Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

A lot of people (myself included) have made the claim that the GURPS magic system is not particularly universal, citing its rigid structure or whatever. And while I still think this is somewhat true, I noticed today that the spells themselves can be woven to fit each individual campaign better (which is what GURPS is supposed to do after all).

Take, for instance, the Sense Life spell: "Tells the caster if there is any life in the subject area, and gives a general impression (on a good roll) of what kind." Now at first that struck me as rather vague. But then I imagined how Kromm would use it, with his colorful improvisational GMing style, and I realized how adaptable that spell could be for the clever GM. It says that on a good roll, it gives a general impression of what kind of life, but it doesn't delimit the info the GM can convey. In a strongly symbolic Good vs. Evil campaign, it might tell the user if the life is good or bad. In other types of games, it could tell the user if its magical, demonic, hostile, demi-human, or whatever. And it could get even more specific than that, if it served the GM's purposes. Which makes it (and other spells like it, which I'm forgetting right now) very useful to the toolkit GM, as does the seemingly too-ambiguous "on a good roll." That very vagueness is useful, and makes GURPS magic more generic.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I feel the opposite: GURPS magic is too generic for my uses. It makes certain assumptions about the nature of a spellcasting culture that are too restrictive for what I need. For example, a "battle mage" using GURPS magic doesn't have many options for enhancing others' weapons. What's worse, there is next to no true minor enchantment system in GURPS magic: there's major enchantment (lasts forever, takes a long, long time to cast) and temporary enchantment (lasts X uses, takes a long time to cast), but no minor enchantment (lasts X minutes, takes a few seconds to cast). The only spell I can think of off hand is Flaming Weapon.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

SHouldn't it be possible to create the spells you want using flaming weapon as a cost / structure guideline?
Perhaps a temporary DR boost to shields or some such would be a good start?

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

*nods* You could do that, and I'm hopeful [not privy to the exact content] that Thaumatology will have more guidelines on spell invention.

Note also that magic has a few other elemental variations on Flaming Weapon.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

It's true that standard GURPS Magic emphasize direct action over "party enhancement". But Flaming Weapon is not the only option... by far!
Think of other elemental spells sucha s Flame / Icy / Lighting Weapon / Missiles / Armor, half the Body Controll College (Grace, Reflexes, Vigor, Might, Resist Pain, and all the Boost Attribute), Protection and Warning spells such as Armor and Shield, and Movement spells such as Freedom, Lighten Burden, Haste and Great Haste.

If you want to emphasize spells that enhance allies in your campaigns, you can simply rearrange the spell list (which is not a "deviation" from standard GURPS but a campaign option described in GURPS Magic itself).

Many people don't like GURPS Magic (probably because magic is a very subjective and totally fictional thing and everybody has his own ideas about how it should work), but in my opinion the rules as written provide a nice background for most "typical fantasy" games, and a very easy way to represent different "magic schools", religious cults and so on, simply creating a "spell list" for each.

If you really want more variety, you could easily rule that any Enchantment spell can be used "temporarily", at 1/100 cost or something, but its effects last only 10 minutes. I don't think it's necessary, and will require you to 'change the rules', but might be what you're looking for...

In my opinion, if you want to build your own "magic system" or "supernatural abilities system" you should not look in GURPS Magic but in GURPS Powers.

On the other hand, if your preferred magic system is somewhat similar to "standard fantasy rpg magic", whatever that means, GURPS Magic will be enough (and simpler).

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

With respect, sir. It IS the GENERIC universal role-play system. If you feel it is too generic, customize. Write up house rules that are comfortable to you and your players and go have a good time. That's the whole point.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

GURPS Magic spells seem very out of place. I know the comment has been made before, but generic-izing the psionics system was the right thing to do, and so would be doing so with magic.

That said, GURPS Magic spells are a fine "house rule" to add to the generic system. :)

But yes - GURPS Magic is quite non-generic. It feels like it should be a part of a world book. You can't model Forgotten Realms D&D style magic or MAGE the ascension brand magic off it. Its really its own creature.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

For what it's worth, I'm making my own magic system for my Dragon Age RPG (title a work in progress).

So far, it works a bit more like Mage than anything. I'm trying to set it up so that most users can get practical use out of it, but only the most powerful can get anything REALLY significant out of it. I.E., you can't really sling fireballs around until Magery 1 or so. To do so beforehand is dangerous, and draining.

It's meant for a Normal mana world (with certain high mana zones), and magic is divided into three parts.

Regardless, I recommend that anyone that's even the slightest bit interested look here: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Dragon_Age

I'm still brainstorming and just using the wiki for scribing it down.

A lot of the figures are just "ballpark figures". Either way, if your complaint is that magic is too *general* and not specific enough, then you would dislike my system.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Magic has been genericised of course. The magery system is merely an alternative to the generic approach.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I will agree that all of these are great party enhancement spells, and I did forget about the other two weapon enhancements. What I would also like to see is something like Sharpen Weapon (add/increase cutting damage) or Spike Weapon (add/increase impaling damage). I've been creating these spells using Flaming Weapon as a template.

That is a good idea. I've been playing around with something like it.

I agree, with a caveat (and a caveat on the caveat). Powers-based magic is significantly more costly CP-wise than Magic-based magic, at least as far as I've been able to construct it. At the same time, however, Magic-based magic is extremely powerful even at the low end of the CP scale, and replacing it with Powers-based magic is useful when trying to nerf magic on purpose.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yes, absolutely. I should have been clearer, my comment wasn't meant to be purely a criticism. I have been developing my own house rules (simply by adding a Combination spell, which allows more than one spell to be cast at the same time, at a skill penalty, one can effectively expand the spell list), using the magic system as the primary structure, and I'm quite happy with the way magic works in GURPS generally. That being said, I do think the lack of minor enchantments was an oversight.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

You mean, like Temporary Enchantment, Magic p 16? With it, you can enchant a Dragonbane Puissance +1 Sword, good for one strike against a dragon for 15% of the normal energy cost, or 53.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

That depends... A pure damage-dealing battle mage can be quite a bit cheaper with Powers (80 pts IQ plus 35 pts Magery buys a lot of Innate Attack!) But as far as flexibilty and variety, Magic spells will be far cheaper than Powers given that it only takes a handful of points to gain each additional ability...

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I'm fairly sure they already have that, under the Making and Breaking school. I was using it as a base for a spell I was creating called "Essential Edge," then I realized the enchantment section already had what I was looking for.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Temporary Enchantment as written are often inefficient and expensive... your example shows it clearly (53 energy for a single +1 damage??)

If you want to use them extensively in your campaign (that is, "most mages use temporary enchantments, they are the typicall party enhancing spell") you'll have to greatly reduce its cost.
You might be interested in Sharpen (M118) who works on both cutting and impaling damage.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

How could a single magic system possibly model both D&D and Mage the ascension?
GURPS has a very functional "power building" system (that is, GURPS Powers) that will allow you to build any possible magic system (though it can be complex).
GURPS Magic is quite customizable, and can cover most fantasy magic system, but makes certain assumptions, and if you use it as written, it will be different from D&D, Mage or any other system.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Okay then, I guess we need some new spells, then. How about something like "Empower Weapon", granting a flat +1 to weapon damage per two points of Energy spent?

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yes, like you said, Powers attempts to be the toolkit to do just just that..

My concern is that when Steve Jackson Games has put out game world books in the past, they force the game world to work wih the GURPS Magic system basically developed for the Banestorm GURPS Fantasy book long long ago. While I think the system has many merits, it is NOT the system of any other world but Banestorm..

And now that many of the old worldbooks will never be translated upto 4th edition... we remain stuck with an alien magic system. It is an aborration to the genericness of GURPS..

I am pleased that powers is in place that they can change this with future magical worlds and I beg and pray that they will use powers to describe magical abilities in future non-Banestorm world books.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Skimmed through, here's my complaint; Gurps Magic is Too General and Not Universal enough. Whereas the rest of the Gurps books tend to be just general enough and almost unfathomly universal.

I was reading through Gurps Basic trying to make a vampire and about half of the advantages and disadvantages could have been explicitly ripped off of the idea of a vampire. I read through it again with a different mindset after this discovery and tried this with cthulu type detectives (on cthulu's side). Same thing.

This is Universal at work. And the advantages and disadvantages are general enough to be used Universally. "Yes you can use this for vampires, but it can also work for [x] [y] and [z]!"

Magic is pretty set in stone. It's way to general for something as wonderful and splendid as magic is supposed to be. And worse still is that most people who say if you dont like it change it a little. It doesn't need a LITTLE change, it needs a lot of it. "Every mage on the planet uses this spell to deal fire damage to someone quickly. If you don't like this, change the name of the spell."

Infact I think Gurps Magic actually tells us this, and it's only marginally helpful. Mortiques Eliminating Illuminating Immolation works exactly like Fireball. Sure it's got an impressive title, but there's a level of suspension of disbelief Gurps Magic isn't achieving doing this. Anyone in on the joke (all of the players) know that an MEII is about as fearsome and powerful as any other fireball.

So yeah, too generic, not universal enough, though from what I hear Thaumotology might be fixing this. (Hope they have a decent chapter on dealing with Gurps Powers to those ends..)

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yeah, I think the metamagic anticipated for Thaumatology will cover this. Fireball is Fireball, but Mortique has a technique that lets him use the Long-Range table instead. He's serious artillery.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Remember, you don't HAVE to use the magic system as it stands. You can tinker it.

Several advantages get rid of the "buy this buy that" stuff, and house rules make it so that anything can be more or less powerful.

The beauty of GURPS is NOTHING is set in stone. Everything is optional. Its the beauty of Generic and Universal. Take only what you want, tweak what doesn't fit, throw out what you don't.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

There are some good ideas on customizing both Spells and powered Skills like Power Blow, etc. in this post by dataweaver. Look below the third quote box. I like the first two.

Cheers,
M.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Certainly it's possible to modify the magic system, as many of us have probably done. The general complaint however stems for the fact that the rules provided are not generic enough and not "reverse-engeneerable" as for instance the powers system.
This occurs in other parts of the system... Alternate Form, for instance, takes 10 seconds by default to change. This makes things complicated, because there is no "reduced time" enhancement, so it would make more sense to make the default 1 second and allow GM's and players to increase the time with limitations if they wanted a slow metamorphosis.
Magic, however... is seeded with little non-generic bits in the system. From the "must have loop to purify water" and "item requires X gem encrusted to enchant" to making certain assumptions of how magic works in your setting. Some of these can be easely eliminated, others will affect the power of the spell and hence, the balance.
Another problem is the non-generic and ridig spell prerequisite system. Since spells are portrayed as skills and obey the same point progression, in order to make the more powerful spells more costly, they're placed in the end of a prerequisite line or tree that not allways makes sense in your setting. Modifying the prerequisite chain is a frank pain in the ass, and the rules provide no help or examples of this.
There are alternatives... Ritual Magic, Runes, etc... however, the ritual system makes mages totaly generalistic and at least capable of casting any spell.
The inbuilt gestures and vocal components, the setting assumptions about mana, etc, etc, etc...

I don't think the system is useless by any means, or bad for that matter. It's just not as generic and flexible as the rest of the system. DF: Adveturers brought the first effective example of Power Investure magic and an alternate to the prerequisite chain system. Rune magic isn't a bad alternative at all.

I just think magic in GURPS has to grow a lot before it can be on par with the rest of the system. Namely the atribute-(dis)advantage-skills parts...

People who are trying to emulate a certain magic system, or that have a certain concept they want to try often find themselves "alone" in the venture. The rules can't be bent far enough, and provide no guideline that would give you an assuring feeling of balance.

I'm hoping Thaumatology will go even further in overcoming the deficits of the GURPS magic alternatives. I'm not sure, but I'm hoping...

To the editors: we're not just looking for new types of magic, we're looking for diferent mechanical options for doing the same type of magic: alternatives to prerequisites, or skills for that matter; use of Bang! skills; school advantage and a single spell to control it; an official position on the basic modifiers to make powers into "spells"; and so on...

I'll hate it if Thaumatology is just the old Voodoo and Cabal rules revamped.

Magic also gained antipathy from old players because it bought nearly nothing new... it was basically a copy-paste-edit job. And the art was very bad compared to the rest of 4th edition books. It has nothing to do with the magic system itself, but it just adds insult to injury.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

See 'Reduced Time', p. B108, specifically referenced in Alternate Form.

I really find the system presented in GURPS Magic to be the most flexible and useful ones for fantasy gaming that I've ever seen; I'll agree that it's not 'generic' as such (even the high-tech spells have a distinct 'generic fantasy world' flavour to them), but it provides an excellent starting point for magic in just about *any* fantasy world.

If that doesn't float your boat, it also presents Syntactic Magic, Magic! bang skill, Clerical magic, and a variety of other alternate rules. If that's still not good enough, Powers gives you ways to do just about anything you want.

I would personally rather see 'Purify Water requires a loop', and decide whether I want to keep that bit of flavour for my game than not have it there at all - frankly, I would never have come up with it on my own and I think it's pretty cool.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I completely agree!
I think that most of the criticism you hear about GURPS Magic is not deserved, and comes from unrealistic expectations about what a "generic universal magic system" would be.

GURPS Powers is generic and universal and is a very good book, but it's waaaay more complex, time-consuming and less "balanced" than GURPS Magic.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

And what unrealistic expectations are those, exactly?

Uhhh.

How is Powers less "balanced"? Please explain in detail.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Powers offers a greater variety of advantages, modifiers, and different ways to achieve similar results.

So it's inherently harder to balance, compared to a "simple" system such as Magic, that uses only Spells.

So for example, most GMs will allow a fantasy mage to build his PC using whatever spells from GURPS: Magic he likes; on the other hand, the majority of GMs will not allow PCs to use Powers "freely" ("build any power and ability you like").

Of course, some spells might be more efficient or cheaper than others, but this will only lead some PCs to save a few points, nothing more.
PCs using GURPS Powers, on the other hand, will be able to add Limitations, power modifier and so on, possibly greatly reducing the cost of some Abilities and so unbalancing the game.

I wasn't criticizing Powers, just pointing out that greater variety, universalness and genericness imply less simplicity, less balance and so on.

This is a basic point in game design, which some "GURPS Magic criticizers" seem unable to understand...

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Really? Including the technology, radiation, gate, AND time altering spells?

No, you need to actually know how your world works... which isn't exactly a failure of the system.

Uhm, by definition, limitations and power modifier reduce the cost of some abilities because the power is limited. Thus, no, no that's not "unbalancing" the game at all.

Can you please explain how you arrived at the conclusion that less points for a powerful ability by making it less powerful, reliable, or similar is "unbalancing"?

Personally, I find it "unbalancing" when a mage is encouraged to be ultra-healthy AND ultra-intelligent, and can buy up an extreme IQ and get ultra-powerful magical ability for 1 point a piece...

Well, I guess I'm one of those that fail to understand. I'm still hung up on your "less balance" point here.

Is it better to make a GURPS Gods supplement that throws gods at you, or a GURPS Gods supplement that gives rules that tell you how to make your own? The former would be easier for simplicity, but is that what GURPS buyers are generally looking for?

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Given the success of - and positive reviews for - Dungeon Fantasy, I'd say there's definitely a market for making GURPS simpler.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Okay, I think I get where you are coming from.

Powers is a good overall book for building, well, powers. Magic is one of those powers. I, too, look forward to Thaumatology.

The key bug/feature with the magic system in Basic & Magic is that it is a skill-based magic system, as opposed to a power-based one from the Powers book. This is grandfathered in from the older versions of the system. It acts as a baseline. It does work, and for a variety of settings it works well enough (with a bit of tweaking in some cases), but it is not the be-all-end-all magic system that some think it should be.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yes simpler is good. We should ask also SIMPLER FOR WHOM. I'd say that the reason we pay game designers the big bucks is so we have some of the work done for us. I love GURPS 4e (and the powers supplement) because it is a fantastic GMs toolkit.

I'd like to see the worldbooks use that toolkit to create more magic as powers. Powers has a great section that details examples of powers with the pointn breakdowns and everything... I'd like to see that for every book. But it is time consuming... and I think they may fall back to "just do it like they do in GURPS Magic" no matter how NOT like the genre that system might be.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yeah I forgot they added those, too ^^
I stand corrected, but I'd still say that most GMs will allow a PC to use most spells from Magic.

I know how Limitations work in GURPS and I agree with your point that a single Limitation will reduce both cost and effectiveness in a similar amount (that's a pretty obvious point)

On the other hand, I hope you'll agree with me that more Limitations and Ehnancement you can add to an advantage, more easily you may end up with a trait too cheaper or more efficient than another trait with similar results (but differently built).

This is not a problem in play, IF the GMs approves every PC or strictly defines what powers they can buy. After all, each PC will "waste" or "save" some points one way or another.

GURPS Powers, with his huge amount of Limitations, Ehnancements, power modifiers and so on, requires the GM to build is own powers, or strictly define which powers the PCs can use and how they can build them. This is fine!

GURPS Magic, with his "rigid" structures (easily customizable using optional rules presented in GURPS Magic itself, I'll add) offers the players a more "ready-to-use" tool for building individual PC mages (not to mention "typical fantasy" magic systems which Magic covers quite well, in my opinion). This is fine too!

Every system may have flaws. Those constructed by GMs using powers are no exception!
It's easier to point out flaws in GURPS: Magic partly because the system itself is better known, more often analyzed, and so on.

That said, I never used GURPS Magic in very high powered games, so I may underestimate his flaws at those power levels. It works quite well in the 100-300 points range, widely used by many players.
I meant no offense.
I feel some people do not appreciate the advantage of a 'structured', ready to use book, which allows players to pick spells and easily build a "fantasy mage", which is a great tool for many players.
Magic lacks any "evidence" and is rarely consistant in tradition and fiction, so it's necessary to do many assumptions compared to martial art rules, for example.

GURPS Thaumatology will be an interesting book, but I totally support SJG choice of publishing GURPS Magic first, and of making it an almost "ready to use" book, not a treatise on different magic system and how to build them.

I accept that GURPS buyers are more incline to worldbuilding, customization, rarely used settings, compared to other gamers; but I doubt that the majority of GURPS buyers (most of them not writing in these forums) actually prefer complex meta-rules building tools over simple and ready to play rules system.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

it seemed to be the trend after 4e was introduced. GURPS Spaceships for instance introduced a more streamlined and easier way to do things. Instead of requiring you to build a spreadsheet tool in order to work with it, you could do it on scratch paper fairly easy.


the first time I read/looked at GURPS Magic, I thought: breath of fresh air. I really liked it.

however coming back to it recently after a long layoff, I found the pre-requisites rather restricting. I wasn't able to pick and choose without making several reference-checks on almost each spell, and spending CPs where/when I didn't want to. I know asking the GM for a spell from another game system the answer was "okay" then it never happened.

how many GURPSers use another magic system -- perhaps borrowed from another RPG ? probably few I imagine.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I used to like Gurps Magic a lot until I started GMing. I never used it to any real extent though, never got beyond using missile rules and burning touch.

That said when there was an option to use a different magic system in the particular campaign we were in, the majority of the player base shifted to that other magic system (usually GM created) despite knowing Gurps Magic inside-out and upside-down because it just didn't...work.

Any mage worth his salt has IQ 14 Magery 3 and 4 points in most spells. That's a lot of bloody points! Building magic with powers may require I have more paper and pencils around to jot everything down but inevitably people get to spend their points exactly where they want to.

I used to think Gurps Magic was broken until I realized the pretty obvious point that if I allow magic in my world I should probably allow my fighters to buy things like enhanced move, extra attack, Striking ST beyond human norms, and a plethora of other advantages.

It's not broken of course (only a few certain spells like Enlarge)...it's just a wasteful use of points and time that forces you down the High IQ+High Magery+skill=15 route. Every mage ends up being the same.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I'm not sure what to expect from Thaumatology, but personally I'm really hoping it has some alternative magic systems, and maybe a way to create your own.

An interesting project would be to try and recreate magic systems from other games or worlds in GURPS.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

It definitely has to have some help on making ones own magic system.

I'm not entirely happy with vanilla GURPS magic system - it's both too restrictive and unles the GM limits what spells are available - too unrestrictive..

I'we compared it before to tech books - iwhat if one just handed gurps ultratech to players and said - just buy anything in this book - but there's nothing else - no tools or stuff other than what's listed here.. No way it just wouldn't work.

Now with tech we can easily extrapolate that if there's laser guns there's going to be a laser pointer available even if laser pointers are not listed on da book... There's also generic discussion on each tech levels what's usually available - that helps too. But with magic - if I can throw firebals that do 1d damage - could i toss a small ball that does 0-2 damage? - just for fun - heck I dont know - by the book - no - but on gut feeling - yeas a mage tha can throw 1d 2d or 3d firebals should be able to make 1/2D fireball - for target practise for example - or for setting someones hair to fire on those boring mage school classes....

And conversarily there's tech levels and legality levels in the tech books - can I have a military laser rifle - lemmesee tech level 9 legality 1 -- well not in this century in this world and probably not legally in any civilised society..
Can I learn to throw explosive fireballs - ummm dunno I suppose you can as it's in da book and there's no mention about other oprerequisites than other spells and magery..
Now what kind of society would not restrict people hawing something that's essentially hand grenades that can't be detected or taken away from you. Sure only nobility can carry swords in megalos - but anyone can learn destructive spells (or at least there's no mention about there being any restriction in 3rd e G:fantasy I dont know if there's in G:Banestorm - but I suspect there's none.)..

SO yeah - the magic system should be worked into the gameworld just as technology is. Unles it's just "dungeon fantasy" of course - but how about Yrth (Banestorm) -- it's a full blown game world - expect for magic - wich is handled like - 10% of people are mages - humans originally learned magics from elves and now there are human wizards and all - Umm and that's it - you're on your own..

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I agree completely. In a setting like Banestorm, it's really strange that more work wasn't put into making the magic interwoven with the world.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

yes, points can add up very quickly.

my only exposure to official GURPS Magic was running a technomancer campaign, and the only mages were NPCs as the players were all mercenary types. So my life was easy, with little explanation and moderate amount of planning.

but recently trying to throw a Thunderclap spell in a PBP, I'd forgotten that throwing it 7 hexes away (I had no idea where everyone was really since it's PBP and not visual) I was suddenly at -7 or something.

So to me a mage that can't throw a spell 7 hexes away, really isn't much of a mage, especially compared to other "magic rich" or "magic flavored" RPGs.

Still some things about GURPS Magic are interesting, though I always thought the current-era approach to mass-producing alchemical stuff for a medieval setting was silly; but that's probably a meta-game element that's best dealt with by the GM.

as for your alternate magic, you say it was devised by the GM and not borrowed from your group's "other favorite" rpg ?

>

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Certainly, I loved DF: Adventurers, specialy for the fact that it included a working example of Power Investure, no-prerequisite, magic. It's a simpler and less rigid type of magic, and the examples give GMs a good idea of what sort of power each power level should boast, and wich spells.

I'm not advocating a more complex GURPS magic system. And like I said in my previous post, I don't think the default magic system is bad. It's just limited in some ways, and people pretty soon want to push the magic system and find it lacking.

Now, I'm not going to convince people here that do not wish to be convinced. But you'll have to give me one thing: it's very unlikely that GURPS Magic 4e is such a controverse book for nothing. From the copy-paste, to the art and to the lack of true evolution from 3e (in contrast with Basic, Powers, etc...), lots and lots of people find it lacking. Certainly there's a big chunk of people that don't mind, another wish it'd be more flexible but don't mind, another still mind but aren't vocal about it, and there are those that don't use the magic system at all.

DF made me a happier man, I can now adapt Power Investure do eliminate annoying prerequisite chains on more than a vague description of how Power Investure worked. GURPS Fantasy 4e also added some interesting options. And the introduction of a few elements from 3e to 4e Magic (like Ritual Magic, Synthatic Magic, etc...) made it a little better than it's predecessor. Thaumatology is probably going to make me even happier, but I doubt that it'll be (as some expect) the bringer of the "make it yourself" magical toolkit. It'll probably be just a few more alternate systems, and a few more optionals.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yeah, but even by giving more options, it'll make it easier to make your own by reverse-engineering, combining, etc.

Personally, with the exception of Bio-Tech, I haven't looked forward this much to a 4e book since the basic set. I'm being patient, though... well, trying. :)

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Oh, certainly... it'll make us much happier.

I'm just saying that a lot of people are building a LOT of expectation on Thaumatology, and I don't think it'll be the "messiah" they're hoping for that'll make magic as adaptable as powers.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

What makes you think so?

I'm keeping my hopes high... Phil's pretty clever, and they gotta have more than just more alternate systems in those 272 pages.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

That's true. Using RAW all mages will try to have a base spell level of 15, it's simply too advantageous.
I almost always used the optional "skill for energy" rules (where energy reduction is not automatic at 15, but can be achieved by taking a penalty to skill).

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Thanks for pointing that one out - I'd missed it when I first went through the list. It doesn't do everything I'd like (adding cutting damage to blunt weapons), but it is an example of exactly the kind of spell that is largely lacking in GURPS Magic: cheap short-term enchantments (because, really, that's what Sharpen is) with durations based on time rather than number of uses.

There are a few more things I would like to have seen in GURPS Magic, and I hope Thaumatology includes some if not all of them:

1) War College. Even if it had just sucked up spells from existing lists like a Hoover. That way a battlecaster wouldn't have to be a college dabbler, and could even take One College Magery.
2) Emanations. Area spells that center on the caster and move with him/her. Just about every Area spell could be duplicated as an Emanation spell with no tweaking of cost: the tradeoff of mobility vs. range seems good enough to me.
3) Combinations. A way to cast two or more spells at the same time, using one skill roll, at a skill penalty or increased FP cost (sort of like combat Combinations in MA, but not quite). Thunderclap + Lightning is a stupid example but it's basically what I'm thinking of.
4) Aspected magic. Another way to do clerical magic, keeping all the prerequisites but making each spell only work on friends or enemies of the caster's religion (depending on the kind of spell it is), with a reduction to skill cost (H -> A, VH -> H) or FP cost.

With the exception of #2, these fill the gap of what I mean by "too generic." Why is there no War College? I don't know - there's no divine law that says there has to be one. And it certainly isn't hard to make a house rule to create it, so I'm not up in arms about the lack of a War College. I get the feeling that the editors of GURPS Magic (over the years) wanted to move away from the D&D battlecaster paradigm (to make it more generic), which is FINE... but a War College would really have come in handy for Dungeon Fantasy 1.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

To be fair, a D&D wizard is much more than a battle-mage. Besides throwing fireballs and lightning bolts, he can solve problems from "I can't see" to "Did that fox see any hobbits come waltzing through here recently?" to "Hide, quick!"

The GURPS spell lists seem to cover magical needs nicely.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I don't doubt his engeniousness, however the magical spells (skills) are pretty much arbitrary. There isn't any formula for making them that the editors used and for some reason decided not to tell us.
They were put together in a more or less logical way, priced (fatigue costs included) according to power relative to other spells, but it's basically up to game design and experience.
The "balance" was sorted out in playtest (as far as I know).
There's no hidden mechanic here.

I also don't think that suddenly an alternate and better system is going to coff up out of nowhere.

There may be something about aplying modifiers to spells, magery itself, tips on building spells as powers...

I just don't think that Thaumatology is going to be the revolution a lot of people are hoping for. I'm sure I'll be surprised with a lot of stuff, 4e has a record for surprising me over and over again. But I'd rather not get my hopes up. And as to why I think such a system won't be included (or won't be what everybody's hoping for)... it's just a hunch.

I think the core of the book will be alternate magic systems, yes. Namely the old voodoo and cabal systems. (I don't know the latter though). What I'm hoping is that other things get a lot of attention too!

I'd love to be wrong on this one, and a magic tool-kit coming up... but I don't think I am. Time will tell.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

There's nothing wrong with the spell list. It's a wonderful and thorough look at many many magical effects seen in fiction. I was plenty satisfied with 3e Magic+Grimoire and 4e magic added even more to that!

If anyone, after reading that many spell descriptions, is having trouble coming up with new spells then they just aren't very good at it... at all.

The "problem" is not the spell list, it's how it's acessed. There are only a few mechanics to access the spell list, and changing these assumptions can be tricky and unbalancing. Synthatic magic is one example of an alternate way to access the spells, Ritual Magic is another. DF presented 2 clear examples of yet another way: Power Investure.

We need more ways to access the richness of the spell list in ways that can fit more concepts, settings and game-worlds. Current options aren't cutting it (this being the opinion of quite a few people on the boards and a few friends I know that don't use the forum; there's probably a significant percentage out there).

That's what I'm hoping to see in Thaumatology.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Minmaxing is fun, but I don't think everyone does minmaxing all the time.

I for one try to undo my minmaxing sometimes. Saying - well that is cheaper but there is no way my character is that smart.. a 14 iq? no way. My guy is good and understanding magic.. He isn't particularly smart otherwise.

Like a computer geek.. Might be talented in his area but not in everything.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Where's that, or do you mean the 'alternate magical ritual' rules?

Personally I'd like something that let you trade skill for more energy to put into a spell. It would give another reason for Symbol Drawing and the Contagion rules.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

How about energy reduction on a good margin of succes - ie making it somewhat random.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Well, I kinda lost track of this thread and admittedly haven't read through all the posts since the second page or so, but I didn't mean for this to turn into another "Magic is too specific!" thread. Mostly I wanted to point out what I thought was a cool feature of the individual spells, namely, that they give the GM power to use them appropriately in his campaign.

However, now that we're here, I have to say that, while I intuitively feel that the baseline system isn't generic enough, the fact remains that it's *still* a system: it's akin to calling the combat system not generic enough, not because the combat system doesn't allow for result X, but because it doesn't get to result X by means of manner Y. Like saying, "GURPS combat is crappy - I can't do a Power Attack," when in fact that method of attack is just handled differently (through AoO or whatever). GURPS magic certainly gets you to all sorts of results, just not in the manner people expect or want.

Perhaps what's really at issue is the flavor, of which the mechanics are a reflection. No one damns the combat system for being not generic enough (i.e., not malleable enough in regard to flavor), because as long as it's mechanically effective, the flavor is added in by the players/GM. But magic is flavor, that's why it's interesting and fun. Thus it seems simultaneously "too generic and not universal enough," as Blood Legend said somewhere upthread. The flavor is lacking (rightfully so), but it's still tied down to a very specific system. Which means that you can't change the flavor - or rather, add lots of flavor - without changing the whole system.

I'm not sure if that's an argument for a Powers approach or not. The versatility of magic may be the best argument against the Powers approach, but then again, there's a whole nother thread on why magic is too all-encompassing.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Well this is actually my first post, but I've been playing GURPS since 1986, and I must say I've always been relatively happy with the Magic system...

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

The trouble with making the magic system generic is that you still have to decide on exactly what magic is and how it works to come up with a set of rules for using it. Until such time as someone can demonstrate conclusively the existence and workings of magic in the real world, that's not going to happen. (Even then, you'd still have to account for "fictional" magic.)

So GURPS provides several not-exactly-generic systems for working magic, whatever it is in your game. Thaumatology will give you many more. You have to decide what magic "really" is, and choose the set of rules that will best represent that.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

False dichotomy.

You could also use Powers.

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The only way to create truly generic magic abilities. If only it were so overpriced when compared to the legacy code that is Gurps Magic.

I'm not a fan of Gurps Magic and all the published kludges suggested to force it to do what it isn't fit to do.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

More of a return to normalization, I would say. My viewpoint has been that Magic generally underprices special abilities.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Personally, I think it does both.

Having one "good" spell with IQ 10, Magery 0 takes an excruciating amount of points. Having a single wizard that is pretty darn good with one spell, and not others can be dang expensive. Meanwhile, all of your other spells will automatically suck, being at level 8 if you only put one point into it.

Meanwhile, with IQ 14 and Magery 3, you can buy up spells like popcorn. Heck, you can afford to buy "booster packs" and have a randomized spell list, no problem. Just throw 1 CP onto each spell.

Of course, this can also be said to be a problem with skills in general.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Here here.

At least with skills there is currently advantages for having your abilities at stat+x. I'd like to see that with magic.

How about this as a rule:

at stat you get a -1 to fatigue costs
at stat+6 you get an additional -1 to fatigue costs and cut time to cast in half...

So an IQ11 mage or an IQ14 mage would both spend 4 points to get a spell with a reduce fatigue cost that you usually get at "15;" and 28 points to get a spell with 2 reduced fatigue and the half casting time you get at 21...

This house rule would represent an alternative where intense training is more important than raw power. Intelligence would still be important for determining your final skill level to which you roll against. Magery would be useful for that and for determining how much fatigue you can put in the spell..

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

My main issue is that no matter how limited a group of magical "Powers" are, each individual ability cannot ever be reduced in cost past -80% and certainly NEVER to a single point the way they can with spells.

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I'd honestly say that if you've managed to reduce it to -100% or beyond, you probably should be able to just buy it as a perk...

Though there's also the option of making it an alternate ability or attack. That can reduce it to 1 if it costs 5 already...

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I like that element. One issue I have with magic is that 1 pt gives you MORE than a perq worth of ability (at least most of the time).

Even if it is fatiguing and you have to wave your hands around, most utility spells are very useful; much more useful than 1 pt would suggest.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

You do make a good point here. I mean, Weapon Bond, a perk, only gives you a +1 to hit and use your weapon... meanwhile, a 1 point in a powerful spell can let you teleport people.

BIIIIIG difference.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

That was my point. Despite the large buy-in cost, standard magic is preferable due to the fact that extra special abilities can be added with a minimal investment... and unlike AAs, new spells don't need (by default) a unifying theme [this also means that the entire slate of spells is not negated if one is somehow neutralized] nor do they have the 'activation-duration' penalty.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

The teleporter has spent a minimum of 20 points to get that spell, 21 if he wants to teleport other people - and that's if he somehow manages to knock Magery down to 20% cost (not terribly hard, but not precisely the best idea you've ever had, either).

Warp, which is more flexible, costs 20 points if you knock it down to 20%, which can be done without crippling the power.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

When did I say you couldn't use Powers? Isn't that GURPS too? Isn't it one of those several possible magic systems I mentioned? And who said I was building a dichotomy?

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yeah, I think Lonewulf maybe taking some kind of debate 101 class on logical falacies and used his response as a chance to use "false dichotomy" in a sentence. :)

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Perhaps I misread what you said.

Either way, I wasn't exactly serious when I said that. :)
Nah, I got used to slinging around words for logical fallacies on the JREF forum.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

What kind of weird counter-examples are those?
What player would ever create a spellcaster to know only one spell? Shouldn't we invent non-silly hypotheticals?

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I've known several players who play wizards JUST SO THAT THEY CAN GET FIREBALL..

In GURPS it was not uncommon for me to decide a character's "schtick" spell and get all the prereqs to make that happen.