So...GURPS D&D?
 

I'm not sold on the GURPS Dungeons products. I mean, I keep hearing how it pushes the rules to show what can be done, but is it really pushing the rules to turn GURPS into D&D?

Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong, but this is one product (or series of products) that doesn't interest me.

But...convince me. Is there anything useful to running a Banestorm game in these pdfs?

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

The "brilliance" of them isn't turning them into D&D. It's making a game out of them, and focusing GURPS onto one thing.

Let me offer another example: Imagine GURPS Tournament Fighter. It slims down all the martial arts to what works in combat, and slims down powers to reflect Chi techniques. You get cinematic ninjas, cinematic monks, cinematic strong-man soldiers with no-nonsense styles, and cinematic dancers with over-the-top beautiful styles (what have you). The GURPS engine is honed to focus on one style of play, a style it could already do, but this takes alot of the unnecessary work out of it. Thus you can grab the book, pick a template, a style, and get to fighting in a relatively balanced and interesting manner.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy works the same way. It hones the engine to focus on the resource management, hack-n-slash strategies of dungeon crawling games, whether those are Warhammer Quest, D&D, Hackmaster, Diablo or Dugneon Seige. It doesn't change anything: There are no levels, no classes, no new rules. Instead, it shows you how the GURPS engine can already do this sort of game, and provides what amounts to a cheatsheet to do it even faster.

Even if you have no intention of running a dungeoneering hack-n-slash game (Nothing wrong with that), the ideas, templates, monsters and advice can prove useful for any game that even has leanings in that direction. It's a terribly handy supplement, and extremely cheap besides.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Good point.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I like it just for the interesting of ideas for "How-can-I-do-this"? I also like the system where spells are based more on level than on prereqs.

I'd also note that there is absolutely no "pushing" here. No more than making Banestorm was "pushing" GURPS into fantasy...

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Not quite true - the item modification rules in DF:A do add quite a lot, and though they are obviously most appropriate to dungeon fantasy, they easily could be used for any game where similar types of weapons are used.

In a lot of ways, I think DF is like some of the historical supplements: They break out which things are appropriate in that setting, give templates, maybe add a few new advantages, skills, and so on, and mainly just take the huge amount of stuff available and list only the parts that apply to that one setting. DF covers a hugely greater number of settings since it's a genre book, but it still does basically the same thing - it chops down more than it adds to make it easier to handle that one specific genre.

However, it also includes tons of advice and other information that might be helpful in any campaign, whether used directly or as inspiration.

Finally, considering that the templates are 250 pts, you're not exactly starting out at anything equivalent to a D&D "level 1".

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

The above posters are right.

Personally, my main interest is running serious fantasy campaigns (4e Fantasy is my central GURPS book, for saying it in some way), and myself am a Dungeon Fantasy enthusiast because... it is strongly useful in the type of game I want to run.

Furthermore, GURPS DF is all what is great in Dungeons & Dragons but... without its strong non-senses and bad parts!

It is more like showing and playing some GURPS inherent strenghts, until now almost hidden in a potential way during years, for a lot of people...

And the forthcoming Thaumatology is going to enhance all this, I guess...

Definitely, I think this is useful to Banestorm campaigns, and even I think this DF line could be regarded as companion or extension to 4e Fantasy (by William H. Stoddard).

Cheers

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Personally I will continue to use D&D 3.5e for medieval fantasy games (I'm not even interested in 4.0 since 3.5 does what I want it to do). So I can't help you there.

But this system fits my needs for post-apocalypse settings, and its better than d20 Modern IMHO in all of its time-periods (World War, Future, Colonial, Elizabethan (not sure if that's a word) ).

So my suggestion is if you want to remain in Medieval Fantasy, I won't recommend a change to GURPS. But if you want to stretch out into a different genre this is an excellent choice. And if you will be moving between games with different genres including MF, this is also the best choice.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Okay, to begin with, I don't think that it's trying to get GURPS to Do D&D...

GURPS is a generic set of rules (as I'm sure you're well aware), that has been successfully applied to various setting and campaign types. We've got generic Science Fiction toolbooks, generic Fantasy toolbooks that tell you how to adapt your favorite gameworld to this specific set of rules. They've got specific gameworlds and situations covered, from Traveller and Transhuman Space.

Now, by contrast, D&D is a specific set of rules that were originally designed to do Dungeon fantasy. Sure, people use D&D for all sorts of other campaign types, but the original intent of D&D was to design a system that allows you to run adventures where a group of party members head down into a dungeon/cavern/series of tunnels, whatever, fight monsters, and take their stuff.

The fact of the matter is that whether a matter of history, or mass appeal, a *lot* of players play Dungeon Fantasy type games. I play in a D&D 3.5 campaign that is a sort of 'Pretzel and Root Beer' chance to let off steam, blow things up and take their stuff campaign. We use D&D 3.5 because it's well adapted to the kind of adventure that we're playing in.

It isn't my favorite ruleset, but it support what we're doing.

I see GURPS as my favorite ruleset (that I have lots of books detailing Magic, Weapons, Fantasy character types, and settings, such as Banestorm) adapted to play this particular genre of fantasy type game.

So, it's not that GURPS is doing D&D. It's more along the lines that finally, Dungeon Fantasy players (and again, there are a *LOT* of those) have the option to play in the GURPS rules.

Nobody is pushing you to play GURPS rules with your Dungeon Fantasy. It's an option. It's there if you want it.

As I play (occasional) games of Dungeon Fantasy with friends. And as we generally like the GURPS rulesets, this is a great addition to our arsenal of rulesets that cover a different type of campaign.

Frankly, I'm hoping that GURPS publishes these supplements in hardcover and puts them right out there at the FLGS. Not to do D&D, but to give players more options to go with their Dungeon Fantasy. More options is a good thing.

Cheers,

-P.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

HardMaple72 is making my point for me, and I thank you!

What you want to do with these rules is up to you. I personally would be interested in playing in some of the D&D based gameworlds, but with the GURPS rulesets, because the type of the campaigns that I love to play have a lot of social interaction, as well as a lot of things in them that D&D wasn't necessarily built to handle. At the same time, a lot of people are going to stick to D&D 3.5, or whatever system fits the campaign that they're playing, and that's an equally legitimate choice...

Cheers,

-P.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

However, I do! ;-D

With some sourcebooks, GURPS definitely can run more appealing, detailed and depth Fantasy campaigns.

DF 2: Dungeons is in a way more useful than the D&D's Dungeon Master Guides.

Even GURPS melee combat (basic for Heroic Fantasy settings) is uncomparable, and even more if you are using some Martial Arts combat options.

Of course, all this IMO! And anyway, I acknowledge diversity is a good thing.

Of course nothing obligues any GURPS player to use DF material.

Me too! Perhaps as a single volume after the third PDF Sean is working on, or maybe after the fourth (a bestiary?).

Cheers

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Well, I won't go so far as to say that if you are interested in Medieval Fantasy to just stick with D&D. It was not a lack of interest in the genre that made me switch to GURPS. I still love the genre, it is just that GURPS (I think) has a better rule set. With GURPS, I can get a great rule set and apply it to my favorite genre.

There are lots of people who are still interested in Medieval Fantasy, but don't really care for the D&D rule set. Fairly regularly we have people pop in here on the boards looking for exactly that same kind of thing. They want to "covert" GURPS to D&D, and by that most of the mean - How do I play a GURPS game about the traditional subject matter of D&D? These new PDFs really help out with that. It lets someone cut to the chase if that genre is what they are looking for.

It is true that the templates given for the heroes start at 250 points. I'd like to see 50, 100, 150, and 200 point templates of each of the templates, but that is easy enough to do since it would be subtracting from the existing rather than adding to.

For me there is still a certain amount of nostalgia associated with D&D, and at one time I thought about running a AD&D game for old times sake, but couldn’t really bring myself to do it. Instead, I though I needed to create a guide for your traditional dungeoneering fantasy game to run in GURPS, but that never got off the ground because of time constraints. With these .pdfs, I really feel like I could give them to my players (well not the GM part, obviously) and have them make characters, and pull one of my favorite AD&D modules off the shelf and be up and running in a very short amount of time. The best of both worlds.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Nobody is pushing you to adopt GURPS for your Dungeon Fantasy, but I've found a lot of holes in the logic of how D&D 3.5 works in our campaign. I am encouraging my friendly D&D 3.5 DM to consider switching our Dungeon Fantasy campaign over to something being run in GURPS, for a number of reasons. I prefer the system, obviously, to D&D, but more to the point, you can make everyone happy with GURPS as a system. The Storyteller type players (I am one) get to roleplay a character with flaws and advantages, the Tactician in our group already seems to be loving the system, with its many options for warriors in combat, and you could still run a campaign with enough of a point total to satisfy the Butt Kickers in the group.

So, considering the player styles in our group, my suspicion is that GURPS might be a better ruleset than D&D for running a dungeon crawl with a roleplaying aspect to it.

-P.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

The point of Dungeon Fantasy isn't to turn the game into D&D. The point is that there's a popular gaming subgenre that, in GURPS, requires you to plough through a 576-page set of generic core rules (the Basic Set) to find gear and applicable options, plus a 240-page book on magic (Magic), while borrowing elements from a 240-page genre guide (Fantasy), a 240-page book on powers (Powers), and a 256-page Fechtbuch (Martial Arts). What Dungeon Fantasy does is boil down the really vital elements of all this stuff to a few 32-page PDFs that reduce your overhead to just the Basic Set and Magic, and that minimize your page-flipping and maximize your play:preparation ratio when using those tomes.

It sounds like your real criticism is "I don't run dungeon fantasy games." If you're not into the subgenre, it's probable that you won't find much use for a game aid-cum-genre guide intended for it. Even so, you might find DF: Dungeons of value, since it includes a lot of simplifications of athletic feats, shopping for gear, traps, travel, and hundreds of other tasks encountered in nearly every action-adventure subgenre. It would probably be of use in a 1930s pulp campaign or any other campaign where the heroes travel, explore dark places, and run into foes. You probably won't find DF: Adventurers useful . . . so it goes.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

So, DF:A is sort of a subgenre book? A step-down transformer, if you will, of the high-tension lines that are GURPS? Well, at that price-point, a whole series of books, not just DF, might be useful. Sort of a replacement for all the historicals and genre books of 3rd ed?

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I agree. It primary appeal to me is that it saves time. It's not like we have all day to stat up every thing or come up a new combination of Magic, Advantages and Enhancements to build our worlds and adventures.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

That not entirely correct. Original D&D was designed to expand on the fantasy and man to man rules of a medieval miniatures wargame. The reason that that minatures game got fantasy is so players could run battles in Middle Earth. The dungeon came about because going into the dungeons of Castle Blackmoor or Castle Greyhawk is what started the focus on individual characters.

However the second activity everyone was did was use the loot to go carve out a barony and build a castle. Using D&D for fighting monsters and clearing out lairs and Chainmail for fighting any battles that were needed.

However when D&D spread beyond the initial circle of wargamers people focused on the dungeon element. Miniature wargamers became a minority in the D&D hobby.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

That a good choice. But Dungeon Fantasy can done in GURPS and done well. I been doing it since 1988 when I switched my main fantasy campaign over. I have some notes on different aspects here http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands.

The Dungeon Fantasy pdfs are great because now I have a firm benchmark to set my stuff too. Monsters have always been a problem either too weak or too strong. Most of my adventures in the past have revolved around human or humanoid opponents.

The reason I even used 3.0 in 2000 a couple of times is that it was enough like GURPS to suit my GMinng and now I have all these shiny monsters and modules to play with.

But frankly I built so much homebrew stuff for my own game that it was just wasn't worth the hassle of the switch. Also I had issues with the power curve of 3.X after 10th level. In the end I returned to GURPS where I happily remain to this day.

Recently I ran a conversion of Blackguard's Revenge (Dungeon Crawl Classic #12). With GURPS 4th.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Well, sure. My use of 'original', I had meant to use as the original assumptions behind the existing ruleset. Certainly if you go back to the origins of D&D, it is in a wargame. But D&D 3.5, for example, was designed to be a bit closer to Dungeon Fantasy than to Medieval Fantasy.

-P.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Ok, makes sense now.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I see the Dungeon Fantasy line as genre supplements in the just the same way as GURPS: Steampunk, GURPS: Celtic Myth, GURPS: Traveller, or whathaveyou.

Dungeon Fantasy is such a well-established part of pseudo-fantasy gaming that it has taken on a life of its own, even the language has infiltrated other games (the 10' pole is a ridiculous thing to take down a cave system, yet it is fondly associated with dungeon crawling).

There are two options if you have a system which covers the same territory as "old school" D&D dungeon crawling; ignore it and blithely turn your back on its conventions, or embrace it as a ridiculously contrived yet lovable genre. SJG have done the latter, and all power to them.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I'd proposed to my players that we play some old school Basic D&D, just for some one-shots. There was a mutiny (which I eventually joined) and now I'm converting some Basic D&D modules to GURPS.

I'd forgotten just how crummy magic-users are at first level.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

When I read DF: Dungeons I realized the simplifications would be just the thing for my GM style. In fact I was already using similar houserules, for things like kicking down doors, falling damage etc. in all genres that I run. (Mostly "Action" of some type: Swashbucklers, Cliffhangers, Traveller, StarWars, Fantasy.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

First off, Dungeon crawling is what most people do. We can pretend that we do a lot of intellectual stuff but most game time is spent killing things and taking their stuff. There's a reason there are 10 million people playing WoW.

Second, GURPS is not going to be D&D because GURPS is better. Frankly if you prefer 3.5 then you're doing it wrong. The hard part is getting entrenched 3.5 players to even try GURPS. Dungeon Fantasy makes this much easier. A guy that used to say, "You all are playing GURPS this weekend guess I'll go to a movie then" is one of the most excited members of the group after being convinced to play only one game.
That being said, woe to the GM who tries to run GURPS exactly like 3.5. He will be in for a rough time.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

My best friend, who tried to run a D&D 2nd Edition campaign about 10 years back featuring beginning elven warrior and wizards (and we abandoned the campaign after a single session-- none of us were aware of just how completely gimped elves are in that D&D system, and 1st level wizards with a penalty to Con are practically asking to be killed by a housecat) is my D&D 3.5 DM now, and has been dropping Dungeon Fantasy .pdf files into his hard drive as fast as he can download them...

I suggested to him that the same campaign that would have been a total party kill, thanks to some of the quirks in how D&D handles things would make for a very exciting Action-Adventure type campaign. He agreed, and indicated just how impressed he is with what he's learning about GURPS 4th edition, and how as soon as I'm done running a mini-campaign in the next couple of months, he's going to look seriously at a similar revisitation of the campaign idea.

I'm very excited by the prospect of handling an elven saber while wrapped in chainmail and shooting orcs with a burst of magic, if they should get close :)

-P.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I think the necessity of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is that a lot of stuff fits into that genre, but wouldn't see light anywhere else. If GURPS is to remain truly universal it must refrain from no genre or subgenre. Hell, we're talking about a system that did Bunnies and Burrows for heaven's sake.

From a philosofical point, if GURPS is generic it must be usable and adaptable to dungeon fantasy. Like a truly chaotic and imense system is bound to have some "ordered" subsystems purely by chance.

Things like "spiked armor", or weird equipment and gear wouldn't show up in Low-Tech... this frustrated me in 3ed. So what if there was no historical bronze chainmail (just an example, I know there was)... my setting has it, how do I do it? How about fine, balanced and iron shields... sure they were rare, but in fantasy adventures "rare" is the bread and butter of the adventurers.
DF: Adventurers brings a lot of this stuff, wich I can use in my non cinematic, low-fantasy, gritty campaing. GURPS Fantasy didn't give me a lot of stuff I wanted, DF: Adventurers brought some of those things about.

It's the first RAW example of non-prerequisite Power Investure magic. Too.
The equipment quality and options alone are worth it.

I probably won't use the 250 cp templates for anything besides remote inspiration. I don't play on that power level and don't enjoy cinematic campaigns, but there's a few very handy rules in there.

I think a D&D style line of GURPS books was greately overdue. There is a market for that, a lot of players don't like the mechanics of D&D, but find the mass of information and adaptation needed to run a dungeon crawl in GURPS mind boggling.

If you don't run dungeon crawls (like me), but run Fantasy you'll get few very nice things from DF:A, if you don't run Fantasy at all, the book is probably not worth the cash. But if you do run classic hack-and-slash dungeon crawls and "old-school" fantasy adventures, then DF:A has you covered and will likely provide a fresh and new experience in this subgenre.

Sure, I'd take more out of Thaumatology, Low-Tech and the like... but DF:A is short, cheap and sweet.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Hmm... Maybe we can use that "title as imperative" argument to press for all the niche products that people want? Like GURPS Daytime Television, GURPS Kaiju, and so on. If it's so universal, where are those books, HUH??

Heh, just messin' with ya *g* It was a good post... but no swipes at B&B! :|

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I'd love to see a GURPS Thrillers series that covers Hollywood's weird mix of poorly differentiated intelligence, police, and security officers that run around foiling an equally weird mix of poorly differentiated mobsters, spies, and terrorists. Not really GURPS Action! . . . I don't mean kung fu and gun fu (although that would be cool, too). I'm talking about a parallel to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy: Adventurers -- call it GURPS Thrillers: Agents and Officers -- with templates (analyst, cleaner, detective, hacker, infliltrator, sharpshooter, social engineer, surveillance expert, technician, etc.), a simplified system for credentials (Legal Enforcement Powers-Rank-Security Clearance), a boiled-down gear list, and a table full of modern cars. And a parallel to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy: Dungeons -- call it GURPS Thrillers: Missions and Ops -- with quick-and-dirty rules for break-ins, car chases, dead drops, detective work, EOD, interrogation, sniping, surveillance, etc.

Too bad I'd be the world's worst author of everything after the templates and credentials system! I love dumb thriller movies that start out like bad jokes: "So there's this FSB guy, FBI guy, and SAS guy, see, and they're working together for this secret U.N. task force to bring down these Chinese spies funding Iraqi terrorists through the Russian mob . . ."

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

It depends which D&D you're talking about. And how cinematic you play GURPS vs how cinematic you play D&D.

We had a thread about this a few months ago, on how best to map D&D's levels to points in GURPS. People varied from as much as 50 to 500 points on what a "Level 1" adventurer could do, but each individual level after that most people agreed would be 25 or 50 points.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Ooooh... I'd buy those, specially the first!

While we're at it, Sci-Fi books with the same premise would work great (the smuggler, the pilot, the officer, the tech, etc...). I don't know how the sales for DF are going (I expect relatively well) and what the cost of production of these short .pdf books is... but I'm betting they'd make a buck.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

And then GURPS Space Opera -- the same stuff in space. GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 2: Dungeons is filled with the type of thing that every genre can use. Again, a useful book would be one addressing these situations in many genres and Tech Levels.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Fortunately, there are these things called Heward's Handy Haversacks that make such issues as size and weight go away very, very quickly, and IMO, very few Dungeon Fantasy dungeons are going to be natural caves--or at least the size and shape caves you see in the real world.

Besides, things often live in those caves--things of human size or larger, often have lived there for hundreds or thousands of years. Hell, the passages nearest the surface must be burgeoning with incomprehensible graffiti, messages, warnings, signposts and innumerable other markings carved into the rock walls, floors and ceilings.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Sounds like the old "Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes" or "Danger International" genre. I loved those, mainly because the lines were so blurred.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

do you have a link for that one?

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I'd love to see this, too.

*Writes down the last half of this for later use as an adventure hook for his cinematic private security firm campaign he has boiling in the back of his head*

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I certainly agree that there are better "serious fantasy" books and settings for GURPS... after all, "serious" and "realistic" are things that GURPS does very well. However, Dungeon Fantasy is _fun_, and doesn't seem to be intended to be serious. For me it captures both the simple-but-effective rules of my AD&D days (back when dinosaurs walked the Earth) and the sometimes munchinky silliness of 3.5 D&D.
I think of DF as the GURPS "killer app"... it's likely to appeal to a large group of D&D players (both former and current) that might not otherwise touch GURPS. There are also a number of people abandoning D&D (because of 4th ed.) that might be willing to play DF (especially a DF with GURPS Lite) but aren't so likely to play GURPS otherwise.
My players are certainly enthusiastic about DF.

At the risk of sounding like I'm sucking up (which I'm not), I feel that DF cements Dr. Kromm's place in the great pantheon of game designers (such as SKip WIlliams, Monte Cook, Metzer, and so on)... as if GURPS in general wasn't enough.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

The problem is that some people take their Space Opera quite seriously.

You could call it GURPS Pulp Space, taking from Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon and such. That way, instead of having to live up to grand arcs of heroism tieing both GM and players down, you'll know you'll be fighting mustachio-twirling badniks, zapping blasters for the sake of having blasters, and dogfighting in giant sausage-shaped spaceships with tail fins that make ships go faster because they have really big rockets in the back.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Another friend joins the Cult of Kromm Worship!!

Hallelujah!

-P.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

On my first read I read that as "the sometimes muchkinky silliness of 3.5 D&D", and realised that I really wanted to join your games....

The guy that mainly GMs "other" games (and is the D&D GM) in our group is in this category. He is looking to run a GURPS Celtic Myth campaign in the near future (when my copy of 3e Celtic Myth reaches me from the States) having never run GURPS before. In addition, he is making interested noises in the direction of DF, mainly because he sees the glorious possibility of running a dungeon bash without the silly artificial constraints of the D&D system. Needless to say, I am right behind him all the way, prodding him in the right direction.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Oooh. I see what you guys did there... now.

I was about to reply to you and ask "huh? Where's the joke?", and then got it as soon as I hit "quote".

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

[spongebob laugh]Nerereererererer[/spongebob]

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

How playable it is with GUPS LITE only? I don't have too much 4E stuff...
How ready to play it actually is? I've heard it's sort of a genre book - but can I just grab it and throw the characters inside the dungeon rolling rooms and monsters randomly from ready made tables etc etc?

Could it be played almost like a boardgame - withouth the GM raally not deciding anything.

I'm not that interested about the DF:A - making GURPS characters is fun and I've newer really had troubles with it - but I feel GMing GURPS is a bit too hard.

I could see these used as "filler adventures" in semi serious campaings. IE when the GM doesn't have that epic plotline ready and the players don't have anything much in mind either there's always the - hey let's go explore that dungeon - option..

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Have you been reading my game notes? Oh, wait, my ships aren't sausage-shaped. They're shaped like X-wings and ARC-170s because I'm lazy and have toys of those so I can just point to them instead of describing the ships.

Seriously though, if a GURPS Pulp Space was available, I'd buy it for sure. As it is, I found a lot in Dungeons that I'll be using to simplify things in my space opera game, specifically the Getting Ready to Go section.

As for turning GURPS into D&D, you know, I find it fascinating people keep saying things like that since none of the D&D players I know actually like dungeon crawls. They consider them a lesser form of gaming.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

No to the three questions. Dungeon Fantasy is fully GURPS -not a "lite product"- and it links directly to the Basic Set and Magic, in essential advantages, disadvantages, skills, magic spells, and rules.

However, I think one could handle it someway with GURPS third edition.

Then DF: Dungeons is your book.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

That makes me feel understanded, because in my days of AD&D, I was really bent in playing it like if it were GURPS. A pain... And I did can't whitstand the way of other gaming groups around playing AD&D in the way it means to be played ;-)

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Well, there are actually some new rules. If there weren't I wouldn't find it nearly as useful. These aren't huge, worldshaking changes; they're more on the level of the house rules I would make up if I were running a dungeon fantasy anyway. For example, "if you're in town, you can make an Urban Survival roll to rummage in the sewers for coin. Success nets you $1 per point of success. Critical failure means you get a disease." So the new rules are useful, especially because it gives everyone doing DF an "official" common baseline. Similarly, clearly delineating that Bards can buy Mind Control (with limitations) even though it's supernatural is a new, setting-specific rule that is useful under the conditions of Metcalf's Law: it gets more useful as more gamers start using DF.

I wasn't particularly impressed when I first skimmed DF: Characters (although I've since gone back and liked it more) because it seemed to be mostly templates and rules for creating clerical powers, etc., with no rules added from the Basic set. DF: Dungeons impressed me a lot more with new rules, equipment rules and options, magical items, etc. Crunchy bits, as it were.

-Max

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Yes!! So would I.


I am currently running a Forgotten Realms GURPS campaign using DA 1 and 2. Great resource for my campaign.

PS: Any word on DA3? :P For this next weekend :)

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

DF 3 is now written, edited, checked and handed along for art and layout. Unfortunately, I don't think this coming weekend is an attainable goal. Perhaps by next weekend?

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

That sounds good... let's shoot for that *ig*

Next item?

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Interestingly enough, I slotted DF3 into my budget for Feb 25th. Not a bad estimate apparently!

I'm guessing it's going to be the same price as the other two?

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Cool.

Great news, thanks for posting this.

I think so, and I think too it is going to be a 31-32 pages document. But I don't mind to be wrong here...

PS: Then, we wait for it during the next week?

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Do remember that any estimated delivery date is an estimate, not a promise. That goes double for any creative work and double again for small companies, where one person getting sick or otherwise redirected can materially alter a timeline. Terms and conditions apply. See manufacturer's warranty for details. Contians small parts; not for use by children under 3. Past performance is no guarantee; value may go down as well as up. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear. Close cover before striking.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I will try to remember this. All this.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

And since I said that, it has had a rough layout, which I have seen and checked. All it needs now is a few bits of art and an index. Next week is looking really good.

It's more like 44 pages. I can't say how this will affect the price . . . that's TBD at this time.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

44 pages... That is great!

I wonder if DF 3 ("The Next Level", I think) is going to be mainly the complement for DF 1: Adventurers, or it is going to be equally complementary to DF 2: Dungeons.

In other words, it would be all "characters & races" stuff, or it will include some bits of advice, rules or info about the Dungeon/GM side?

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

All but a small part of DF 3 is more like volume 2 of DF 1 than anything else . . . although the GM could use the nonhuman races as monsters, and the guidelines for awarding XP and charging training expenses are really GMing advice. There's plenty there for the GM to play with, then -- it just isn't volume 2 of DF 2.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Indeed. I think it contains Q&D rules about small equipment suited for characters smaller than SM 0...

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Very Q and very D -- I can hear the realism purists cussing me from the future -- but those rules will be there!

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

They should be happy. Kromm himself is giving them a base on which to improve.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Sure.

But if they complain, we will whack them quickly with dirty but official SM>0 clubs.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

... Sorry, did I say that out loud?

heh

In the future, I will try to restrict my criticisms to the present.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I think I can cope with a price change then :D

(now I understand how you fit eleventy jillion templates and lenses and things in! You cheated! :D )

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

He already was known by "cheating" 16 pages in Martial Arts.

D*mn. Today you can't trust anybody.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Ask Phil Reed what he thinks of my "cheating" sometime. At least I write very dense prose, so while it might be over length, that isn't because it's fluffy.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

It's just that much MORE coolness being jamned in. Every page is worth it, from where I'm sitting.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

That is why I like this cheating behaviour :)

Please keep cheating in this way.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Step-down transformations of GURPS, distilling the system into those elements that are relevant, cannot replace the 3rd Edition-style historical supplements, which were extremely research- and fact-intensive.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Sure, but the two Dungeon Fantasy books don't replace Magic in any way, or even the pertient parts of Martial Arts.

I'd much have preferred to see a version of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy that did away with spells, and handled everything with Advantages. Even if it meant that the core book would be 64 pages instead of 32 pages, and cost 40%-60% more.

GURPS already has Healing, and Speak With Animals/Plants as ready-to-use advantages, so with some extra work put into it, you could have built ready-to-use advantage versions of Offensive Fire Magic, Fire Shield, Lightning Bolt, Invisibility, Illusions and so forth, and of course also pointed out the most obvious enhancers for Healing (such as Ranged, and Accurate to give a bonus to the roll).

That would have made it possible to run Dungeon Fantasy campaigns without needing to own GURPS Magic or even needing to reference the few spells that are in the GURPS core books.

And it would also have changed the dynamic of the game somewhat, I think, even of ultimately most instances of magic use would still cost FPs and therefore be largely similar to how spells are used and not used.


As for Martial Arts, re-printing the 2-3 most crucial pages of Techniques would do the trick (at least you did reprint the archery advantage, but that's not enough).


Likewise, I'm very disappointed to see that there aren't any pre-built advantages for Monks and Bards; instead, players must build them themselves, then do the arithmetic, and then submit the final advantage builds to the GM to see if he approves them.

In the end, such pre-built advantages can be much more atmospheric and stylish and flavourful and cool, than the usually very basic and frill-less ones that most players will build.


Oh, and by the way, where are the "racial" templates? And optional "racial" advantages? GURPS Dungeon Fantasy badly needs a splatbook.

(Also include "Bane"-type weapons in the splatbook. They're very much a part of the dungeon fantasy genre, and IIRC they exist in GURPS Magic as Enchantments already, so leaving them out of the DF core looks strange.)

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

A very good case can be made that D&D and fantasy are two completely different genres, same as espionage novels and space opera novels.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I disagree.

To write a historical supplement for GURPS, such as Steampunk or Celtic Myth, you need research skills.

To write a "rules distillation" of GURPS, such as Dungeon Fantasy, you need a very different skill set (which Kromm has, even if I'm quite unhappy with some of the decisions he made).

It really is a big mistake to not distinguish between historical supplements and rules distillations.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

How can you be sure that those 10 million people aren't playing "World of Warcraft" because when they play that game, they get away from the nasty and harmful and utterly stupid "GM is God"-meme?

(Hint: You can't be sure of that.)

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Huh? There's a whole Power writeup each for Monks and Bards, with limitations already applied to abilities and costs figured out for you. They may be a little plain for your tastes, but they're there.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Does anything need to be after the templates and credentials system? You can always refer people to GURPS Espionage if they wnt to knowa bout FSB and FBI, and to GURPS Special Ops if they want to know about SAS.

The templates and credentials, and the distillation of the generic GURPS rules elements, would be exactly what makes such a PDF attractive.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

Note that this wasn't their goal. Paul and I have said repeatedly here and on RPGnet that, were we shooting for a self-contained game intended to go toe-to-toe with D&D, it would look nothing like DF.

Well, since part of our marketing goal with DF was to raise the profile of GURPS as an FRPG and ultimately sell more copies of Fantasy and Magic, that wouldn't have been a good approach.

That wouldn't have made GURPS look half as attractive to FRPG players, though. Magic contains well over 800 spells! There's no way I could include that many abilities built from advantages in a PDF.

Techniques are a fussy advanced concept. They're really not very attractive or easy to understand for those not interested in full-bore Martial Arts action.

Did you perhaps not read pp. 21-22 of the PDF? All of the abilities for Bard-Song and Chi Mastery (and also Druidic Arts and Holy Might) are completely worked out, with all of the modifiers and point costs. All players have to do is write them down and pay the points.

Coming in a future installment. This is a PDF series -- which might go to dozens of PDFs -- not an all-in-one product.

You seem to have a weird idea about what DF was supposed to be. It's meant as an extended series of inexpensive game aids for gamers who've bought all kinds of GURPS books -- especially Magic -- and just want to see a subset of that stuff gathered in one place to help them kick off a classic campaign type. It isn't meant as a book replacement, a one-volume game, or anything like that.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

I borrowed Hero System's "Danger International" from a friend in 2006 and was quite unimpressed with it, because almost all of the book was stuff that I already knew very well from the Hero System 5th Edition rule book.

There was one section that I really liked, however. Really, really liked. I think it was 6 or 7 pages, detaling the state of the world in a particular year in the mid 1980s, talking about various geopolitical problems and the balance of power. Top stuff for any espionage or international intrigue campaign set in that exact period (which is probably the period where I'll set my modern era RPG campaigns).

If I could find Danger International for $10 or less, plus reasonable shipping cost, I'd buy it, just for those very few pages.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

One major attraction of Dungeons & Dragons, from 3rd Edition onwards, is that the rule books are full of pre-approved character design elements that players know they can freely assemble. All Feats are legal. All spells are legal. Any and all combinations of Feats and spells are legal.

That gives a tremendous freedom, and sense of freedom, from GM censorship, and from the horrible, evil, harmful "GM is God"-meme that pervades most of the rest of the RPG community.

And that is something that GURPS Dungeon Fantasy isn't trying for at all, which is why I disagree with you. GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is not the killer ap for GURPS 4th Edition. It could have been, if Kromm had gone the crunchy bits route. But he didn't.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

The most disappointing bit about the two GURPS Dungeon Fantasy PDFs is exactly that they contain almost no crunchy bits at all.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

DF is plenty crunchy: 11 detailed templates are crunch, the new wildcard skills are crunch, the division of magic into three types with distinct spell lists is crunch, the four powers with completely worked-out abilities are crunch, and eight pages of gear stats -- including customization rules for armor, shields, and weapons -- are crunch. You must be using the term very differently from 99.99% of gamers if you don't see this. DF just isn't a dweeby rethink of fantasy that uses only advantages and powers with dozens of befuddling modifiers, and techniques that require understanding advanced combat to use. For the sorts of players who like that stuff, I wrote Martial Arts and Powers. DF is my break from writing stuff like that.

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

What's in it????

Re: So...GURPS D&D?
 

"Crunch" is a very poorly defined word, and hence I never use it. I also try, as much as possible, to discourage others from using it, since it carries no meaningful information.

"Crunchy bits", however, is a term with a very well-defined and easy-to-understand meaning, coined by Robin Laws in a book published by SJ Games. It is a very useful word, and I wish more people would use it, and much more often.