixed" or "variable" get a +3 bonus at the end of three turns of aiming vs. +1 per turn for three turns. I would say that changing the scope to a different value would require a ready maneuver, as it requires about as much effort as changing a weapon from single-shot to full auto using a fire selector switch and a ready maneuver is suggested for this.(HT82)

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

In Melee Combat Two, Turn Four, you've got Green doing an All-Out Attack (Double), rolling against his Shortsword skill, when in fact he has Broadsword. Other than that, great stuff, keep up the good work!

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

:: scratches head :: Um, ya know - after your explaining it like that, I'm not sure how I interpreted it the way I did. The way you posted seems more internally consistent, and more common sensical - I'll adjust the FAQ (and Ranged Example Two).

Oops, did the same thing in Turn Three as well - fixed. Thanks Darkclaw!

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

mook,

I spotted several problems in the beginning, but the hive mind has corrected them by now. I just want to thank you for the combat examples. Keep up with the good work!

Cheers,

M.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Will do Mercator, thanks for the encouragement.

You folks on the forums have been doing a great job of keeping me on my toes and polishing the rough edges. :)

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Thanks, Mook - these examples are great. I can't help but think, however, that if it is difficult in a written example, it's impossible at the table!

We're going to try to put together a "Tome of Combat" for our group, so we at least have a chance of finding the relevant rules, never mind applying them correctly!

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

What I do personally is to have characters have a Modus Operandi.

Attack maneuvers, defensive maneuvers, what to use against armored foes, what to use against multiple foes, etc. Essentially, how would they fight, and when?

Just listing some of your favored attack options is great. Scribe down beats if you're strong, feints if you have a decent DX, and a Ruse if you have a decent IQ.

In fact, sometimes it's best to have a good mix of characters, each having their own abilities in combat! Then, as all of your "favorite" rules are scribbled down, others can use them if it comes up. For instance, the gunbunny can hand over the ranged mods to the knife fighter that finally decided to throw his knife, etc.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Well hopefully that's not the case. :)

Most of the reason it takes me so long to write these is I'm a bit of a stickler for perfection, and just the formatting of the html itself; plus, in actual play there are probably a few optional rules here and there that I wouldn't be using.

I find the GURPS Combat Cards to be extremely helpful while playing (I even made up my own for 3e before they were official) - print up a set for each player, then they can just pick the card matching their maneuver for the turn and (in theory) have all the rules they'll need right there on the card.

I also think it's important to distinguish between these examples as a learning tool, sort of a theoretical review, and running real games. In actual play, like Lonewulf mentioned, players tend to choose the same actions in combat, so the group quickly picks those rules up - no need to learn the rules for, say, hollow point bullets until someone in the group plans to use 'em.

Wow, that was longer than I intended, oh well - mostly just wanted to say that in actual play I think GURPS runs just fine, and the rules get picked up pretty quickly.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I tried an alternate formatting for the examples - don't really like it, but thought others might want to take a peek:

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/...php?id=one-alt

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I agree, I like the old one much better. It's much more neat. I don't think people actually need the turn reference at every single roll. So a single Turn one at the start of that turn is enough IMO. I actually feel I have an easier time navigating the example as the TURN ONE in capitalised black bold on the white background stands out more clearly than the (Turn One), which is in the same format as the character-name, (parentese, underlined and in the same colour) and also it fades out a bit as it is in the same shade of colour as the background.

So I say; please keep the current one :)


Btw. in this example (Melee 1), in turn 2, when Arthur Green parries. You might want to note that he could make a retreating parry for +1 to skill. I see no reason why he shouldn't do so as they both have the same reach of weapons there is no drawback, and he would increase his chance to parry by 12,5%! (from 9 to 10)).
The same goes for all the dodges. I have never seen a GURPS combat were people do not retreat at every possible chance they get (unless of course they face someone with longer reach).

[Edit]
Turn 3. You note his arm is crippled because of the Accumulated Wounds rule. You should note that this is an Optional rule, not everyone use it, I don't. If your examples are supposed to be a help for newbies I don't think you should include optional rules, and if you do, you should clearly note them as such.
Not that it matters for the rest of the combat, but you might also note that when he is 'knocked down' he drops his mace. This means he can't use it to parry against the next attacks.

Turn 4. The prone Zach Red has a dodge of "0". This is not true. Shock does not give a penalty to Dodge (see page 419 "Shock" and p.421 "Temporary Attribute Penalties"). Had he not managed to succeed his HT Stun-check however, he would have been at -4 from that.
Also I am unsure if you should halve dodge before or after modifiers. I think you are right, that it is before. So it would be 8/2 -3 = 1... not much better than before, ehe. Hmm I wonder if being prone prevents you from making a retreating dodge.... I'm gonna start a new topic about that.


Melee 3.
You might want to note that their dodges are lowered by 1 because of their encumbrance, seeing as you include the encumbrance in the example.

Turn 1. I think that you should note that he gets -4 to his attack for the 'Move and Attack', it would matter if he only had 11 or 12 in skill. Also, why is he running all the way into Reach 1? when his weapon has Reach 2 and the opponent do not?

Wohoo, now they take retreating actions. Ehe. Ok so you hadn't "forgotten" about it. But I still think it should be in the earlier examples as well, as it is one of the most fundamental combat options.

Turn 3. Spending FP for Extra Effort in combat is an optional rule.
... hey why doesn't Arthur Green retreat when he parries?


Unarmed combat 1.
Turn three. Zach is noted as suffering from Shock -4 when he is lying prone and trying to dodge. He shouldn't be. I know this is just a typo as you note that he gains shock when the punches hit home.
You note "As this was a hit to the Face sufficient to cause a Shock penalty, Zach would normally check for Knockdown and Stunning; however, he is already prone and suffering Stun."
You should still roll as a Failure by 5 or more means he passes out.

Unarmed combat 2.
You could include a few more options in this example instead of the many Deceptive attack. For instance one of them might benefit more by taking a 'Feint' manoeuvre.

Turn four. You might want to note that not only can Arthur Green not parry because he is using his hands... he can't not make a retreating dodge either (unless he lets go). Actually even if you do not want to include this, I think you should rephrase it. right now it sounds as by the rules, he can't parry as he is grappling with both arms. He could chose to parry with one arm, letting go of Zach with that arm, while maintaining a grip with the other.

---
Just wanted to add in that I really, really like your examples. I think it's a great initiative and a great tool for newbies. I plan on sending a couple of new players in my current campaign your way so that they get a better understanding on the combat rules.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Lots of responses!

Yeah, about the only reason I didn't add a Retreat to every defense was to keep it a little simpler to start off with, being the 'first' example of Melee.

Fair nits to pick - I'll clarify a bit. (I've purposely used as many optional rules from Basic as I can get my hands on, but it is a good idea to clearly label them such).

Oops - rats. Hopefully that's the only place I did that, but I'll have to check 'em all. (EDIT: it's not, I've already found others)

Not definite on the halving and modifiers, hopefully someone else can chime in on that - you can definitely Retreat while Prone though. (B377)

Good idea - I'll add a footnote.

Right again - I didn't bother putting it in, since the skill capped at 9, but you're right, the more info the better.

Um - cuz he's a berserker? Yeah, that's it - it's not because I didn't feel like making a new graphic at the time lol. I may not change it, but if I don't I'll at least add a note about it to the text pointing out it's sub-par tactics.

Excellent point - fix incoming.

This one I think is correct - "Note that Arthur can not Parry as he is Grappling with both hands; he can let go with one or both hands as a free action, but only on his turn (B370-B371)." If I'm reading B370 correctly, letting go of one or both hands is only a free action on your turn; later, in Turn Six, Arthur does let go with one hand, on his turn, so that he can Parry Zach's next attack(s).

Good to hear Maz. Just trying to do my part to make easing new players into GURPS as easy as possible!

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

All of the corrections/clarifications mentioned in the post above have been made.

I also lowered Arthur's Parry in Melee Three, Turn Three by -4, as he is trying to Parry a Morningstar (Flail, B274).

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Hehe it's a fair point. It's not really important. It's one of the points that only matters when people really start going into strategic combat. So Just leave it. :)



Oh right, seems like you are right.

Yeah, GURPS can seem a bit overwhelming for new players, so this is a great tool.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I didn't have time to look at the Range combat examples yesterday. But now that I had I have a few comments to those as well:

Ranged Combat 1.
Turn Seven. Zach's roll against Knockdown/Stunning should be at -5 as it is a major wound to the vitals (p.420).


Ranged Combat 2.
Turn 1. As noted on p.412 Scopes are variable unless otherwise noted. Meaning that he would get +1 from the scope on the first turn, +2 on turn 2 and +3 on turn 3.
So it would be:
Turn 1: 6+1 = +7
Turn 2: +2 = +9
Turn 3: +2 = +11
The result is the same but as the book clearly states that Variable is the default assumption I think it's better include that in your example.


"Zach's HP are reduced to -110 (and he has a shock penalty of -4)"
LoL, nice touch, hehehe.

You could include a single line or two about what the result would have been had Arthur missed his attack roll by 1 (hitting the torso). Just to emphasize the difference between a headshot and a hit against an armoured torso.


Ranged Combat 3.
Turn 3. When Zach fires his last shots at Arthur he should gain an additional -2 from Arthur being prone.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I'm still enjoying the combat examples and have already sent one of my players to look at Mook's site.

I think I have another nit, but this time I'm not sure I'm right. In Close Cbt Example #3, Green suffers -4 shock due to Red's first turn attacks and therefore has the shock penalty during his first action (Ready (broadsword)). However, Green is still listed as having the same shock penalty during his second turn action (Ready (knife)). My understanding is that the shock from turn #1 should go away before Green's 2nd turn action.

-- The Bearded One

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

You are right. also later on:


In Turn 3. Arthur makes a retreating parry with his knife and gets +3 thanks to his retreat. He should only get +1 as a knife is not a fencing weapon. Only fencing parries gets +3, normal parries only get +1. Arthur would be much better off making a retreating dodge.


When Arthur then takes 9 damage to vitals this is a major wound against vitals, so he should roll knockdown/stunning at -5.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

In Melee 2, Turn 2 Arthur Green suffers shock penalty (Zach waited and hit successfully).
Then, on Turn 3 Arthur is penalized again (for that same hit).

I guess the shock should not affect him on Turn 3 anymore?

-Cursed

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Damn, I always forget that one - fixed.

Actually, I think I was mistaken on Scopes when I was writing them that way - scroll back to posts #81 and #83 in this thread for more.

That'll make a great Ranged Four or Five. : )

Good catch - fixed.

Absolutely right - fixed. (Glad to hear the site is useful too!)

Fixed, and fixed.

Thanks Cursed - fixed.

Thanks again all for taking the time to read these over - I'm beginning to think I got more wrong than right!

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Hi, since I'm a noob regarding combat, i'd like to ask you one thing.
The description of deceptive attack says, that you have a penalty to your skill, when you make that attack. So could you point me out to the rule that says if your parrying is unaffected by your deceptive attack?

thx in advance.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Your Active Defences are unaffected by your own Deceptive Attacks. The Active Defences of your opponents suffer a -1 for every -2 penalty you take on your own attack.

I'm not sure that there's a page reference for this, it's just that there's nothing in the description of Deceptive Attack to suggest that your defences should suffer.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

p370 says that: "For every -2 you accept to your own skill (...)" (not attack). And since Parrying is derived from your skill, that would mean that your Parry drops. Or am I missing something?

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Generally, a penalty to skill won't affect parry, as far as I understand, unless the rules state otherwise. This is done for ease of play as much as anything else; after all, if you continually recalculate your parry or dodge after every single minus, the game will get decidedly unfun.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Yes you are, the books do not state anywhere that Deceptive attacks lower defenses!

The -2 to your own skill is *just for that attack*, not for parries, other skill uses or whatever (for example, if you deceptively attack for -4 to skill, and later during your same turn an opponent tries to feint you, in following the contest of skill you use full skill, not skill -4).

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Close combat 3, on round 3:
Zach kicks:
Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Strong), Hit Location: Vitals, Lethal Strike (B404), Kick (Arthur)

But he injures his fist:
He suffers 1 HP of injury to his right hand, and a shock penalty of -1.

(Damage tells that it should be punch?)

-Cursed

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

In Ranged 3, turn 4, Zach suffers an Major Wound and rolls for Knockdown and Stunning. The roll should have a -5 because the Wound is in the Vitals (p. B420).

Cheers,
M.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

To build on this, the penalty for Deceptive attack is similar to penalties for hit location - drive attack skill changes only.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Not exactly. p398 Hit Location clearly states that : "Each location gives penalty to attack rolls to hit that location" (not skill!). I'm a little confused now, but ill keep searching for an answer.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Fixed.

Fixed (rats, thought I found all of those!).


Regarding the Deceptive Attacks affecting Parry, I don't think that's the case either, though I haven't found a specific citation. The closest I see is B421, talking about attribute reduction (not skills): "Defensive reactions that don't require a maneuver to perform - active defenses, resistance rolls, Fright Checks, etc. - never suffer penalties for attribute reductions."

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Close Combat 1, Turn 3. Won't Arthur have to change posture to punch the prone Zack?

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

At least according to Rules-As-Written, I don't think so - the only mention I see about having to change posture for combat is B370, saying you can't grapple an opponent who is prone unless you are kneeling or prone. (Again, this is from Basic only - I'm sure MA has expanded rules on this).

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

You're right, it's in MA. If a standing man wants to use a punch or reach C weapon against a prone man he has to nearly crouch, which gives -2 to the attack.

So no actual need to change position, but it does give a penalty. I thought you did plan to introduce MA, waiting for future examples?

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

The number of additional options, rules, and even just clarifications in MA is pretty daunting, almost like a second full combat system on top of the first - I think I'm going to need to stick with Basic for quite some time (http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/...p?id=faq#other).

That doesn't mean I wouldn't post MA examples submitted by others before I get there myself though. :)

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I was looking at Close Combat 4, firstly it's not in the directory.

Turn 2: Zack's HP is 10, so wouldn't the maximum damage be 5+1, so 6 instead of 8?
Also T2: Arthurs AoA(Strong) is never resolved after Zack failed to parry.

T3: You should just have Zack punch his Lethal Strike, you say kick but you forgot to add the -2 penalty for kicking and you later say he hurt his hand.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Hiya Pesterfield -

It sounds like you were checking out Close Combat Four before I had finished it lol - that's why it wasn't in the directory or the navigation pane (and why everything was a mess).

Having said that - hooray, I finished another one! :D Close Combat Four is now complete and ready to be torn to shreds. (All of the points you made should be resolved in the completed page, Pesterfield, let me know if you notice anything amiss now).

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Close Combat 4
T1: Zack should roll against 11(-5 for face, -2 for kicking)
T2: Zack rolls at 10((-4 to hit a weapon of reach 1, -2 for Disarm, -2 for kicking)

damage over 6, Zack's HP/2 is 5+1=6

Kicking is always -2 added on top of everything else, unless you have a technique.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Zach's HP are 14, so HP/2 is 7+1=8

Gah! Fixed - on all three of the examples using Karate, thanks for catching that.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Close combat 4.
Turn 2. Zach is making a feverish retreating dodge while lying prone. He should get -3 to his parry for being prone.

Turn 3. After Zach has raise himself to a kneeling position you should remove his -4 Shock.


I still think these examples are great.
I have pointed a few new GURPS players to them. I am still waiting to hear their opinions about them. I'll post their feedback here if you like?

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Been trying to spot reference to Prone in the posts here but 116!
In Close Combat 1, being Prone is penalised at -3 but in CC2 it gets -4.
I can't find Prone in the RAW (except for knockdown = Prone), so I haven't a clue what it should be.
What page is Prone at?

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Be careful, one is for the attacker and the other for the defender - so perhaps that got you confused.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Unless I'm looking at a different place, the -3 seems to already be there ("Opts to Parry and Retreat (by rolling, B377), as well as spend 1 FP to choose Feverish Defense (optional, B357). Rolls 3d6 against his effective Parry of 15 (-3 for being Prone, +3 for Retreat, +2 for Feverish Defense) and gets 14 - he Parries")

I agree, but that the format of the examples may be unclear - Zach received the Shock penalty on Turn Two, so to me that means he suffers the Shock penalty during Turn Three, and it is gone at the start of Turn Four? "After Zach has raised himself to a kneeling position" would be Turn Four to me, since Turn Three is when he's changing posture.

Absolutely - I'd love to get any and all feedback. (And I'm glad my apparent love affair with errors hasn't dampened your enjoyment of them yet :P)

I find the Posture table on B551 to be the most convenient, it has all the related modifiers together.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Whops, you are right.

Uhm, that confused me a bit?

This is how I think it should be:
Turn 2. Zach falls prone because Arthur parries his kick with his sword.
Arthur then tries to stab him but Zach makes his retreating parry.

Turn 3. Zach rises to Kneeling. He is still suffering from the -4 Shock penalty. But as soon as he is done changing position, his turn is over and he has no more Shock anymore.

So when he has to Parry again he shouldn't be suffering from Shock. (Not that it matters for the result, but still).

It is just the "Shock: -4", from the following I would have you remove.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Hmm - still not sure, let me try once more. (Just as an aside, the Shock penalty wouldn't apply to Active Defenses anyway, just actual skill use).

Zach suffers shock during his second turn - B419, suffer shock "...on your next turn only". So, for the entirety of Zach's third turn, he is suffering shock, which is gone by the time he starts his fourth turn.

I think we're seeing the actual rule the same way, but disagreeing on how it's written in the example? Putting "Shock: -4" in the header of Zach's third turn to me means he is impaired by shock for his whole third turn; in the header of his fourth turn it's no longer there. His turn is over once he's done changing position, but up until that point the shock was in place.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

His 3rd turn is over as soon as it's over, not when his 4th turn starts.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I think of it the same way, but nontheless there shouldn't be a shock penalty during Zach's second turn but in the example it says so twice.

Well, it depends, normaly this is true but when it comes to active defenses the interpretation is a bit broader (see 3.4.1.3 In combat, when does your turn end?).

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Agreed - but the header information is a snapshot of the character's state at the beginning of their turn. The exception being when HP/FP/Shock changes, I've been in the habit of putting it in the header of the turn during which it occurs for convenience. Should I possibly have two strips of character info, "as the turn starts" at the top and "as the turn ends" at the bottom? Seemed kind of overkill, but I'm beginning to think the way I have it now isn't as clear as I thought it was. :)

That lost me - are you saying you shouldn't suffer shock penalties during the turn they're inflicted, then suffer them on the following turn, then they go away?

I've been assuming it's more like 'suffer shock penalties immediately (i.e., for the remainder of the turn in which they're inflicted) and then for the duration of the next turn'.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

This line...

TURN THREE
Zach Red HP: 6, FP: 9, Shock: -4
Maneuver: Change Posture (Prone to Kneeling)

... and the line before it are fine. Those should have the shock penalty. It is everything after this that should have the shock penalty removed.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Fixed (I think/hope/pray :) )

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

That looks right to me.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Cool - I appreciate everyone continuing to beat their head against the wall when I just don't seem to be getting it. Maybe I should stop working on these with the tv on in the background. :P

Next one in the pipe is Ranged Four ... same as Ranged Three, but the shooter misses by one so gets a Torso hit instead of a Head shot.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Yes, that is what I am saying.

But you quotet the RAW yourself on this toppic "Whenever you suffer injury, reduce your DX and IQ [...] on your next turn only" (B419).
Which in my reading implies, that you don't suffer from it neither the turn you wehre hit nor two turn after it - but only on your next turn.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Fair enough - unless I'm mistaken though, this distinction should never actually come up in-game (though still good to hash it out).

If your opponent damages you and inflicts shock, you have no opportunity to do anything that would incur the shock penalty until your next turn (when all agree the shock penalty would be in effect); if you damage your opponent and take damage that inflicts shock on yourself (say from attacking unarmed), you still have no opportunity to do anything that would incur the shock penalty until your next turn.

The only possibility might be if you attack your opponent and are interrupted by a Wait-Attack and suffer damage that inflicts shock...but I would imagine in that case that resuming your interrupted turn is the same as 'your next turn', so even then there's no chance of incurring the shock penalty until your next chance to declare a maneuver.

Um, don't mind all that, mostly just 'thinking out loud' through the keyboard - the only place this should come up is on the 'action headers' in the examples, I agree I shouldn't put the shock penalty there until the following turn.

(Combat is beginning to remind me of my heavy Magic: the Gathering days, scrutinizing 'when does an interrupt resolve', 'when does an instant occur', etc. :D)

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I agree with you, for myself it doesn't make very much sense to delay the effects (shock) of the wound you just suffered to your next turn - of course it effects you immediately - unless I miss some special neurological mechanism that delays the effects of shock.
This is the way I play it in-game myself.

But during this discussion I reexamined the rules and just following the strikt word - it actually would mean that shock effects apply only on your next turn - which leaves very litte room for interpretation. And since you try to striktly model your examples after RAW I thought it worth being pointed out.

So after all my wish of clarification has grown and I would very much appreciate an official ruling from Kromm or someone the like.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

You may not have the opportunity to do anything, but you may well have the need to roll against shock-affected DX or IQ- resistance checks against spells or afflictions, losing balance from an attack, perception checks (if Will/Per also suffer -4, which I'd say they do), Quick Contests, resisting feints, etc.

And that's also why it has to be defined for "the whole of your next turn", as from your first action in the turn after being injured until you can act again the turn after that, not just for the part of your turn where you take an action.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

This is possibly one of the aspects of the game where playability trumps realism. It's simpler to keep track of shock on your turn rather than based on when you were injured, especially if you have been hit by several attacks afflicting shock.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

So you do agree on the very strikt interpretation of RAW (B419) that shock applies only during the next turn after you suffered damage? And by next turn the time between choosing your maneuver until you chose your next maneuver is meant.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Aha! Doh! Tables... Thank you8-)

So if you attack whilst prone you get -4 but your defense is at -3.
So Close Combat example 1, Turn 2 (?) when Zach is prone after the injury to his hand his defence is actually at -3 for being Prone PLUS -4 for being Stunned (B548-550)... Yup, it's in there now. Nasty:)

If your HP is 10, crippling an extremity takes >1/3 HP or 4 wound points , yes? Is it dismembered (destroyed, irrevocably crushed etc) at >2/3 HP, i.e. 7 wp, or 2xCrippling wp, i.e. 8 wp?

How about if the damage was 7 from a pi- weapon, i.e. 3.5 wp... Crippled hand/foot or just darn close?

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Forgive me if I've missed something but would it make a difference to your discussion that the person suffering the shock does so for his full turn after he is injured, whenever it is, i.e. whether this "second" or the next: if fast person hits first, slow person suffers shock this second (and until his next action); if slow person hits first, then Fast person is in shock from next second...

Is it simpler to say, you're in Shock from the instant you are hurt until you have completed your next Action?

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I think so yes. That's how I use the rules... because it's simpler.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

That's the way I play it in-game as well, but for the examples I think we're trying to ferret out how exactly the rules are intended to work, as opposed to the way we make them work.

EDIT: Seeking counsel from the community at large: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=537205

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Gah - this is at least the second time I've done this, most uncool. I could've sworn I checked the FAQ, but there it is, clear as day:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html#SS3.4.5.2
"You take shock penalties the moment you get hurt, and suffer them until the end of your next turn."

Good enough for me.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

How about a melee expample with a charging char with shield agains a waiting spear man?

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Good idea. What if the charging party is a knight on horseback? You could include Mounted Combat this way.

Cheers,
M.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Some 2:2 or 2:3 encounters would also be helpful.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Good suggestions, thanks. I am keeping track of suggested examples.

Multiple combatants seem like a good idea, but I was thinking more like 1:2 or 1:3 - not sure how 2:2 in one example would be any different than 1:1 in two examples?

Just popped in to let everyone know I'm still out here chipping away when I can. :)

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Very nice; I have bookmarked the site :-)

Any chance this sort of thing could be pitched to Steve Jackson as part of the e23 lines? I am thinking a simple "combat tutorial" like this in a printble PDF form would be pretty cool.

(sorry if this has already been asked)

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I'm in the very early stages of working on a 2:2 combat which is one fighter (meat-shield) and one mage (backpack) versus two zombies. I'd be very appreciative if you'd host the example when it is ready to be checked for RAW accuracy. (Well, not total RAW because it also uses spells from Magic.)

-- The Bearded One

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Glad you find it useful KDLadage!

I've toyed with the idea of submitting to e23, but that wouldn't be for a while - I imagine I would need many more examples, across a wider variety of combats.

I will be converting the individual examples to PDF at some point soon though - quite a few folks have mentioned wanting copies of the examples for their off-line players.

Sounds good The Bearded One, I'd be happy to host it with the others - the closer you can keep the format to what I'm already using, the better. :)

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Just a thought. You could do the pdf like a test, lets say green will do a step and attack red will do all out defensive with retreat rolls 15,12,9,7 so a reader should try to figure the result of the round and then check the result with the normal explanation.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Pecete, why complicate straight forward examples like that?

If you do make them PDFs I hope they also stay, and you keep adding to, simple .html pages. It's no hassle to open PDFs, but I'd rather not bother.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

An example using grappling rules would probably be a good idea.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Close Combat Two has a bit of grappling, though there are certainly many more options to explore:

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/...dex.php?id=two

PDF would definitely be an 'extra', available to download, not a replacement in any way.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Update: added a fourth Ranged example, a variation of Ranged Two, using APHC rounds for a hit to the torso instead of a head shot. Hopefully errors were kept to a minimum - have at it! :)

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/...ex.php?id=four

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Don't you mean reduced by 7? Zach only has HP10 to start with.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Oh no I *didn't*!

Thanks Pesterfield - fixed. :)

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I'm sure I'm admitting my lack of GURPS 4e geekiness with this question, but.... In Ranged Cbt #4, on the 2nd and 3rd sniper shots, the shooter gets the +6 Accuracy bonus but not the +3 Scope bonus; why?

The rest of Ranged #4 looked quite good to me. You may want to put in a page reference pointing to special effects of crippling the leg or potential special effects for the face shot (if the target hadn't died).

-- The Bearded One

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Rules for scopes are given on B412, I've summarized a bit here:

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/...?id=faq#scopes

Basically you have to Aim for a number of turns equal to the bonus to get the bonus ... so you have to Aim a +3 scope for 3 turns, a +5 scope for 5 turns, etc.

Your geek-cred is safe. :)

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Could you guys check out these temp PDFs and let me know what you think? PDF isn't exactly my forte, I basically just hit 'Create From File' and let it do its thing - don't really want to spend much time having to reformat and prettify each one, I'd rather be working on new examples.

One has color, one is black and white except for the character names - I thought leaving the colored 'boxes' around each character might defeat the purpose of PDFing them, namely ease in printing:

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/pdftest01.pdf

http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/pdftest02.pdf

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

The first one (with full color boxes) looks prettier, but the second will be easier to print for most folks.

-- The Bearded One

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

I'm not sure if anyone pointed this out, or even if I am correct. But in close combat four, Zach moves in and attacks twice. Arthur retreated and dodged twice. I believe you can only retreat once per turn, so he should have received the +3 dodge bonus for one dodge, not two.

Re: Examples of 4e Combat
 

Thanks for that Daverius, but that one's actually correct - according to B377, "If [your attacker] has multiple attacks (e.g., from ... All-Out Attack ...), your retreat does not put you beyond the reach of his remaining attacks. However, you get your retreating bonus on all active defense rolls against all of his attacks until your next turn."

Had to look it up to be sure though - point out possible errors any time!

Also, I was inadvertently still giving Arthur his rifle's Accuracy bonus on rounds he wasn't Aiming in Ranged Example Four ... that's been fixed.