How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Not a list of treasure items but ways to reward players in a longer campaign. Things like animal companions for the scout. Patents of nobility with a fife attached for the knight. Social rank in the wizard's or thieves guild. Special divine or arcane powers that can only be "unlocked" by using character points earned during play.
Just a bunch of cool stuff instead of players pushing their stats and skills ever and ever upward.
And a chapter of cool magic doodads wouldn't go amiss, neither.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Problem with treasure is you have to buy wealth to keep it. ;)

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Don't get that. To my mind, any material rewards offered to PCs are potential cp converted to material items anyway. Giving them enough to establish them as having wealth is just a different way of awarding cp in a more particularised manner. Noting the 'wealth' advantage on your sheet when you match the requirements after being awarded the money in play should be par for the course.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

I'd be surprised if anyone does actually enforce this, but going by the example of acquired advantages in 3rd edition, where platic surgery to improve appearance takes in game cash and time PLUS points - as positive gains must be paid for - the benefits of large amounts of cash require the wealth advantage being purchased.

Silly IMHO. If it was up to me I'd have done it like this: Wealth is broken down to three categories. 1) Starting money. 2) Outside Income. 3) Game earned.

Starting money is set by GM or game world book. Points may be spent to increase this, but they go bye bye forever if they are.

You can start out with less than that and gain back points.

Outside income is out of game money or monies that come to the character on a regular basis. By default it's a stipend without restrictions. If you want to have a job you have to account for it in play. This reduces the cost in proportion to the hindrance the character gets from it.

Game Earned money is earned by virtue of being acquired in game through player actions (or percieved actions). The GM sets the limit by putting out so much to be acquired. No point cost for this money. Ever.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Aye. If the GM let's the PCs uncover a dragon's horde worth 20.000$ for each member this is to me the same as him saying 'I award you 20 cp each for this adventure - only you have to invest it in wealth.'

imo, It's up to the GM to balance these kind of rewards (including magical items and such as well) in pace with how fast he wants the group to progress in conjunction with their non-pre-assigned cp progression, not for the PCs to have to pay for it.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

See, for a Dungeon Fantasy style game, the Job and Wealth section of Gurps needs to be tossed.

These games arent deep. Your not a functional member of society who happens to have an adventure or two every few months, and live in your house in between.

Your JOB is to go into dark, scary places, kill things, and take their stuff. Its high risk, but it has high reward. Its SO high risk, you cant even narrow down your job to one job roll. Nooo, you have to do 70-80 rolls, with all kinds of target numbers, to get paid.

You cant attach a wealth level to it either. Its freelance and all over the board. But just as I wouldnt charge points for living long enough to reap the spoils of your dungeon crawl, no fair getting points for being homeless, living out of your backpack, and squatting in a neighborhood that makes the worst parts of Baghdad look tame and homey in comparison.

Dungeon Fantasy characters (and several other kinds of adventurer too) dont have a Wealth advantage/disadvantage category, much less a rating in that category. They just have cash money and some equipment, and work within those limits. They need more income? Time to find another Dungeon.

Any other source of income, and your not playing the kind of game that D&D and Dungeon Fantasy (and Munchkin, and Hackmaster...) really talks about. Your playing something more typically GURPS.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

I would use status and associated cost of liwing though..

The chars would of course need higher status to get the cooller quests. Or something like that.. And of course you need status to have a castle of your own with hired guards etc.. So once you got more stuff than you can carry you'd want to get status..

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Actually they do, but it has nothing to do with Jobs. Instead, the wealth level covers waht your base rate of return on selling all that junk you carried out of the dungeon (before taking into account haggling with the Merchant skill).

This, I think, is a brilliant solution and means you can totally ignore the effect of found wealth on the characters wealth level.

STATUS, otoh, is not one of the approved advantages, according to DF 1. Everyone has a weekly "cost of living" of a flat $150 per week, but DF2 has rules for players who want to live in the gutter or under a bush to save cash, and of course Addictions and compulsive behaviors and etc increase cost of living.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

I think this may be a bit too literal an approach. Although a pure dungeon crawl campaign would be as you describe, a campaign with occasional dungeon crawl adventures but also including other adventure styles would not.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Agreed I have ran my own fantasy campaign since 1987 using this style. Using Dungeon Fantasy is not an all or nothing affair. It does need some level of support which is why I am glad to see the DF PDFs released.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Indeed, but as soon as you break the assumptions of a pure dungeon crawl campaign, your back into a more typical GURPS system, and your not really doing something like D&D or Hackmaster. Hell, you might have characters who have skills like Politics or Blacksmithing and actually USE them!

The advantage of GURPS is that you can have a Dungeon Fantasy character and then even have a conversation about things like Status, Wealth, and Jobs. But if you start introducing a world out side of the dungeon and the town where you sell that dungeons loot, your pretty far out of a Dungeon Fantasy game... Which means you dont need a Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards, you need to look up Gurps: Fantasy and Banestorm.

Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards really would be a list of Cool Stuff. Thats the whole point after all. If you need a reminder, dig up your D&D 3.5 DMG. There are between 5 and 11 pages on the world outside of the dungeon, depending on whether you count a section on _randomly generating a town/city_. There are 77 pages of loot and loot rules. In a 320 page book. The section on player wealth details how much cash they should have, max, per level to not be unbalanced.

You can have dungeon adventures in a normal Gurps Fantasy campaign. No argument here. But worrying about wealth levels in a Dungeon Fantasy campaign is missing the point.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Actually not, because back in the day the point of Dungeon crawling was to get the loot so you can conquer a piece of land and use your loot to build a castle.
Having wealth would just help that process.

Wealth levels would not be a disincentive to dungeon crawling because it is far quicker to get your magic items by looting then paying someone and wait all that time.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Yep, yep, agreed.
Oh, your looking to CHEAT! Why didnt you just say so?

If the point is to get enough loot to build a castle, and loot is properly torn from the dismembered talons of your foes, having a thing that, for mere character points, allows you to build that castle seems counter to the spirit of the genre.

But I argue the point to vehemently I think. There are shades and gradations here. The continuum from Hackmaster through D&D to Gurps:Fantasy is unbroken. I just like my Dungeon Fantasy (chocolate) without any of your icky RPG imports from classic Gurps (peanut butter).

Is all Im saying.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Of course. And that is a matter of taste, IMHO. You can be so much black & white about DF as you like.

But because this is all GURPS (Dungeon Fantasy, Fantasy, Cliffhangers, Bio-Tech, Martial Arts, Banestorm, Myth, Infinite Worlds, Dragons...), there is no need to be really "confined" to a particular "genre" (with its inherent limitations); instead we can draw benefits from any source for implementation to our own game style. No need to say, I regard DF as a great and crunchy complement to the sections in 4e Fantasy covering the Dungeons theme:

So Dungeon Fantasy easily demonstrates its potential for being wider in scope.

I agree.


Hum, in these books (Fantasy, Banestorm) I don't find specific equipment I'm interested in, as cool dwarven axes or elven chain mails... That means if one wants that sort of fantasy equipment for his GURPS: Fantasy campaign, DF is a very valuable resource, and unique, without comparison in the entire GURPS line.

Why would be the point to keep it apart?

If I have a bunch of characters suitable for "action fantasy" adventures, I can't see any problem if the same characters have a "third dimension" too (social) for roleplaying when the story demands a social setting. For instance.

Anyway, no real discussion here, only sharing viewpoints.

Cheers

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

The original poster asked for a Dungeon Fantasy entry that expanded DF into realms already (I believe) covered by Gurps: Fantasy and Banestorm (and heck, Basic Set). Demonsbane asks for something that I think fits DF quite well, but was explicitly denied by Taliesin; A list of cool treasure seems a veritable requirement for the DF line.

You could use said list in a more well rounded Gurps campaign. But to suggest that the DF line of PDFs should cover ground involving social roles and patents of nobility strays to far from the genre.

DF: Treasure, or DF:Phat Lewt, or what have you would be well served by lots of tables and descriptions, but also by discussion on how to toss things like the advantages Wealth, Status, and Rank, to better focus on the hack and the slash.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

I agree with that, but this is still mostly a subject full of nuances for me. I follow quoting Taliesin:

And... I agree with this list of ideas, too.

That is because I'm not afraid of nobiliary titles and such entering in DF, if they are going to be useful in Dungeon Fantasy games. With that condition, linking some social advantages in the way described by Robert S Conley doesn't seem inappropriate for me:

So, agreeing with DF pdfs should cover its own territory, it is possible to agree too with these suggestions.

I think the original poster' idea could be rescued thinking about DF handling such treasures-as-social advantages in its own way.

On the other hand, if the number of DF pdfs and themes developed in them is enough large, IMHO it is going to be harder and harder to sharply distinguish between Fantasy and Dungeon Fantasy, because one of the marks of the latter seems to be simplification. With enough development, Dungeon Fantasy has good chances of meeting with Fantasy.

Indeed, one of the points of my earlier post was the regard of DF genre as already contained in Fantasy.

Sorry! I can't make myself clearer, due my language limitations I guess.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

You are actually very clear and you are bringing up a point I didn't consider. I never thought of the DF series as a simplified version of the game. I though of it as a product doing some of the GM's prep work for him. GURPS RAW is just too dang much too much for me.

I love the game to death but I'm no longer willing to put in hours of prep in order to GM a game. I work when I'm at work and if a game starts to seem like work to me I drop it and go play WoW instead. DF1&2 did enough of the work for me that I was able to run several really fun games with it while only needing a few minutes to prep old D&D modules beforehand. I can see many more weeks of fun ahead for us without a problem. But looking ahead I see the players getting all of the skills from their templates and then saying, "what now?" My request is for gee wiz cool things for the players to lust after - be it a really cool magic item, and unique advantage, or even a spell that isn't in the Magic book. I can (and do) make this stuff up myself all the time but the players tend to be a lot happier if it's "official".

Plus Dr Kromm (all hail King Kromm) comes up with better stuff than I do "I'm a trained professional kids. Don't try this stuff at home" and I would love to see what his twisted mind comes up with. In fact I'm willing to pay for the privilege.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

That is... I acknowledge that, too.

Indeed I agree with all your points, so let me subscribe them.

PS: anyone wants to write a DF 2: Dungeons review? Here is the one about DF 1: Adventurers.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

Ha! I just blundered back into this thread to discover this! I'm the one that wrote that review. Now I'm a little sorry, as I spent a lot of time complaining about what wasn't in DF1 and not enough time talking about all the cool stuff that is in there.

Re: How 'bout Dungeon Fantasy: Rewards
 

I knew that ;-)

Indeed I was trying to indirectly encourage you (or any other) for doing a second review of DF 2!

I understand that. But still, there was some point in your complains, IMO.

I think DF 3: The Next Level will cover these points you felt were lacking in Adventurers, and more.

I'm eagerly waiting for it for having in my hands a more complete Dungeon Fantasy product, as I like to call it: Kromm's baseline for future DF pdfs written for other authors to come in the case of Kromm can't keep working in this line anymore {pain!}.