Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

I'm finally working on updating my Rainbow Sheep adventure for use with Dungeon Fantasy, and I have a question regarding monster stats.

Here is what I have for a Jaguar:

ST: 16 HP: 16 Speed: 6.0
DX: 13 Will: 10 Move: 12 (14 sprint)
IQ: 4 Per: 12
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8 Parry: N/A DR: 1
Bite (13): 1d-2 cut
Claw (13): 1d-4 cut
Traits: Acute Hearing 2; Catfall; Combat Reflexes; Discriminatory Smell; Flexibility; Night Vision 6; Parabolic Hearing 2; Perfect Balance; Racial Talent 2 (climbing); Ultrahearing; Vibration Sense (air; based on hearing); Bad Sight 2 (Motion Sensitive); Bad Temper (12-); Callous; Careful; Colorblindness; Compulsive Pouncing (12-); Nosy
Skills: Brawling –15; Climbing –19; Intimidation –11; Jumping –13; Stealth –15; Survival –12; Swimming –11; Wrestling –15
Class: Animal
Notes:

Does this look right? Bite and claw damage have been modified for Brawling skill. My biggest concern is with the Feats; I think I cut those that are not relevant to the adventure, but I wonder if there is anything else that might not be necessary.

Ideas?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

It should have the Feral Animal meta-trait, presumably.

Callous, Ultra Hearing, Flexibility, and Vibration Sense all seem odd.

ST 16 is stronger than a tiger (ST 15). Are jaguars stronger than tigers?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

Callous - have you ever watched a cat with a mouse? 'nuff said.

Ultra hearing - cats can hear ultrasonic noises, much like dogs, mice, and many other mammals.

Flexibility - well, they are extraordinarily lithe.

Vibration sense - their vibrissae (whiskers) will mimic this up close. Otherwise it looks like Ed is basing the ability on a variation I wrote up
http://www.panoptesv.com/RPGs/Ads-n'...e-hearing.html
which is meant to mimic the way cats and some dogs can target prey within pouncing distance by hearing alone.

In the GURPS campaigns rulebook, animals are assigned ST scores based entirely on their weight, so that at around 160 lbs or so you get average human ST of 10. Cats are more muscular than humans of the same weight, however. Since Ed seems to be basing his jaguar on a writeup I've go on my website, this would put a human weight cat at around ST 14. A half ton Amur tiger would have a ST of around 27, while one of those human-sized island tigers from Indonesia would be around ST 14.

Luke

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

I would replace colorblindness with a Quirk (red-green colorblind).

Isn't base damage for ST 16 1d+1? With -2 for an unarmed attack and +1 for Brawling skill, shouldn't this work out to 1d cut for claws and bite? Am I missing something?

Luke

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

I have no idea where the OP got his numbers from, but there's no "-2 for unarmed attack" in GURPS.

There is a -1 for a punch, but not for a kick or a bite. Bite damage should be 1d+1+1 cut (1d+2), and claw damage should be 1d+1-1+1 cut (1d+1).

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

He didn't put Claws in the Trait list. I'd assume it should still be Sharp Claws. Clawing should be thr-1, with Brawling countering that minus, so base ought to be thr cut.

Edit: Ya ninjaed me again, B :) Bite is thr-1 though, so the damage should match that from the claws [left Sharp Teeth off, also].

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

How are you calculating ST? If it's based on weight, the ST should be between 11-14 (150-350 lbs.) The largest jaguars have been measured at under 350 lbs, but ST 16 -> 512 lbs. Also, it doesn't matter if you've done your own calculations, but the official 3e stats would have DX 14; IQ 4; HT 15, and they mostly convert straight over to 4e.

For ST you'd be better off giving it ST 11-14 and using Striking ST to bring its attacks up to an effective ST 16.

Also, as far as I'm aware, jaguars aren't colorblind. (But I could be mistaken about that.)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

You're right, my bad. It should be -1. Serves me right for posting early in the morning before I wake up properly and without consulting my books.

The melee weapon table on pg. B271 lists sharp teeth as thr-1 cut. With the brawling bonus, it would bring it back to straight thr cut, or 1d+1 cut.

On the other hand, jaguars have the strongest jaws for their size of any of the large cats. In my writeup, I gave them enough Jaw ST to raise the damage by 1.

Luke

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

The cats (with the exception of cheetahs) are quite strong for their size. A typical 160 lb jaguar or cougar or leopard will be stronger than a typical 160 lb man, not just in terms of striking ST but also in terms of lifting ST - witness the leopards that haul prey weighing twice the cat's weight up into trees. Exactly how much stronger is open to debate, I tend to peg it at ST 13 to 14 for a man sized cat. This puts a 220 lb jaguar at around ST 16.

HT of real cats is quite clearly not 15. They are prone to diseases and parasites and infections, they do not have an amazing resistance to traumatic injury, and they have nowhere near the athletic endurance of a typical human. Nor can I see any arguments for assuming cats have amazingly good bases or defaults for HT based skills.

DX is arguable. On pg. B14, a DX of 13 to 14 is described as "feline grace", so either DX of 13 or 14 would be a reasonable choice for the base value.

Luke

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

Be careful assuming that 3e stats convert to 4e without a hitch. We knocked some of the crazier DX scores down; former scores of 15-16 are now down at 14 or less (sometimes a lot less). IQ went down a level for quite a few creatures so that we could compress animals into the IQ 1-5 scale between IQ 0 (nonsentient) and IQ 6 (sapient). We dropped HT a lot -- HT 14+ is just crazy for natural creatures, and most animals are HT 10-12 in 4e, with a strong bias toward the HT 10 end, unless they're famously robust. The main reason for high HT in 3e was to give a suitable HP base, as many beasts were given stats before "split HT/HP" was invented (this wasn't always part of the game, believe it or not); with HP = ST, and HP being separately variable in any event, this isn't necessary in 4e.

Thus, something described as ST 30, DX 15, IQ 5, HT 14/18 in 3e is very, very likely to be more like ST 18, DX 13, IQ 4, HT 12 in 4e.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

The jaguar's stats are based upon what lwcamp posted on his website.

Thanks for all the input...I'll fiddle with it some more when I get home from work tonight.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/animalia.html

This site may be a good reference for some animal stats...

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

Concerning the inclusion of Callous: Should that trait be reserved for in-species relations, like Appearance?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

Wife finally came down on ya huh? Oh God, I just reread it. Do not read to much into that. xD

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

I wouldn't say so, at least not for solitary animals. It might be temporarily negated in a mother with cubs/kittens/whatever, but that would be it. Humans are social creatures, but many many beasties are not and really don't like other members of their own species very much.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

Much as I like jaguars, I ultimately (for now, anyway) decided to go with a tiger as the big cat since I already had RAW stats for it and it fills pretty much the same niche in my setting anyway.

In fact, I'm converting most of the beasties into critters that appear in the books. Not all of them get that treatment, though; I wish I had RAW (or even accepted semi-canonical) stats for animated furniture...

Yeah. Not only does she really want a chance to play this adventure under the GURPS rules, but she is after me to convert the entire Ruins of Dunwyke adventure (of which Rainbow Sheep is just a part) into GURPS rather than just bits and pieces of it.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

I still haven't gotten over the split ST/HT stat from Fantasy Trip.

Four stats? When will this madness end?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

The closest would probably the note under the Dancing Object spell (M144), which gives objects ST15.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

That might work. I had been thinking more along the lines of a "wood golem" kind of construct...

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but I think you misunderstood my question. I'm objecting to the post about a cat toying with a mouse, and asking why Callous would even have an effect between different species. Just because predators don't care if their food is pretty or charming doesn't automatically make them Callous. I'm not saying that predators can't be Callous with their own kind, just that the cat/mouse example doesn't seem like a legitimate test for it.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

It's not that they don't care if it is pretty or charming, they don't care if it suffers. Horribly. Due to the cat slowly torturing it to death. This indicates a particular lack of empathy for other living things that is not found in, for example, most emotionally healthy people. Yeah, we kill things and eat them, or even kill things and don't eat them, but when we are personally involved in the killing we usually try to make it as quick and painless as possible. Except for those of us with Callous (don't care) or Sadism (enjoy it).

Of course, you can check how cats treat others of their own kind. Contrary to common myths they do have social hierarchies, and along with this comes means of social signaling and establishing dominance in non-violent ways (which occasionally break down, leading to yowling cat-fights). From my observations, cats may show affection and concern for certain favored individuals, but do seem callous towards anyone they do not know or don't particularly care about. Then there are well documented behavioral traits such as toms practicing mass infanticide of kittens that are not their own.

Besides, haven't you ever petted a cat that responds by kneading your inadequately protected legs with its sharp claws?

In any event, the description of Callous on pg. B125 just seems to suit cats. Yes, I own cats, I love my cats, I just have no illusions that they actually care if I suffer or am in pain.

Luke

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

Some (usually very dominant) females will do this too, if the local feline population is very dense.

I've known the very rare cat that did seem to care. One would curl up beside ill people and purr for them, when normally she was not a very cuddling cost of cat. OTOH, most just get annoyed because sick people are even worse house slaves than healthy ones.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

Whether or not cats possess Callous is entirely beside my point. Predators simply don't care about being cruel to their prey, not because they can't empathize, but because they don't realize it's a being like them. All they see is a walking meal, and in some cases a puzzle that wiggles and squeaks as it's being softened up.

I don't think it's appropriate to apply Callous to inter-species relations if the brains involved aren't capable of contemplating such things in the first place. If you do, then you'll have to make dogs Chummy. And then it raises the question of why animals -- the ones that you've made capable of empathizing like humans -- aren't also affected by inter-species Appearance and Charisma.

P.S.: I think you're overly generous in your assessment of people's empathy. Just go to an old farm where the cat population has to be thinned, or any chicken preparation facility to see the multitude of disgusting games that ordinary folks come up with to amuse themselves -- well-rounded family men and professionals, every one.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

It does sound like you're questioning whether cats (or animals in general) can have Callous. As a behavioral characteristic specific to a species, I don't have a problem with assigning it as a placeholder Quirk, at least. Your first paragraph (second sentence on) looks a great deal like the text description of Callous, in fact.

Chummy might be a candidate as a 'placeholder' also, for some animals... dunno *shrug*

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

umm isn't the fur trait missing....

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

If the brains aren't capable of contemplating such things, they have Low Empathy. That's pretty much the basics of Low Empathy right there.

I do (at least for dogs = wolves, domestic dogs, dholes, and cape hunting dogs. Jackals, coyotes, foxes, and the like don't get this). And sense of duty (pack) as well. Personally, I think it makes the templates a lot more interesting to add in some psychological "color" - different types of animals really do have interesting species specific behaviors and noting these on the templates can help people role-play them.

Appearance - why would they be? For most animals, attractiveness is based more on having the proper pheromones than what you look like. It is only us highly visually oriented species that are likely to pay a lot of attention of symmetric features and blemish-free skin.

Charisma - being able to communicate effectively and sway people to your ideas is not much use on things that don't think symbolically and cannot conceptualize the ideas you are trying to get across.

Luke

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

Dogs ARE Chummy, according to the RAW. Look at the Large Guard Dog stats.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Animal Stats
 

OK, I think the Vibration Sense is overkill to represent whiskers, we should not forget that whiskers are nothing else than hairs with a sensory root that detects when the whiskers move... so here is my take on Whiskers (There are several ideas what whiskers are good for and probably not all are true for all animals having whiskers):

An animal with whiskers always knows if it can squeeze though an opening.
Feature (Never gets stuck in an opening because it always knows whether it will fit through or not) [0]

The whiskers may help animals to determin windspeed, and thereby helping to calculate the origin of a scent...
Perk (+2 to smelling, but only to determine the location of the source) [1]

The whiskers guide the animals along walls (they predict the curvature so they can actually follow a wall pretty fast). This is probably only true for animals with relatively long whiskers compared to their body size (e.g. rats). Humans can theoretically do this too, using their hands... BUT: (1) Are too much afraid to run into something (2) Are big and cannot break as fast as a rat can. (3) cannot automatically calculate the curvature of the wall and therefore not predict well how the wall continues)
Perk (Can walk at half speed along a wall in the dark, whitout crashing into an object) [1]

Whiskering: Some animals can move their whiskers actively (e.g. rats) while others cant (e.g. cats) and feel up shapes. Basically it does what humans do with hands for animals withouth Fine Manipulaters.
Perk (Can determine shape of objects by whiskering) [1]
These Animals might even qualify for Sensitive Touch (However they cant feel residual heat, hairs are dead but shape, texture, vibrations)

This is pretty much what scientist believe the whiskers can do. Because the whisker array in all animal is basically the same (though not all can actively move them (whiskering) and not all have the same length probortional to body size) the theory is that they share one basic function (A week ago I was at a talk by a leading expert on this field and her assuption was that the sensing of wind is the common function since all animals with whiskers also have excelent sense of smell) and some have extended functions...

Powering Up Whiskers
Well give them Vibration Sense so they can actually sense at range (something that is not belived to be within the scope of whiskers)