Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

So I've been tinkering with DF magery for a while now, and I've been finding a few other spells that need modification or removal to avoid imbalance.

Inspired Creation (M115): This spell pretty much begs for abuse in any game; an assistant with Major Healing, or just enough skill to do it on yourself, makes the HP cost trivial, and means that with a pretty minimal investment in skill you can turn out a Very Fine blade every day. It's a spell I happen to like very much, but it has the potential to easily shift Dungeon Fantasy's focus from 'We kill things, take their stuff, and sell it' to 'I make stuff and sell it', which isn't the goal. This is probably best left in the hands of the same kinds of NPC sages who enchant items.

Flesh to Stone (M53): While Dungeon Fantasy already covers Create spells, Flesh to Stone and a few other spells have the same potential to unbalance the economy. While I feel Flesh to Stone should retain its permanent nature, I would remove the ability of this spell to turn a subject to metal at double cost; otherwise a player is liable to start up an Iron Rabbit factory. While permanent Flesh to Stone has some chilling implications for the 'cutesy stone garden animal' industry, that's enough of a niche market that the economy shouldn't break.

Earth to Stone (M51): As with Flesh to Stone, I would remove the ability of this spell to create metal, or restrict metal created with the spell to the same one-day duration imposed on Create spells.

Essential <foo> (various): Many of the "Essential" spells can be used to transmute existing objects into much more powerful forms; like Create spells and Earth to Stone above, these transmutations should be restricted to a one-day duration to avoid economic impact. Casting Essential Wood on his shield could be a daily ritual for a Druid!

That's all I can think of off the top of my head; anyone else found spells that don't work well in the Dungeon Fantasy genre?

Edit: Fixed spell name in Flesh to Stone. Seriously, how could I screw that up that many times and not catch it?

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

I think you mean Flesh to Stone here. :D

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

I have no recollection of these events, Senator.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

This is an easy fix: count them as if they were Enchantment spells, i.e. they're available to NPC enchanters only. This would allow you to buy a steel bokken enchanted as a staff, but you couldn't make them yourself. There, case solved!

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

I ban Rive.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

I'm inclined to ban the entire Technology college, or at least reserve it for specialized techno-mages rather than general mages.

Either way, Rebuild is either entirely banned, or restricted so you can only rebuild ONE example of the smashed item, and possibly the rest of the fragments are disintegrated as well to stop creative PCs from cutting the hand off a gold idol to clone it.

Alternately, I might require the raw materials for Rebuild to be present to be encorporated into the final object, so if you have a 500 lb gold idol, and you have 1 lb of finger, you need 499 lbs of gold on hand to Rebuild it.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

OP. Seriously if these spells are a problem in you game then you are doing it wrong.

IF somebody's trying to set up a company to mass produce and sell iron rabbits you should have a ravening horde of 11,346 orcs attack.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

I deliberately left some vagueness in because that's in keeping with the kind of old-school game I'm aping . . . but I think that only a dummy of a GM would let the presence or absence of the word "Create" in the spell name determine whether a spell is subject to the one-day limit for "Create" spells. :) The relevant feature is permanent goods coming out of magic. Magic can't do that in dungeon fantasy.

All the rest, I don't see as a big deal.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

If my PCs started trailing of to become magical entrepeneurs instead of dungeon hackers, I'd pretty much let them.

In 3e, one of my mage characters and his coleage (another player character) discovered that they could turn Animations, Golems and such into essential stone ones. This was before the event of "adamant" and "orichalcum" in GURPS... we pretty much invented it on our own.
The campaing was heavely magical, and the characters had lots of fun figuring out how to best use their inventions...
Soul Golem's main limitation is it's unhealing nautre... but triple DR and HP made the characters into demigods, but getting enough resources and stuff to actually do the enchantment was a big challenge. We also had a "headless essential stone turtle" created through Animation that served as a sort of tank/dwelling.
This was a big revolution in the mages guild, and the campaing followed more or less on the "arms race" and "research" vein for a while. But it was lots of fun.

I guess what I'm saying is... sure, limit the spells, but if the characters are going a different direction than traditional DF... let them. Don't force a certain concept on them just for the heck of it.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

Note also that shameless spell abuse is standard dungeon fantasy. I distinctly remember schemes to get stupidly rich using only second-level spells in AD&D.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

In fact I would almost say that you are going against standard genre expectations if your wizard didnt know how to become fabulously wealthy with a handful of spells, although trying to get points for a gm pact to obey that particular genre conviction might be a bit difficult ;).

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

Nah, you get points for it. You don't use those spells to get stupidly rich, and the GM doesn't require you to buy Wealth, so in effect you're getting points equal to the cost of the Wealth you would otherwise have.

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The Continual Flashlight... made it a staple of our merchantile for adventurers. Made millions in Waterdeep (right outside the Pit tavern) and Cormyr.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

My issue is more this: In a world where 'Inspired Creation' is common - and since the Wizard template includes an option for Wild Talent (magic), it can't be that rare - why are Very Fine swords expensive at all? Should a weapon created with the spell only exist for a day, even though the spell didn't create the item?

Your point is taken about the lack of 'Create' in the names of other spells mentioned, but if some spells will be explicitly banned in the name of preserving the world's economy, I think it's beneficial to examine the rest of Magic in the same light.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

I don't think many people who play cliche dungeon fantasy worry about the economy. In D&D I'd describe game world as "NPCs obeying some unwritten principles that keep the economy working and the PCs screwing everything up to the DM's frustration."
I particularly like the note on Magic about plausability, consistency and whatnot. In order for the economy to work right the GM and the players will need at least a bit of compromise.
Any setting that has common magic will not work like our world (medieval or not) by a long shot. It's not just the create spells, you can screw it up in several other ways.
If you devise wave after wave of countermeasures, you end up with a setting much like D&D's settings: inconsistent and unbelievable... OR teaming with magic, flying elevators and what have you...

Edit: Certainly there's a "middle-ground" between no magic and everyday magic. But if you look at it, the assumption that society and economy are unchanged works on the lower end of the magic level. With no magic you have medieval society, with a bit of magic you're already moving away from it. And with the ammount of magic you see in most fantasy games you'll need to vigorously chop of your disbelief and throw it in the flames... "suspension" doesn't even begin to cut it...

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

That still doesn't explain why Very Fine weapons, in DUNGEON FANTASY, which assumes a fair amount of magic, are still 9x as expensive as regular ones. Between the ease of magical healing and the reliability of this spell, I would expect them to be cranked out relatively easily.

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Sorry, it wasn't meant to explain. It was a statement more like "dungeon fantasy normaly doesn't explain stuff, it has inconsistent settings that survive only due to oversight from GMs and players".
I don't find it any more mind-boggling than having a dragon inside a dungeon. What the hell's he eating? Why is there an orc army in there? Where do they get their food from? How are all these mutualy genocidal races living next to each other in some surreal underground hotel, that has weird and incompatible guests in each room?
The heroes themselves are 1-in-a-million. Many times they are themselves inconsistent... the priest of the life godess that doesn't have any trouble killing hundreds of life forms.

My point is that if you start picking on specific details of dungeon fantasy and trying to make it more believable you'll end up with one of two things...
1) a less fantastic, more believable setting that isn't dungeon fantasy
2) an internaly confuse setting with tons of custom rules to "make it work" and rationalizations of why it works the way it does...

I'm a big fan of the first, that's why I don't generaly play classic DF... but occasionaly I do play it, and when I do I've already commited to ignore the settings inconsistencies and loopholes, and don't expect it to be reasonable.

So the answer to "Why isn't it cheaper." would be "Just because!", much like a lot of games with trading in them have fixed prices where you can run from A to B and make a profit without altering market value, supply or demand.

Be that as it may, if you want to fix it... you'll either have to fix the magic system, tailoring it to your needs (that's a nice first step you took here, but you'll need a LOT more work, and players might surprise you anyhow), or you're going to have to adapt the economics to fit the settings mechanics. Wich means massive inflation, devalue of several items that can be created from magic and derived therefrom. Unemployment, guild revolt against mages at first, and then monopoly of pretty much every craft by them. Technological (or Thaumatological) modification of tools, gear, transportation, housing, etc... with magic that common, you'll need legislation for it, it pays off to create zero-mana prisons, high and very-high mana niches are mapped out and created if possible (wich only increases the ammount of change going on)... sumarizing: you get a very complex and chaotica "Magic Revolution".

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Suspension of Disbelief, this is the SoD we venture on many of our games. Once you start rationalizing most Fantasy or Sci-Fi genre conventions the things start to fall apart rather quickly.

Like why don't the mages all get together and take over the world? I mean really.

This happens n Sci-fi too. I'm working up the History for my cyberpunk game and I keep trying to plan out EVERY DETAIL logically but at the end of the day if I don't want to go crazy I have to just make some leaps without the logic. Same here....Fine Swords are expensive, even though logically they should be cheap as dirt, it doesn't make sense nor does it need to. If your players are that jaded then maybe they need a good does of GURPS: Horribly Realistic Medieval Europe, free plague with every new 25 point character.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

This is what I was saying, just with more words ;)

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Is this the scheme to threaten rich people with casting Melf's Acid Arrow at their genitals unless they paid up in cold, hard cash?

Or did I just have slightly more evil get-rich-quick schemers in my gaming group?

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Inefficient ones.

And people who are casting Continual Light themselves are doing it the expensive, hard way. Use Summon Monster to conjure up a lantern archon, who can cast Continual Light at will, and get it to bling everything up like crazy.

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It's 20×. And the reason is that the Armorers' Guild and Wizards' Guild have a deal. The wizards don't *** the armorers out of big profits on nice swords, and the armorers give the wizards exclusive rights to meteoric iron wizard manacles and prisons. Upstart wizards who mess with The Arrangement get stomped by chaps with really nice swords and then put in a special prison where their powers don't work.

Plus, magically forged sword lose their keen edge after a day. That, too.

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Ah, but if you start down this trail you'll soon be bombarded with questions like...

Why?
The wizards could just take over, and there probably isn't that much metoric iron to justify this. And it would be a much more clever move to just hire a few "rogue" smiths into the wizards guild to do shackles and whatnot. However inconvenient dealing with smiths is, the wizards have the upper hand. Why would they not just monopolize the entire thing? Something like the convenants of Ars Magica with all sorts of servants.

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You mean, "Why are they colluding to ensure both parties gets lots of profits without profit-reducing competition from each other?"

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Maybe so, but it's more fun to roleplay. :D

Back in my day, we didn't have lantern archons. Or bling. All we had was that village of Hommlet and a dinky keep on the borderlands and NPCs capable of killing off wayward PCs but not of solving their own problems.

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Actually, I didn't even really get why this was such a big deal, providing only that they were quite inexpensive goods, such that the 'metal' variation on Earth to Stone is only able to make base metals, not anything particularly valuable. So you can make some water, or some dirt, or even some crude lumps of stone or lead or something... doesn't mean that you will set up shop in town rather than continue to adventure. The more advanced Create Object spells still have that limitation of a living thing continuing to touch the item, right?

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

Here's a real good shorthand answer for all these questions:

"A wizard did it."

Followed closely in utility by:

"A wizard didn't do it." If they ask, "why not?", the answer is, "I don't know, but I wouldn't advise asking them, for they are subtle and quick to anger."

It's quite possible that nobody's ever thought of the Inspired Weapon/healing combo before now, and even if there's some magesmith somewhere churning out the Very Fine weapons, he sees no reason to charge less than the going rate, and doesn't do enough of them to disturb the overall market.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

Actually, stone and lead are expensive in a medieval-style economy. All "base" metals are valuable, they're useful and involve a LOT of effort to tear out of the ground and smelt.

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Oh, sure, in a *realistic* medieval-style economy. In DF, though, I don't much care what happens to the costs of stone and lead as long as it doesn't affect the cost of any of the adventurers' gear! If the local village or town has an 'unrealistic' number of nicely built brownstone buildings with lead casements on the windows, rather than rudely thatched huts, it's no sweat off my back. Let the rare big city have humungous stone walls and towers, etc. - it's fantasy!

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I would leave the ability to make iron rabbits in, however, if anyone tries to melt them then they turn back to flesh. This means that smiths will melt metal before they pay for it. There are still some exploits but not good ones.

Re: Unsuitable spells for Dungeon Fantasy
 

I nominate Mortiques Eliminating Illuminating Immolation.

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If you can do lead you can do tin, and likely copper and iron. Tin is expensive. As I've noted previously on these forums, if Earth to Stone was known in the bronze age, there's no reason for the iron age to have ever come along.

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No, I mean "Why do the mages not grab the market that they are much more qualified at (bigger effective skill, very very low cost materials) and to defend (Eat fireballs!). And drive the smiths out of work entirely, thereby ceasing monopoly of the market."
Why would you buy a regular sword from a smith, if you can buy a very fine one with a few basic enchants from mages at the same price? How would a smith support himself until he's skilled enough to pop the odd sword that can marginally compare to mage-swords?

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Well first of all then the wizards would then be stuck making swords all day rather than conducting research or making enchantments that are useful from a wizards prospective. Then of course is the question of why should a Wizard undercut the market significantly if people are perfectly willing to spend 20x normal price for a very fine weapon already why should I sell them for less? Just as importantly why should I crank them out by the dozen cheaply when I could probably sell one or two a season for their premium price make about as much money and still have time for my magic studies and enchantments.

Then comes the question of why do I want to replace a perfectly well functioning guild of smiths? Especially since if the plan works and the mage guild effectively drives the smiths out of work then you also have to start doing all the mundane every day jobs smiths do as well. Such as cranking out horse shoes, iron nails for buildings, creating braces, repair work, etc,etc. Again wizards with the right spells could still do all of this but not without using up even more of their day. Especially since more people are going to be needing nails made far more frequently than swords of any quality.

Then you have to look at the potential of politics to muddy the waters as well. Armies which are both equipped with V.F. weapons are going to be a pain to armor effectively since the bonus to damage is going to eat through light armor as if it wasnt their and even heavy armor is likely going to have to be enchanted as well if you actually want to consistently stop damage. The alternative being higher fatality and serious injuries after a fight.

Secondly it gives commoners and militia forces potentially access to weapons equally as deadly as most high lords and knights weapons which is likely going to make said commoner and militia forces a bit more uppity than a lot of medieval lords would appreciate.

Because the Smiths hired Bards to run a smear campaign about the dangers of using mage smithed weapons ;). Seriously though a player probably would in a heart beat if he had that option and the money to do so. Of course that same player would probably fork out the money for a V.F. weapon as well at the normal Smiths prices as well if he had it and then hire a mage to enchant it as well, creating opportunities for both guilds to fleece adventurers out of their cash.

Making hammers, nails, horse shoes, kitchen knives etc, of course that mage doesn't get a free ride either, the smith needs to learn just a couple of skills fairly well, compared to how many spells does a mage need to know to do the inspired creation/heal combo, plus the number of spells needed to keep him safe from irrate smiths hiring fighters using very cheap Very Fine weapons to kill said wizard. Plus the normal utility/every day spells that wizards find make their lives much easier.

Remember the 250 point templated wizards are going to be exceptional wizards most mages are probably not any more points than a commoner and are in the 25-50 point range

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Commoners have to be prey for house cats, remember. That isn't very many points.

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We are all Ultharians.

Maybe that was what Fort was on about...

heh

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The mental image this summons is aquite amusing. "Elroy! We need to leave town. I just saw a cat in the forest!" "May the gods help us."

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I suspect that gear made with Inspired Creation would cost more than people think. Sure, with good magic healing around a 5HP wound can be repaired pretty quickly via Major Healing. However, it'll still hurt a lot, which is a major disincentive. Heck, for many older craftsmen that'd be a major wound. Now, while the rules don't address this, I'd be very surprised if the longterm use of this technique didn't result in chronic injuries and premature physical deterioration from not-quite-right healing, and so on. I'm certain it'd cause very considerable psychological damage, such as post-traumatic stress disorder.

On top of that, you need both a craftsman and a mage, and the spell is rather time consuming (though profitable).

BTW, it's possible to read the spell's cost as having to be paid all at once (indeed, I think that's the sensible way to read it, given it's not cast until the work is completed), and that means big powerstones or ceremonial casting is required for any major project.

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Nosforontu made a lot of good points - there are more downsides to forcing smiths out of the sword business than benefits from doing so. Plus politics - maybe royal charters divide up the work and its bad news to undercut the king's decrees (you can't just fireball away royal authority), etc.

Of course, the mages can wipe out everyone and take over, but then they'll end up with anti-mage rebels who'll need smiths to make VF swords to help chop up wizards. :P

You wouldn't, but the mage would be a damn fool to sell something for 1x price when he can sell it to you for 20x price because that's the going rate.

Presumably, if they're doing so, they've done so by making lesser quality weapons to sell to people who can't afford or don't need high quality weapons, making non-weapon implements, and so on. Meanwhile, their guild experts make the top-quality weapons. That's how guilds work, anyway, in my understanding. The masters do the hard, high-level skill work and the lower rankers do prorgessively less skilled work until you hit bottom. The folks on the bottom know if they put their time in and get better at their jobs, they'll move up in importance and wealth.

If this all destroys your suspension of disbelief, by all means wipe out all Smiths with fireballs and have mages make everything from horseshoes to very fine swords. Or divide up the work so smiths don't make weapons past a certain quality, only mages do, because they all have Inspired Creation and could undercut the price anytime a smith tried to buck the trend. But why would mages charge less than the highest price the market will bear?

If they're already doing so, why lower the price to wipe out "competition"? In my games, it always seems like there are more adventurers buying weapons than Very Fine weapons to go around. But like I said, if this doesn't fly for you, wipe it out. But I think it holds up under a bit of scrutiny.

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And the point I think some are missing is that it would take an awfully long time for the price of the mage-crafted swords to come down, if it ever did. For one thing, in most campaign worlds I've ever seen, the population of people with inborn Magery and/or the capacity to be trained in magic is usually much, much smaller than the population capable of being apprenticed to smiths. Therefore, any work done done by mages has a certain scarcity value; if it can be replaced by non-mage labor, it generally will be.

Given their rarity, I would probably have most NPC enchanters be at least Comfortable, and possibly Wealthy to Very Wealthy, and just ignore the effects that would logically have on magic item prices. Maybe the difference is made up by them actually using the Meditative Magic method of enchantment rather than the Slow and Sure, at some nice advantageous rate such as 1 CP per 100 points of energy in the enchantment.

Given that I would assume only about one working enchanter per a pretty sizeable area (county-sized or so), and that the rest of the +1 weapons and such in the magic shops are pulled out of ancient ruins, the lack of major economic dislocation pretty much explains itself; there are just too few enchanters working at any one time to have this effect, and they are careful to charge what the market will bear and maintain a nice standard of living.