Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Remember, you don't HAVE to use the magic system as it stands. You can tinker it.

Several advantages get rid of the "buy this buy that" stuff, and house rules make it so that anything can be more or less powerful.

The beauty of GURPS is NOTHING is set in stone. Everything is optional. Its the beauty of Generic and Universal. Take only what you want, tweak what doesn't fit, throw out what you don't.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

There are some good ideas on customizing both Spells and powered Skills like Power Blow, etc. in this post by dataweaver. Look below the third quote box. I like the first two.

Cheers,
M.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Certainly it's possible to modify the magic system, as many of us have probably done. The general complaint however stems for the fact that the rules provided are not generic enough and not "reverse-engeneerable" as for instance the powers system.
This occurs in other parts of the system... Alternate Form, for instance, takes 10 seconds by default to change. This makes things complicated, because there is no "reduced time" enhancement, so it would make more sense to make the default 1 second and allow GM's and players to increase the time with limitations if they wanted a slow metamorphosis.
Magic, however... is seeded with little non-generic bits in the system. From the "must have loop to purify water" and "item requires X gem encrusted to enchant" to making certain assumptions of how magic works in your setting. Some of these can be easely eliminated, others will affect the power of the spell and hence, the balance.
Another problem is the non-generic and ridig spell prerequisite system. Since spells are portrayed as skills and obey the same point progression, in order to make the more powerful spells more costly, they're placed in the end of a prerequisite line or tree that not allways makes sense in your setting. Modifying the prerequisite chain is a frank pain in the ass, and the rules provide no help or examples of this.
There are alternatives... Ritual Magic, Runes, etc... however, the ritual system makes mages totaly generalistic and at least capable of casting any spell.
The inbuilt gestures and vocal components, the setting assumptions about mana, etc, etc, etc...

I don't think the system is useless by any means, or bad for that matter. It's just not as generic and flexible as the rest of the system. DF: Adveturers brought the first effective example of Power Investure magic and an alternate to the prerequisite chain system. Rune magic isn't a bad alternative at all.

I just think magic in GURPS has to grow a lot before it can be on par with the rest of the system. Namely the atribute-(dis)advantage-skills parts...

People who are trying to emulate a certain magic system, or that have a certain concept they want to try often find themselves "alone" in the venture. The rules can't be bent far enough, and provide no guideline that would give you an assuring feeling of balance.

I'm hoping Thaumatology will go even further in overcoming the deficits of the GURPS magic alternatives. I'm not sure, but I'm hoping...

To the editors: we're not just looking for new types of magic, we're looking for diferent mechanical options for doing the same type of magic: alternatives to prerequisites, or skills for that matter; use of Bang! skills; school advantage and a single spell to control it; an official position on the basic modifiers to make powers into "spells"; and so on...

I'll hate it if Thaumatology is just the old Voodoo and Cabal rules revamped.

Magic also gained antipathy from old players because it bought nearly nothing new... it was basically a copy-paste-edit job. And the art was very bad compared to the rest of 4th edition books. It has nothing to do with the magic system itself, but it just adds insult to injury.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

See 'Reduced Time', p. B108, specifically referenced in Alternate Form.

I really find the system presented in GURPS Magic to be the most flexible and useful ones for fantasy gaming that I've ever seen; I'll agree that it's not 'generic' as such (even the high-tech spells have a distinct 'generic fantasy world' flavour to them), but it provides an excellent starting point for magic in just about *any* fantasy world.

If that doesn't float your boat, it also presents Syntactic Magic, Magic! bang skill, Clerical magic, and a variety of other alternate rules. If that's still not good enough, Powers gives you ways to do just about anything you want.

I would personally rather see 'Purify Water requires a loop', and decide whether I want to keep that bit of flavour for my game than not have it there at all - frankly, I would never have come up with it on my own and I think it's pretty cool.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

I completely agree!
I think that most of the criticism you hear about GURPS Magic is not deserved, and comes from unrealistic expectations about what a "generic universal magic system" would be.

GURPS Powers is generic and universal and is a very good book, but it's waaaay more complex, time-consuming and less "balanced" than GURPS Magic.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

And what unrealistic expectations are those, exactly?

Uhhh.

How is Powers less "balanced"? Please explain in detail.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Powers offers a greater variety of advantages, modifiers, and different ways to achieve similar results.

So it's inherently harder to balance, compared to a "simple" system such as Magic, that uses only Spells.

So for example, most GMs will allow a fantasy mage to build his PC using whatever spells from GURPS: Magic he likes; on the other hand, the majority of GMs will not allow PCs to use Powers "freely" ("build any power and ability you like").

Of course, some spells might be more efficient or cheaper than others, but this will only lead some PCs to save a few points, nothing more.
PCs using GURPS Powers, on the other hand, will be able to add Limitations, power modifier and so on, possibly greatly reducing the cost of some Abilities and so unbalancing the game.

I wasn't criticizing Powers, just pointing out that greater variety, universalness and genericness imply less simplicity, less balance and so on.

This is a basic point in game design, which some "GURPS Magic criticizers" seem unable to understand...

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Really? Including the technology, radiation, gate, AND time altering spells?

No, you need to actually know how your world works... which isn't exactly a failure of the system.

Uhm, by definition, limitations and power modifier reduce the cost of some abilities because the power is limited. Thus, no, no that's not "unbalancing" the game at all.

Can you please explain how you arrived at the conclusion that less points for a powerful ability by making it less powerful, reliable, or similar is "unbalancing"?

Personally, I find it "unbalancing" when a mage is encouraged to be ultra-healthy AND ultra-intelligent, and can buy up an extreme IQ and get ultra-powerful magical ability for 1 point a piece...

Well, I guess I'm one of those that fail to understand. I'm still hung up on your "less balance" point here.

Is it better to make a GURPS Gods supplement that throws gods at you, or a GURPS Gods supplement that gives rules that tell you how to make your own? The former would be easier for simplicity, but is that what GURPS buyers are generally looking for?

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Given the success of - and positive reviews for - Dungeon Fantasy, I'd say there's definitely a market for making GURPS simpler.

Re: Genericness of Magic in GURPS
 

Okay, I think I get where you are coming from.

Powers is a good overall book for building, well, powers. Magic is one of those powers. I, too, look forward to Thaumatology.

The key bug/feature with the magic system in Basic & Magic is that it is a skill-based magic system, as opposed to a power-based one from the Powers book. This is grandfathered in from the older versions of the system. It acts as a baseline. It does work, and for a variety of settings it works well enough (with a bit of tweaking in some cases), but it is not the be-all-end-all magic system that some think it should be.