Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yes simpler is good. We should ask also SIMPLER FOR WHOM. I'd say that the reason we pay game designers the big bucks is so we have some of the work done for us. I love GURPS 4e (and the powers supplement) because it is a fantastic GMs toolkit.

I'd like to see the worldbooks use that toolkit to create more magic as powers. Powers has a great section that details examples of powers with the pointn breakdowns and everything... I'd like to see that for every book. But it is time consuming... and I think they may fall back to "just do it like they do in GURPS Magic" no matter how NOT like the genre that system might be.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yeah I forgot they added those, too ^^
I stand corrected, but I'd still say that most GMs will allow a PC to use most spells from Magic.

I know how Limitations work in GURPS and I agree with your point that a single Limitation will reduce both cost and effectiveness in a similar amount (that's a pretty obvious point)

On the other hand, I hope you'll agree with me that more Limitations and Ehnancement you can add to an advantage, more easily you may end up with a trait too cheaper or more efficient than another trait with similar results (but differently built).

This is not a problem in play, IF the GMs approves every PC or strictly defines what powers they can buy. After all, each PC will "waste" or "save" some points one way or another.

GURPS Powers, with his huge amount of Limitations, Ehnancements, power modifiers and so on, requires the GM to build is own powers, or strictly define which powers the PCs can use and how they can build them. This is fine!

GURPS Magic, with his "rigid" structures (easily customizable using optional rules presented in GURPS Magic itself, I'll add) offers the players a more "ready-to-use" tool for building individual PC mages (not to mention "typical fantasy" magic systems which Magic covers quite well, in my opinion). This is fine too!

Every system may have flaws. Those constructed by GMs using powers are no exception!
It's easier to point out flaws in GURPS: Magic partly because the system itself is better known, more often analyzed, and so on.

That said, I never used GURPS Magic in very high powered games, so I may underestimate his flaws at those power levels. It works quite well in the 100-300 points range, widely used by many players.
I meant no offense.
I feel some people do not appreciate the advantage of a 'structured', ready to use book, which allows players to pick spells and easily build a "fantasy mage", which is a great tool for many players.
Magic lacks any "evidence" and is rarely consistant in tradition and fiction, so it's necessary to do many assumptions compared to martial art rules, for example.

GURPS Thaumatology will be an interesting book, but I totally support SJG choice of publishing GURPS Magic first, and of making it an almost "ready to use" book, not a treatise on different magic system and how to build them.

I accept that GURPS buyers are more incline to worldbuilding, customization, rarely used settings, compared to other gamers; but I doubt that the majority of GURPS buyers (most of them not writing in these forums) actually prefer complex meta-rules building tools over simple and ready to play rules system.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

it seemed to be the trend after 4e was introduced. GURPS Spaceships for instance introduced a more streamlined and easier way to do things. Instead of requiring you to build a spreadsheet tool in order to work with it, you could do it on scratch paper fairly easy.


the first time I read/looked at GURPS Magic, I thought: breath of fresh air. I really liked it.

however coming back to it recently after a long layoff, I found the pre-requisites rather restricting. I wasn't able to pick and choose without making several reference-checks on almost each spell, and spending CPs where/when I didn't want to. I know asking the GM for a spell from another game system the answer was "okay" then it never happened.

how many GURPSers use another magic system -- perhaps borrowed from another RPG ? probably few I imagine.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I used to like Gurps Magic a lot until I started GMing. I never used it to any real extent though, never got beyond using missile rules and burning touch.

That said when there was an option to use a different magic system in the particular campaign we were in, the majority of the player base shifted to that other magic system (usually GM created) despite knowing Gurps Magic inside-out and upside-down because it just didn't...work.

Any mage worth his salt has IQ 14 Magery 3 and 4 points in most spells. That's a lot of bloody points! Building magic with powers may require I have more paper and pencils around to jot everything down but inevitably people get to spend their points exactly where they want to.

I used to think Gurps Magic was broken until I realized the pretty obvious point that if I allow magic in my world I should probably allow my fighters to buy things like enhanced move, extra attack, Striking ST beyond human norms, and a plethora of other advantages.

It's not broken of course (only a few certain spells like Enlarge)...it's just a wasteful use of points and time that forces you down the High IQ+High Magery+skill=15 route. Every mage ends up being the same.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I'm not sure what to expect from Thaumatology, but personally I'm really hoping it has some alternative magic systems, and maybe a way to create your own.

An interesting project would be to try and recreate magic systems from other games or worlds in GURPS.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

It definitely has to have some help on making ones own magic system.

I'm not entirely happy with vanilla GURPS magic system - it's both too restrictive and unles the GM limits what spells are available - too unrestrictive..

I'we compared it before to tech books - iwhat if one just handed gurps ultratech to players and said - just buy anything in this book - but there's nothing else - no tools or stuff other than what's listed here.. No way it just wouldn't work.

Now with tech we can easily extrapolate that if there's laser guns there's going to be a laser pointer available even if laser pointers are not listed on da book... There's also generic discussion on each tech levels what's usually available - that helps too. But with magic - if I can throw firebals that do 1d damage - could i toss a small ball that does 0-2 damage? - just for fun - heck I dont know - by the book - no - but on gut feeling - yeas a mage tha can throw 1d 2d or 3d firebals should be able to make 1/2D fireball - for target practise for example - or for setting someones hair to fire on those boring mage school classes....

And conversarily there's tech levels and legality levels in the tech books - can I have a military laser rifle - lemmesee tech level 9 legality 1 -- well not in this century in this world and probably not legally in any civilised society..
Can I learn to throw explosive fireballs - ummm dunno I suppose you can as it's in da book and there's no mention about other oprerequisites than other spells and magery..
Now what kind of society would not restrict people hawing something that's essentially hand grenades that can't be detected or taken away from you. Sure only nobility can carry swords in megalos - but anyone can learn destructive spells (or at least there's no mention about there being any restriction in 3rd e G:fantasy I dont know if there's in G:Banestorm - but I suspect there's none.)..

SO yeah - the magic system should be worked into the gameworld just as technology is. Unles it's just "dungeon fantasy" of course - but how about Yrth (Banestorm) -- it's a full blown game world - expect for magic - wich is handled like - 10% of people are mages - humans originally learned magics from elves and now there are human wizards and all - Umm and that's it - you're on your own..

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I agree completely. In a setting like Banestorm, it's really strange that more work wasn't put into making the magic interwoven with the world.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

yes, points can add up very quickly.

my only exposure to official GURPS Magic was running a technomancer campaign, and the only mages were NPCs as the players were all mercenary types. So my life was easy, with little explanation and moderate amount of planning.

but recently trying to throw a Thunderclap spell in a PBP, I'd forgotten that throwing it 7 hexes away (I had no idea where everyone was really since it's PBP and not visual) I was suddenly at -7 or something.

So to me a mage that can't throw a spell 7 hexes away, really isn't much of a mage, especially compared to other "magic rich" or "magic flavored" RPGs.

Still some things about GURPS Magic are interesting, though I always thought the current-era approach to mass-producing alchemical stuff for a medieval setting was silly; but that's probably a meta-game element that's best dealt with by the GM.

as for your alternate magic, you say it was devised by the GM and not borrowed from your group's "other favorite" rpg ?

>

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Certainly, I loved DF: Adventurers, specialy for the fact that it included a working example of Power Investure, no-prerequisite, magic. It's a simpler and less rigid type of magic, and the examples give GMs a good idea of what sort of power each power level should boast, and wich spells.

I'm not advocating a more complex GURPS magic system. And like I said in my previous post, I don't think the default magic system is bad. It's just limited in some ways, and people pretty soon want to push the magic system and find it lacking.

Now, I'm not going to convince people here that do not wish to be convinced. But you'll have to give me one thing: it's very unlikely that GURPS Magic 4e is such a controverse book for nothing. From the copy-paste, to the art and to the lack of true evolution from 3e (in contrast with Basic, Powers, etc...), lots and lots of people find it lacking. Certainly there's a big chunk of people that don't mind, another wish it'd be more flexible but don't mind, another still mind but aren't vocal about it, and there are those that don't use the magic system at all.

DF made me a happier man, I can now adapt Power Investure do eliminate annoying prerequisite chains on more than a vague description of how Power Investure worked. GURPS Fantasy 4e also added some interesting options. And the introduction of a few elements from 3e to 4e Magic (like Ritual Magic, Synthatic Magic, etc...) made it a little better than it's predecessor. Thaumatology is probably going to make me even happier, but I doubt that it'll be (as some expect) the bringer of the "make it yourself" magical toolkit. It'll probably be just a few more alternate systems, and a few more optionals.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Yeah, but even by giving more options, it'll make it easier to make your own by reverse-engineering, combining, etc.

Personally, with the exception of Bio-Tech, I haven't looked forward this much to a 4e book since the basic set. I'm being patient, though... well, trying. :)