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-   -   Lose 2 levels even if you escape. (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=35237)

spectre13 01-15-2008 01:21 PM
Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Several monsters have the text that you lose something or other even if you escape, the most common i've seen being "Lose 2 levels even if you escape." My question is: do you lose those two levels, in addition to the bad stuff if you run away but DONT escape?

Shadowere 01-15-2008 01:43 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spectre13
Several monsters have the text that you lose something or other even if you escape, the most common i've seen being "Lose 2 levels even if you escape." My question is: do you lose those two levels, in addition to the bad stuff if you run away but DONT escape?
Successful Run Away: Lose 2 levels

Failed to Run Away: Suffer Bad Stuff

Basically you are not walking away unscathed.


IMO, Shadowere

ArcadianRefugee 01-15-2008 03:15 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowere
Successful Run Away: Lose 2 levels

Failed to Run Away: Suffer Bad Stuff
Really? The problem there is the proper English for such would be "Lose two levels if you escape" which would give you:

Failed to Run Away: Suffer Bad Stuff
Successful Run Away: Lose 2 levels

However, the card (in the example) reads "Lose 2 levels, even if you escape." This would mean you lose two levels if you lose, even if you escape.

Meaning:
Failed to Run Away: Suffer Bad Stuff (with a minimal level loss of 2)
Successful Run Away: Lose 2 levels anyway

At least I have always viewed it as the latter, though I think the one that comes to mind (Wight Brothers) makes it a moot point, as the Bad Stuff is "You become Level 1" iirc.

I'd honestly never considered it the "either/or" way. I just figured that no matter what happened, if you had to run away you were looking at a level loss of at least 2, no matter failure or success.

Shadowere 01-15-2008 04:45 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcadianRefugee
Really? The problem there is the proper English for such would be "Lose two levels if you escape" which would give you:

Failed to Run Away: Suffer Bad Stuff
Successful Run Away: Lose 2 levels

However, the card (in the example) reads "Lose 2 levels, even if you escape." This would mean you lose two levels if you lose, even if you escape.

Meaning:
Failed to Run Away: Suffer Bad Stuff (with a minimal level loss of 2)
Successful Run Away: Lose 2 levels anyway

At least I have always viewed it as the latter, though I think the one that comes to mind (Wight Brothers) makes it a moot point, as the Bad Stuff is "You become Level 1" iirc.

I'd honestly never considered it the "either/or" way. I just figured that no matter what happened, if you had to run away you were looking at a level loss of at least 2, no matter failure or success.


Oops! My bad...Thanks for the correction.....


Shadowere

PK 01-15-2008 09:10 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spectre13
Several monsters have the text that you lose something or other even if you escape, the most common i've seen being "Lose 2 levels even if you escape." My question is: do you lose those two levels, in addition to the bad stuff if you run away but DONT escape?
Yes. If you fail to run away, the Bad Stuff happens. If you successfully run away, no Bad Stuff happens. Then, in addition, you lose two levels.

Ozzymindous 01-18-2008 05:25 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
The card King Tut has the -lose 2 levels, even if you escape- but its bad stuff is lose all items and your hand. So it would make a big diffrence here.

MunchkinMan 01-18-2008 09:23 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Regardless, RPK and AR are correct: If you have to Run Away, you're losing 2 Levels because you had to Run Away. Failing to Run Away simply offers further hardship.

Bazz 01-19-2008 11:52 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
do you lose the levels before or after you try to escape? the example i can think of offhand is if you had some powers which affected your roll to run away (luck of the fae, celeritousness, also several other powers could affect it in some way or other) then if you losr levels first, you might then have to lose the powers, affecting your roll.

just a rthought.

Rilyntar 01-20-2008 07:25 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazz
do you lose the levels before or after you try to escape?
As MunchkinMan said that RPK is correct, you first suffer the bad stuff (if so) and then loose the levels.

Bazz 01-20-2008 12:40 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
true, but the way Erik phrased it might indicate otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunchkinMan
Regardless, RPK and AR are correct: If you have to Run Away, you're losing 2 Levels because you had to Run Away. Failing to Run Away simply offers further hardship.
If taken precisely then the second that you have to run away, then you lose 2 levels, and when he saiys failing to run offers "further" hardship, that indicates you've already undergone hardship, i.e., losing 2 levels. I was just wondering.

MunchkinMan 01-20-2008 02:11 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
I don't know that we ever really thought it would be this important. To be honest, I've always considered it part of the Bad Stuff, essentially, so I've always just done it after the roll to make things simpler. I don't see the point it trying to make it overly complicated.

tysop 01-21-2008 07:34 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Here's a situation I came across when it is important. My wife was fighting a Wraith - lose 2 levels even if you escape, and asmodeus together - bad stuff you're dead. She chose to run away from asmodeus first, arguing that if she failed she wouldn't lose the 2 levels from the wraith, since she would be dead. My argument was that she'd lose the 2 levels anyway, since she couldn't defeat the wraith. Who was right?

Andrew Hackard 01-21-2008 08:51 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysop
Here's a situation I came across when it is important. My wife was fighting a Wraith - lose 2 levels even if you escape, and asmodeus together - bad stuff you're dead. She chose to run away from asmodeus first, arguing that if she failed she wouldn't lose the 2 levels from the wraith, since she would be dead. My argument was that she'd lose the 2 levels anyway, since she couldn't defeat the wraith. Who was right?
She was. The rules say that the player Runs Away from the monsters in the order she chooses. The rules also say that death ends your turn immediately. By dying to Asmodeus, she never had to try to Run Away from the wraith.

tysop 01-21-2008 09:27 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard
She was. The rules say that the player Runs Away from the monsters in the order she chooses. The rules also say that death ends your turn immediately. By dying to Asmodeus, she never had to try to Run Away from the wraith.
That's what we ended up doing - even though the cards are mine! She managed to convince me! It was just confusing with earlier posts.

MunchkinMan 01-21-2008 09:36 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysop
That's what we ended up doing - even though the cards are mine! She managed to convince me!
My advice, if you wish to win more arguments: Get a comfy couch. Then the agony of victory doesn't come with a stiff back and a crick in your neck.

However, aside from marital advice that I may for may not be qualified to give, I will say this: Andrew is correct, and, realistically, it's the simplest and most efficient way of handling things.

Bazz 01-21-2008 12:18 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
the comfy couch can also come in useful when the SO is trying to convince you she's right...

ArcadianRefugee 01-22-2008 08:41 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard
She was. The rules say that the player Runs Away from the monsters in the order she chooses. The rules also say that death ends your turn immediately. By dying to Asmodeus, she never had to try to Run Away from the wraith.
Erik:
What about monsters like the Space Probe that phrase it "...lose 2 Levels if they fail to defeat it, even if they escape"? Were she fighting Asmodeus and the Space Probe, would she have lost those two levels then?

(emphasis mine)

Acrux 01-05-2011 11:56 AM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MunchkinMan (Post 518234)
Regardless, RPK and AR are correct: If you have to Run Away, you're losing 2 Levels because you had to Run Away. Failing to Run Away simply offers further hardship.
If you fight the monster and win, what happens? Do you still lose the two levels making you end up at the same level as before your fight. Or do you gain two levels?

Thanks

Grax 01-05-2011 12:16 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrux (Post 1101382)
If you fight the monster and win, what happens? Do you still lose the two levels making you end up at the same level as before your fight. Or do you gain two levels?

Thanks
in the case of "the Evil" from M.Bites, there is an instant level loss. Though for a majority of the monsters that apply to this thread, it is only if you have to run away, or if you lose to the monster depending on how the individual card is worded.

There are other cards that have wording on losing various cards/items before the combat begins. Most are fairly easy to figure out. :)

Kirt 01-05-2011 12:27 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcadianRefugee (Post 520394)
Erik:
What about monsters like the Space Probe that phrase it "...lose 2 Levels if they fail to defeat it, even if they escape"? Were she fighting Asmodeus and the Space Probe, would she have lost those two levels then?
In reference to Wight Brothers, Andrew ruled here that "If you die, you do not suffer ANY negative effects from monsters you haven't yet tried to run away from."

Thus, even if the level loss is not technically Bad Stuff, dying at the hands of one monster protects you from the level loss caused by another monster, and that seems like it would cover Space Probe.

An exception might be "the Evil" - I have not seen the text of that card. Grax, does that specify that the level loss occurs before combat?

MunchkinMan 01-05-2011 12:36 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acrux (Post 1101382)
If you fight the monster and win, what happens? Do you still lose the two levels making you end up at the same level as before your fight. Or do you gain two levels?

Thanks
This is the result of losing to the Monster, not just for facing it. If you were supposed to lose two Levels immediately, just for facing the Monster, that would be stated quite clearly (check out the Tongue Demon).

Grax 01-05-2011 12:45 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirt (Post 1101394)
Grax, does that specify that the level loss occurs before combat?
It is an immediate effect - M. Fu also has several monsters with instant effects that are not part of the bad stuff - just part of the monsters personality and take place immediately. ;)

Acrux 01-05-2011 12:55 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MunchkinMan (Post 1101400)
This is the result of losing to the Monster, not just for facing it. If you were supposed to lose two Levels immediately, just for facing the Monster, that would be stated quite clearly (check out the Tongue Demon).
so gaining two levels then! thanks for clarifying that, have done it wrong before!

cheers!

Nerftw 01-05-2011 01:25 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirt (Post 1101394)
Andrew ruled here that "If you die, you do not suffer ANY negative effects from monsters you haven't yet tried to run away from."
I would have laughed hysterically if you had linked to his actual post in this thread that says the same thing.

Kirt 01-05-2011 01:47 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerftw (Post 1101424)
I would have laughed hysterically if you had linked to his actual post in this thread that says the same thing.
In this post, Andrew answered a question about "lose 2 levels even if you escape".
ArcadianRefugee followed this up by asking about a situation where "...lose 2 Levels if they fail to defeat it, even if they escape"

In this post, Andrew said "By dying to Asmodeus, she never had to try to Run Away from the wraith." In the post that I linked to, Andrew said "If you die, you do not suffer ANY negative effects from monsters you haven't yet tried to run away from." (i.e. negative effects that are not Bad Stuff, that will occur even if you successfully run away).

I considered them separate but related issues at the time I made the post.

However, reviewing the FAQ definition of defeat,
""defeating" a monster involves beating it in combat or removing it from play in such a way that you do not have to Run Away,"
I would have to admit that "lose 2 levels even if you escape" and "...lose 2 Levels if they fail to defeat it, even if they escape" mean exactly the same thing and thus my post was indeed redundant.

My apologies.

Nerftw 01-05-2011 02:21 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
I wasn't intending to chastise you, sorry if it came off that way. I just found it amusing that I was expecting that link to go straight to the post in this thread.

kotya 03-10-2012 02:02 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
I'm sorry, but I still have doubts with this, could you please answer the following questions?

FAQ stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ
Q. King Tut and the Wight Brothers say "Characters of higher levels [than 3] lose 2 levels, even if they escape." Does that mean you lose two levels even if you defeat those monsters?
A. No. But if you cannot defeat them, then you must try to run away, and you'll lose the 2 levels even if you do escape. If they catch you, of course, you do suffer the Bad Stuff from those Monsters. (But you don't lose the two levels twice!)
I'm not sure what the phrase in bold means, could you please clarify it?

1. Suppose you're figthing with Space Probe (the character loses 2 levels if they fail to defeat it, and Bad Stuff is losing 2 levels, Armor and Headgear), and you lose the combat. What will be his negative effect if you fail the Run Away?
a) lose 2 levels, Armor and Headgear
b) lose 4 levels, Armor and Headgear

2. The same situation for Mr. Bones (lose 1 level if you fail to defeat it, and Bad Stuff is losing 2 levels). If you fail the Run Away, how many levels will you lose?
a) 2 levels
b) 3 levels

Is there a common approach for this situation?

3. If I fight King Tut and its Mate (or King Tut and Wight Brothers), do I have to lose 2 levels twice if I've failed to defeat them and successfully run away from both?
4. If I fight Space Probe and Its Clone (or, for example, Space Probe and King Tut), do I have to lose 2 levels twice if I've failed to defeat them and successfully run away from both?
Is this a common approach for the rest of monsters or the FAQ answer regards to King Tut and Wight Brothers only?

Clipper 03-10-2012 02:53 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotya (Post 1334916)
I'm sorry, but I still have doubts with this, could you please answer the following questions?

FAQ stated:



I'm not sure what the phrase in bold means, could you please clarify it?

1. Suppose you're figthing with Space Probe (the character loses 2 levels if they fail to defeat it, and Bad Stuff is losing 2 levels, Armor and Headgear), and you lose the combat. What will be his negative effect if you fail the Run Away?
a) lose 2 levels, Armor and Headgear
b) lose 4 levels, Armor and Headgear

2. The same situation for Mr. Bones (lose 1 level if you fail to defeat it, and Bad Stuff is losing 2 levels). If you fail the Run Away, how many levels will you lose?
a) 2 levels
b) 3 levels

Is there a common approach for this situation?

3. If I fight King Tut and its Mate (or King Tut and Wight Brothers), do I have to lose 2 levels twice if I've failed to defeat them and successfully run away from both?
4. If I fight Space Probe and Its Clone (or, for example, Space Probe and King Tut), do I have to lose 2 levels twice if I've failed to defeat them and successfully run away from both?
Is this a common approach for the rest of monsters or the FAQ answer regards to King Tut and Wight Brothers only?
I think the bolded stuff is there to indicate that you don't lose the two levels upon attempting to escape and then again in the bad stuff (as you consider the two levels to be part of the bad stuff).

Thus, in questions 1 & 2, it would be your second option, and in questions 3 & 4, given you run from each creature separately and Mates are separate creatures, then yeah, you'd lose 4 levels even if you escape from both.

thedag 03-10-2012 05:16 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
so earlier in this thread munchkin man said you lose two levels and if you fail to run away that is further hardship. That is you lose two levels as well as the bad stuff. in the FAQ for two monsters it says you would not lose the two levels and further hardship of bad stuff. This seems to conflict unless it is clearly different wording on the cards so one can tell in which case you suffer both when failing to run away. Or is there something else I'm missing?

MunchkinMan 03-10-2012 07:01 PM
Re: Lose 2 levels even if you escape.
 
Andrew posted the update to that FAQ recently, so he can explain better what he was trying to say. At this point, I don't see a need for further conjecture until such time as he can weigh in.


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