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-   -   Is a 5th Edition coming soon? [Answer: NO, it isn't!] (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=29575)

beetle496 03-26-2012 07:59 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1337501)
Fourth Edition isn't perfect, either. However, the fact that all of its add-on rules content (as opposed to things like licensed settings) is available in easily updated, perpetually available, and electronically searchable PDF form helps a great deal. It means that we can update content retroactively in a form that lets customers easily look up references (especially true for customers who realize that PDF readers can search all the PDFs in a given directory/folder like one big book!). It also means that we don't have to throw as much money at reprints; if a customer can't afford a supplement this week or this month, it will still be available next month or next year, and might even be updated by then. All of this – the latter in particular, from a publisher's point of view – is a strong argument against Fifth Edition.

Well, I finally bit the bullet and recently purchased the two starter hard covers. Even though I have not played in a decade, I was still buying source books regularly, but $65 was a lot for was for me recreational reading! (Especially when I had all the 3e material, 2x compedium et al.)

I have to say this though: PDF is a lousy choice for an electronic format! It is great for printing, but lousy for use on-screen (tablet or otherwise). Multiple columns on screen? Vertical and horizontal scrolling? Arbitrary (context insensitive) "page" breaks on something that only ever lives electronically? Static table of contents -- and where is the other hyperlinked text? (The PDF format supports structured text and hyperlinks of course, but SJG does not seem to bother with that.) It's not only that so much of your stuff is PDF only, but that you do only a mediocre job with the PDFs!

Also, SJG charges too much for PDFs. I have to pay for the ink and paper, and it is never as good as something professionally printed. I bet if you were to cut the PDF prices in half you would sell four times as many! What has SJG done to ensure that you have picked a close to optimal point on the price-demand curve? I have no complaints about what you charge for hard copy. Your PDF pricing seems to be picked only not to compete with the bound version. But then you don't keep things in print!

I am a long time loyal customer. I have purchased dozens, maybe even a hundred, SJG products (especially if I can count Microgames in that tally), who has cut way, way back on his SJG purchase in the last several years because I cannot find hard copy stuff like I used to be able to. Sure, my local game shop will special order for me, but I don't buy unless I can browse first!

Here's my two requests:

(1) Embrace truly digital native publishing: ePub or iBook. I would pay the prices you are asking on e23 prices for electronic formats that were actually robust.

and/or

(2) Hook up with a print-on-demand publisher: I would pay your e23 prices for hardcopy mailed to me. I will not pay what you are asking for PDFs.

robkelk 03-26-2012 08:46 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
From previous comments on this forum, and the fact that there was a (small) price increase at e23 a couple of years ago, I suspect the price of the PDFs reflects the cost of creating and distributing * them compared to the number of sales they generate.

As for ePub or iBook, as far as I know neither of those works on my PalmPilot. PDF does.

You have a good point about lack of inline markup. Bookmarks aren't the same...


* Yes, there is a distribution cost. T3 connections to the Internet aren't cheap, nor is enterprise-level storage.

sir_pudding 03-26-2012 04:16 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1342787)
Here's my two requests:

(1) Embrace truly digital native publishing: ePub or iBook. I would pay the prices you are asking on e23 prices for electronic formats that were actually robust.

Are you aware that SJGames is actually a very small company with only a handful of full-time employees? They can barely keep their cash cow (Munchkin) in print. Who do you suppose will do all the work to publish GURPS books as ePubs?

Also what happens to the layout of the books when you do this? If you get rid of the columns what happens to the page references? What happens to the box text?

Quote:

(2) Hook up with a print-on-demand publisher: I would pay your e23 prices for hardcopy mailed to me. I will not pay what you are asking for PDFs.
They apparently aren't pleased with the low quality control currently available in POD. They've wanted to do in-house POD for awhile (to the extent of having the space available for it) but I think this is another man-power problem.

roguebfl 03-26-2012 04:29 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1342787)
I have to say this though: PDF is a lousy choice for an electronic format!

Excpe for many many thing you are overlooking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1301433)
On references:

The reason why we prefer "see p. B113" (for instance) is that it uses fewer words than "see the Onset limitation," never mind "see Exposure Time under the Onset limitation." Where a number of relevant topics occur throughout content defined by a page range rather than a unique section title, it's much quicker to say simply "see pp. B472-473" than "see every section titled Complexity in Chapter 17." Brevity is good for comprehension; the longer the interruption, the larger the percentage of readers who will end up rereading and becoming frustrated with the work. Equally important is the fact that there are hundreds of such references in each GURPS book, and word count matters when editing and printing a book.

The main reason why we dislike case numbering is mainly that we polled our customers about it and they came down roundly against the idea. The secondary reason is the one already given: Typical readers unfamiliar with case numbering find references that use it to be overwhelmingly inferior to those that use page numbering. Page numbers are part of the experience of almost every reader. Case numbers are familiar to lawyers, wargamers, and perhaps one or two other rarified groups.

Hyperlinks would indeed be faster and more intuitive than all of the above. They're also unsuitable for a published work that isn't wholly available in a digital format that supports links, and entirely useless to customers who print their PDFs.

For the time being, then, references to absolute page numbers are deemed favorable by both the majority of customers and the publisher. They're also one of our primary ties to PDF. It's safe to say that the PDF format isn't going away, and that as tablets mature, they'll support PDF more seamlessly. This is definitely a question of hardware evolution, though. Changing the way we publish books isn't the solution . . . We could make changes, but these might well prove to be bad decisions on future hardware. By holding firm on publishing standards, like page numbers and the PDF format, publishers can influence hardware manufacturers. The arrow of influence should not point the other way, as digital readers exist to facilitate the use of publications; publications do not exist as a means of justifying digital readers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by September 22, 2010: Why PDF?
Over on the e23 section of the Steve Jackson Games forums, one question that's arisen is: "Why does e23 still release our products solely as PDFs when there are other electronic options out there?"

As a preliminary aside, note that these answers aren't "ex cathedra"; they don't represent the closing of all other possibilities unto the end of days. Technology constantly evolves, and data formats and communication techniques are a moving target. (I still chuckle when I read old GURPS books that proudly proclaim how you can contact our bulletin board with a 300-baud modem.) Still, they're our best guesses for how things are, and will likely be for a while.

So why do we use PDF? Because, simply, it works. It's not an ideal format in all cases, but it serves a large enough audience well enough that there are no other serious contenders. First, it's an excellent format for printing -- which many of our customers do. It's also quite readable on computer screens, especially large ones. For e-book readers that support the PDF format, our documents generally do well. (This may seem obvious, but it's good to point out: Because our PDFs aren't too complex or filled with hideously elaborate backgrounds, the tiny processors on PDF-capable e-book readers can handle most of our supplements just fine.)

"But why," you might ask, "can't you release the PDF and also release a version of the book formatted in another way (a horizontal screen-friendly PDF, an electronic-book format, or the like)?" Simply put, cost. For obvious reasons, the need to lay out a book twice would result in twice as much layout work -- which, in turn, would increase the final cost of the PDF by a lot. We put a great deal of care into the layout of our supplements, and we wouldn't be content to do a slapdash conversion to an alternate format.

In addition, almost all of our supplements lose functionality if we tried to release them in another format; most e-book formats rely on being able to reflow dynamically, which would break page references and indexes. (Sure, this isn't a huge problem within one book, but how do you handle a reference to another book, like "See Acid on p. 428 of the GURPS Basic Set"? It's not insurmountable, but it's still annoying.) Dynamic reflowing also seldom works well for tables, sidebars, and artwork.

Still, there's another reason. The ability to read and consume PDFs is only getting better. I purchased a computer screen several years ago that could rotate 90 degrees, to view full pages in a portrait mode. Nowadays, that same monitor would cost a third of what I paid -- although it's largely moot, because computer resolution and screen size has improved so radically. Today, it's easier and cheaper to buy a widescreen monitor and read two pages side by side, like a real book! Similarly, I often read our PDFs on the iPad, and it's a delight. The technology to read PDFs is only going to get better as the years go by.

In a lot of ways, I envision the PDF filetype -- at least for RPGs and other table-heavy layout-dependent material -- to be a lot like the MP3 format. Just over 10 years ago, the MP3 was solely the domain of big, clunky computers. A few years later, it was the format for expensive dedicated units. Today, devices that support MP3s are everywhere; I received one that was literally free a couple of years ago (it was built into a gift card at no additional cost). A high-quality MP3 from 1996 still plays fine today, and it'll play fine for decades to come on thousands of devices; the same can't be said for proprietary or unusual audio formats that have come and gone in the intervening years. Similarly, PDFs have proven to be a resilient format, and I can still use a dozen different programs to read PDF files from a decade ago; I suspect I'll be able to have them projected directly into my eyeballs with the high-tech Retina-Etch Display System to be built into the sixth-generation iPad.

Or, if I want, I'll still be able to print them, too . . . and they'll look great.

-- Steven Marsh


Captain-Captain 03-26-2012 04:48 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
My top of the head prediction: Not before 2025... I'm not sure we'd have gotten 4th yet if not for the D20 over reaction by the game ndustry, and most of that was "We have to sell hardback books!"

jeff_wilson 03-26-2012 05:42 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1342787)
Arbitrary (context insensitive) "page" breaks on something that only ever lives electronically?
...
Also, SJG charges too much for PDFs. I have to pay for the ink and paper,

Dad, is that you?

Alacrity Fitzhugh 03-26-2012 06:18 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stankkyzer (Post 1342756)
Hello Dracodruid, fans are still happy with GURPS 4e, there is no need of 5th edition is coming soon.

You do realize this thread was created five years ago, right?

ericbsmith 03-26-2012 06:21 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1342787)
I have to say this though: PDF is a lousy choice for an electronic format! It is great for printing, but lousy for use on-screen (tablet or otherwise).

To paraphrase Winston Churchill, PDF is absolutely the worst possible format... except for all the others. eBooks have to serve many masters, and the only format that does so with any amount of usability and grace is PDF. There are better formats for eReaders. There are better formats for reading on computer screens. There are even better formats for printing. But there is no better format for doing all three in one, and for a small company they cannot afford to republish their ebooks into multiple formats, so you choose the lesser of all the evils, which is PDF.

robkelk 03-26-2012 06:23 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alacrity Fitzhugh (Post 1343130)
You do realize this thread was created five years ago, right?

The question keeps coming back - I'm glad that it keeps coming back in the same thread.

And, even five years later, there is still no need for a 5th edition any time soon.

sir_pudding 03-26-2012 07:38 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robkelk (Post 1343132)
The question keeps coming back - I'm glad that it keeps coming back in the same thread.

And, even five years later, there is still no need for a 5th edition any time soon.

Of course this really isn't about that anymore, but rather about pdf versus some other format.

Refplace 03-27-2012 12:40 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith (Post 1343131)
To paraphrase Winston Churchill, PDF is absolutely the worst possible format... except for all the others. eBooks have to serve many masters, and the only format that does so with any amount of usability and grace is PDF. There are better formats for eReaders. There are better formats for reading on computer screens. There are even better formats for printing. But there is no better format for doing all three in one, and for a small company they cannot afford to republish their ebooks into multiple formats, so you choose the lesser of all the evils, which is PDF.

This for PDFs.
I can read GURPS PDFs on my HTC Hero, a phone several years old.
I can also read them on my computer or print them out and am pretty content that no other format will work as well on all 3 mediums.

robkelk 03-27-2012 08:29 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1343157)
Of course this really isn't about that anymore, but rather about pdf versus some other format.

And that question keeps coming back, too... <sigh>

What is this Need some people have for the newest thing when the older thing it's intended to replace still works?

Kromm 03-27-2012 11:12 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Resurrected topic or not, everything that was said earlier remains pertinent:

SJ Games has neither the staff nor the money to produce several versions of each RPG product, one optimized for each of digital, POD, and traditional print publication. Thus, the company produces everything just once in a format that all of these media can accommodate moderately well: PDF. All recent digital devices can display PDF and all present-day printing technology can work from PDF. Nobody at SJ Games would disagree that hyperlinked electronic formats that flow to accommodate the individual reader would be wonderful, but these would be troublesome at best for printing, and we simply don't sell enough copies to justify parallel production threads.

As the production process is identical for all media right up to the print-and-ship phase, the price tag in each case is largely the same. Paper, ink, and shipping aren't cheap at all, but they aren't half the price tag of a physical book, either. The company has to maintain its premises, cover its business expenses, and pay its staff and freelancers. Most of the price of any RPG supplement pays for the writing, editing, layout, art, indexing, and proofing of the thing, along with overhead (accounting, marketing, office space, computers, etc.). The premise that digital formats are quick and easy, and thus nigh unto free, only holds true when the content and production are of very low quality. Professional values cost money.

This does mean that those who choose to print their PDFs may end up paying more than if they had bought print books, as they pay the same amount for the "intangibles" as if they had bought printed books, and then don't reap the volume discount on printing that a publisher enjoys. However, the choice to print PDF is exactly that: a choice. Going purely digital is always an option, and one we support by giving our customers free accounts with persistent PDF libraries that they can download to whatever device they happen to be using. For instance, I read my GURPS supplements on a desktop PC, laptop PC, tablet, and phone, and I've done so on three continents. If I were a paying customer rather than staff, I would be paying just once for this privilege.

Archangel Beth 03-27-2012 01:01 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
And compared to some publishers who shall remain nameless (but they're ones who don't pay for numerous interior illustrations or fancy layout with boxed text, tables, etc., let alone indexes), SJ Games' PDF discount is extremely reasonable. I look at the pricing difference for electronic vs. dead trees the way I do because of the comparatively low prices of SJ Games PDFs.

whswhs 03-27-2012 01:50 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1343398)
This does mean that those who choose to print their PDFs may end up paying more than if they had bought print books, as they pay the same amount for the "intangibles" as if they had bought printed books, and then don't reap the volume discount on printing that a publisher enjoys. However, the choice to print PDF is exactly that: a choice. Going purely digital is always an option, and one we support by giving our customers free accounts with persistent PDF libraries that they can download to whatever device they happen to be using. For instance, I read my GURPS supplements on a desktop PC, laptop PC, tablet, and phone, and I've done so on three continents. If I were a paying customer rather than staff, I would be paying just once for this privilege.

I thought that was the case, but wasn't 100% sure. My girlfriend is wanting to get an iPad, and part of her sales pitch has been, "You could put your GURPS books on it and take it to games!" (as she could afford an iPad much more easily if I helped out with the price). From what you're saying it sounds as if that would work. . . .

Bill Stoddard

Kromm 03-27-2012 02:16 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs (Post 1343482)

I thought that was the case, but wasn't 100% sure. My girlfriend is wanting to get an iPad, and part of her sales pitch has been, "You could put your GURPS books on it and take it to games!" (as she could afford an iPad much more easily if I helped out with the price). From what you're saying it sounds as if that would work. . . .

It would work – you would start the iPad's browser, navigate to e23, log in with your account's username and password, and download the PDF to the device. Unlike, say, the iTunes Store, e23 doesn't enforce a download limit or restrict MAC/IP authorization to a small number of devices. Our barrier to abuse is that to download the file, you must log in with the ID we accept as validation for password changes and purchases. On a device you own or trust, that's no big deal. By contrast, an unethical user freely handing out access to his or her account would soon have somebody cache his login info, with predictable consequences (and little sympathy at our end).

Steven Marsh 03-27-2012 02:40 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs (Post 1343482)
I thought that was the case, but wasn't 100% sure. My girlfriend is wanting to get an iPad, and part of her sales pitch has been, "You could put your GURPS books on it and take it to games!" (as she could afford an iPad much more easily if I helped out with the price). From what you're saying it sounds as if that would work. . . .

I do that all the time with my iPad. If you want to download them on the fly, you want a good full-featured PDF reader (GoodReader is awesome). Nikki Vrtis just inherited my old first-gen iPad, and from an editorial/production perspective she's found it immensely helpful to have access to the entire GURPS library on a two-pound device.

dbm 03-28-2012 06:38 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
There are a couple of long threads floating around the forums on this. iPad of any stripe can handle the GURPS PDFs and the 'new' iPad is fantastic for this purpose. I've just counted and I have 120 GURPS PDFs on my device - increadible really. We live in the future.

I will say that the two-column format is easier to read (IMO) than the three-column format, but other than that the solution is pretty much perfect. Good PDF readers and bookmarked PDFs (which SJG do) mean you can navigate pretty easily and word searching is brilliant.

As to price - professional results cost money, and we are really operating on Steve Jackson's good will and the coat tails of Munchkin here, so overall I think the prices are very reasonable.

beetle496 03-28-2012 07:19 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1343496)
...Unlike, say, the iTunes Store...

All this discussion about iPads. Any plans for iBook versions?

I appreciate the comment about PDFs being a bad format, just not as bad as other choices, but I do not believe that is true anymore. ePub 3, in addition to having all sorts of great features for something which is consumed on-screen, also can render to print just as well as PDF.

It is not like the issues with PDFs have not been known for a decade, and it is not just net cranks complaining: PDF: Unfit for Human Consumption Avoid PDF for On-Screen Reading

I really do understand the labor issue too. Also, part of my motivation for buying so many books in the beginning was that I was trying to keep Steve from going out of business (again)! I still buy source books that I never expect to use, but my largess does not extend to PDFs! I buy much less now, even with more disposable income, because I cannot find GURPS manuals on the shelves.

Obviously, you think you have it worked out, and your current business model lets you scratch by. Maybe the kids really are buying more stuff than the grognards, but I am skeptical. What have you done to convince yourselves that the price point is right? How do you not know that cutting the PDF price in half wouldn’t result in four times the amount of sales?

Your price for print publications is fair, and there really is no way for you to reduce that. Also, you have set PDF pricing based on a reasonable discount from the print version, a discount that is more aggressive than many print-oriented publishers. I submit that it is not enough.

The iTunes App store created millionaires in no small part because it turns out that software developers, in trying to break even, were setting the MSRP too high and strangling themselves. Apple is poised to revolutionize electronic publishing, just the same way they did for music and software. Is SJGames going to get a piece of that gravy train?

dbm 03-28-2012 11:02 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1343897)
Obviously, you think you have it worked out, and your current business model lets you scratch by. Maybe the kids really are buying more stuff than the grognards, but I am skeptical. What have you done to convince yourselves that the price point is right? How do you not know that cutting the PDF price in half wouldn’t result in four times the amount of sales?

It's been tried, check this out for the details.

Rasputin 03-28-2012 11:03 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1343897)
I appreciate the comment about PDFs being a bad format, just not as bad as other choices, but I do not believe that is true anymore. ePub 3, in addition to having all sorts of great features for something which is consumed on-screen, also can render to print just as well as PDF.

How much better is ePub 3 than older versions of this format? I have Adventures in Oz, which comes in both ePub and PDF, and the ePub version is almost unusable since it can't handle tables right.

Rasputin 03-28-2012 11:14 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1343897)
It is not like the issues with PDFs have not been known for a decade, and it is not just net cranks complaining: PDF: Unfit for Human Consumption Avoid PDF for On-Screen Reading

You are aware that these two links on Nielsen's site discuss PDF vs. HTML web pages, right? This isn't relevant to an iPad mimicking a printed book.

Kromm 03-28-2012 12:12 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1343897)

ePub 3, in addition to having all sorts of great features for something which is consumed on-screen, also can render to print just as well as PDF.

Take it to a major offshore printer, or even a mid-sized domestic one, and ask. They will tell you "no," and request PDF. Until PDF ceases to be the de facto standard – and it is the de facto standard – we intend to stick with it. We cannot afford to be adventurous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1343897)

What have you done to convince yourselves that the price point is right? How do you not know that cutting the PDF price in half wouldn’t result in four times the amount of sales?

The price is right because after a couple of repricings, we have found that it's what we can afford to charge. Sales have driven prices up, not down, since e23 opened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1343897)

Also, you have set PDF pricing based on a reasonable discount from the print version, a discount that is more aggressive than many print-oriented publishers. I submit that it is not enough.

It's what we can afford, and that's pretty much that.

You cannot compare pen-and-paper RPGs to mainstream books, music, and apps because the hobby is a shrinking niche within a shrinking niche for cultural and social reasons – even if we gave the stuff away, fewer people would take free copies than formerly bought expensive copies. The hobby had its heyday in the 1970s and 1980s, and is now a boutique market. The thing with boutique markets is that generally, they work by selling high-priced special-interest goods to people who genuinely want them. It takes some kind of sweeping social phenomenon, not marketing intent, to convert a boutique market into a mainstream one.

We do appreciate people looking out for our interests, but please don't assume that we do no homework. We have staff whose job it is to do nothing but handle print-buying, sales, and marketing, and who are career professionals in the RPG industry, some who started as far back as the 1980s. Our sales model and pricing are based on hard analysis, not guesswork. I've sat through the long meetings with spreadsheets and laptops out, graphing trends and looking at margins. Basically, "Digital should cost a lot less, and get away from PDF ASAP" is a nice fan view, and may well apply to one-off fan productions, but reality shoots it down with extreme prejudice as an ongoing business model for a royalties-paying RPG publisher.

sir_pudding 03-28-2012 03:24 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robkelk (Post 1343329)
What is this Need some people have for the newest thing when the older thing it's intended to replace still works?

I can understand why people want this. Reading pdfs on my Kindle isn't anywhere near as easy or enjoyable as reading an ebook. It's just an unrealistic expectation.

Alden Loveshade 03-28-2012 05:28 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1344034)
Take it to a major offshore printer, or even a mid-sized domestic one, and ask. They will tell you "no," and request PDF. Until PDF ceases to be the de facto standard – and it is the de facto standard – we intend to stick with it. We cannot afford to be adventurous.

I haven't had as much experience with this as Dr. Kromm, but that's what I've seen as well. I've been helping with a book that the publisher just sent to the printer. It had been laid out in a couple different formats already. But we learned that most printers for book publishers want pdf, so we had to convert it to that.

The handy thing is that if we format it as an electronic book, the formatting is virtually already done.

adm 03-28-2012 07:14 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
This is a general question, not one directed towards SJGames.

As long as e-books have been out there, aren't there programs that will convert your files to the e-readers preferred file format?

sir_pudding 03-28-2012 08:57 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by adm (Post 1344267)
As long as e-books have been out there, aren't there programs that will convert your files to the e-readers preferred file format?

I don't think there's anything that can handle box text, page references, and tables in anyway that's preferable. At least I haven't seen anything. The best I've found is using Briss to cut off the margins.

Archangel Beth 03-28-2012 10:14 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1343496)
It would work – you would start the iPad's browser, navigate to e23, [...]

You can do all that on the fly, yup! I've been known to. (Opening in GoodReader. It's not a free app, but it's worth the price.)

You can also download the files to your computer, open iTunes, plug in your iPad, open the iPad panel, open the Apps panel, scroll down, click the GoodReader icon at the bottom, and then do "Open" and add all those PDFs in one swell foop. (I do this with Stanza and epub files, mostly, but I am 90% sure that it works just the same with GoodReader.)

Considering how great my retina iPhone looks, I can imagine that a retina iPad would be really sweet. ...but my sturdy iPad 1 is still going strong! I must remain steadfast and loyal!

Kromm 03-28-2012 11:08 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by adm (Post 1344267)

As long as e-books have been out there, aren't there programs that will convert your files to the e-readers preferred file format?

Yes, but not while maintaining layout and pagination. Since GURPS items rely a lot on absolute page references, and feature many tables and boxes, this can be an issue.

zorg 03-29-2012 12:15 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth (Post 1344335)
(I do this with Stanza and epub files, mostly, but I am 90% sure that it works just the same with GoodReader.)

It does. I have all my RPG pdfs (not just SJG) on my ipad and ipod in GoodReader. Works just dandy.

Refplace 03-29-2012 12:44 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1343897)
I appreciate the comment about PDFs being a bad format, just not as bad as other choices, but I do not believe that is true anymore. ePub 3, in addition to having all sorts of great features for something which is consumed on-screen, also can render to print just as well as PDF.

Your price for print publications is fair, and there really is no way for you to reduce that. Also, you have set PDF pricing based on a reasonable discount from the print version, a discount that is more aggressive than many print-oriented publishers. I submit that it is not enough.

The iTunes App store created millionaires in no small part because it turns out that software developers, in trying to break even, were setting the MSRP too high and strangling themselves. Apple is poised to revolutionize electronic publishing, just the same way they did for music and software. Is SJGames going to get a piece of that gravy train?

PDF works for free on all the platforms I use. Can the same be said for youe ePub?
As for the price point, most new supplements are under $10 I really dont think that is a bad price point. Nor do I think its expensive enough that volume would significantly increase, much less enough to offset the costs for a higher profit ratio for all involved.

As to the software thing, really Apple? They are infamous for being a failure in that regard. Too much hassle to get most developers to be happy working with them, which is why Android has passed them by for phones and working on tablets.
And another issue is the sheer volume difference. If you build software you have to cover your SDK, equipment, licensing and training time as intangible costs plus the time to write it and then sell and promote it. This results in very expensive software if you do it each custom but you can sell many copies then you can spread some of that cost around for a lower selling price.
Same with publishing. But you have to figure out the volume and if the volume drops too low then you cant make money without charging more.

Unfortunately you have a lot of people who somehow think electronic means cheap or free becasue they do not understand all the costs involved.

roguebfl 03-29-2012 01:03 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496 (Post 1343897)
Apple is poised to revolutionize electronic publishing, just the same way they did for music and software. Is SJGames going to get a piece of that gravy train?

They are going to fail. I iTunes and music because you can play the song on more than then iPod that you buy. Apples /prportiyy/ fork of the open epub format LOCKS the publisher in so that they can only be read on Apple devices. That means even if the successively modify the epub format to actully satifies the needs of the reference book market the publish STILL needs to use a separably layout process signification increasing there cost or abandoned support for anything non iOS ro MacOS, that means Android which is out selling them is a closed market to those publisher, so is the PC, Linux, and Windows Mobiles. Which also means abandoning e32.

Oh and even if the publisher considers that risk worth taking and puts all the eggs into a product that will only work on Apple producets, Apple still resved the right to deny you access the iBooks store on any grounds they wish, like like Itunes and Apps store, so all you development can be down the drain before the customer ever get to see your product.

Oh here the other thing the differences Itunes worked because broke the barrier need to buy online songs... Book publishers haven't created such a tight noose as the RIAA had for online sales for iBooks to have the demaned to push iPad back on top and mae publishers /need/ to get on the ban wagon.

If you want a publisher to watch to see whee the referring book market jumper with electronic publishing watch O'Reilly Books. a major References book publisher with close ties computer industry and an owner dedicated to invitation.

http://shop.oreilly.com/category/cus...vice/ebooks.do

ak_aramis 03-29-2012 06:22 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 1344385)
PDF works for free on all the platforms I use. Can the same be said for youe ePub?

Assuming your platforms include any of the following, yes: Mac OSX, Linux, Windows 2K through 8, Android, iOS, Sony Reader (600 and later), Nook.

Calibre will serve most of your needs on the laptop/desktop side... and will convert many formats into other formats for your favorite devices.

As for iOS and Android, lots of choices. Your service provider may have locked out some in the Android Market, tho.

http://www.goomedic.com/20-epub-read...d-mac-osx.html


The one problem with ePub is tables. A workaround is (much like web BBS forums) to use monospaced fonts and careful use of underscores to pad out data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbm (Post 1343971)

And it likely failed for being a niche producer within the niche market. I only got things from them via bundles... I was certainly underwhelmed by the content.

Turhan's Bey Company 03-29-2012 07:58 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ak_aramis (Post 1344455)
And it likely failed for being a niche producer within the niche market.

...which is precisely what SJ Games is, which I believe is Kromm's point.

Polydamas 03-29-2012 10:55 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Also, GURPS had books which could be viewed in black and white and organized into numbered paragraphs for easy reflowing and navigation (although it didn't chose to number them that way). It gave them up when it went over to 4e, because their marketing research said that pretty books on good paper would do better than plain books on rough paper. They also moved away from rules that require anything more advanced than a few arithmetic operations to calculate, so I think references like "see Low Tech §99-113" would scare away more readers even if they made it easier to read GURPS on a Kindle.

Kromm 03-29-2012 11:45 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Case numbering is simply ugly. We have polled people about it before . . . there's always a significant grognard vote in favor of it, and always a much larger "Holy hell, no!" vote against it. Most people don't want RPGs to read like the General Income Tax and Benefit Guide 2011 (I mean, once you read to p. 12 or so). Thus, for now, the desire to be able to exploit POD if the costs become favorable means that we'll be sticking with absolute page numbers. And that plus our desire for tables to be pretty, typeset things without ugly monospaced fonts and underscores means that we'll be sticking with PDF for the foreseeable future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 1344385)

As to the software thing, really Apple? They are infamous for being a failure in that regard. Too much hassle to get most developers to be happy working with them, which is why Android has passed them by for phones and working on tablets.

I tend to agree. I was a faithful user of the iPhone and customer of the iTunes Store for years. Eventually, I realized that even the higher-end Android phones cost less – my wife and I got two of the latest, greatest Samsung phones and a 10.1" tablet for the price of one iPhone 4S, which simply wasn't available at couples-plan promotional pricing because Apple didn't deem that a goal in our region, while Samsung doesn't try to tell telecom companies what deals they can offer. And the Android phones are self-evidently faster and more capable than my friend's 4S. The last straw was the iTunes Store being jerks about letting me play the music I had paid for on my Android phone . . . no, they wanted to dictate my platform.

So I can't say that I see Apple as a shining beacon of good business sense, and I do not push to follow in their tracks. The online retailer I admire most is Valve's Steam Store. Whenever SJ Games asks me for my input or vote, it's in the direction of being more Steam-like, not more iTunes-like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company (Post 1344487)

...which is precisely what SJ Games is, which I believe is Kromm's point.

That was indeed my point. The pen-and-paper RPG business is already a tiny, diminishing niche. Within it, there are a couple of titans, and then there's SJ Games. We're big in the realm of card and dice games, and are making headway on board games, but we're not an RPG giant; that side of our business is smaller than it once was, and "niche within a niche" describes the GURPS situation well. For most purposes, GURPS is produced by about four people on a neglible budget. It can afford to hold its course, but not to engage in adventures in formatting and distribution.

RevBob 03-29-2012 03:43 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by adm (Post 1344267)
As long as e-books have been out there, aren't there programs that will convert your files to the e-readers preferred file format?

Are there programs that will take the text out of one format and dump it into another? Of course.

Do those programs do so well, maintaining even such trivial-to-convert things as boldface, italic, and section breaks? In my experience, no. I actually bought a Kindle primarily to avoid the hassle of converting legally-purchased Kindle-exclusive content over to something I could put on my Kobo; the cash outlay for the device outweighed the hassle of conversion for me.

And I manage a big website for a living...

Rocket Man 03-29-2012 07:13 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polydamas (Post 1344552)
They also moved away from rules that require anything more advanced than a few arithmetic operations to calculate...

Not to sidetrack the conversation, but I've never seen that much advanced math required, even in 3e GURPS. The only books that even required me to pull out the calculator were Vehicles and Space -- the latter mainly for calculating a planet's year-length and doublechecking its gravity. (And I'm a newspaper reporter, so my math skills are ... basic, to be kind.)

"GURPS is/was math heavy," is one of those memes that strikes me as more myth than fact.

Turhan's Bey Company 03-29-2012 07:24 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1344575)
It can afford to hold its course, but not to engage in adventures in formatting and distribution.

So much for my pitch for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Adventure 2: Mirror of the Printer's Devil.

Steven Marsh 03-29-2012 07:47 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocket Man (Post 1344813)
"GURPS is/was math heavy," is one of those memes that strikes me as more myth than fact.

I've encountered a slight math-heaviness when dealing with limitations/enhancements; multiplying non-round numbers by 1.7 or 0.4 is a smidge tricky for me. ("Okay; I want four levels of Less Sleep that only works when under extreme stress. Oh, and I want to be able to share the ability with allies, too." "Sounds awesome! Sigh. Let me get the calculator.")

Peter V. Dell'Orto 03-29-2012 08:24 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company (Post 1344819)
So much for my pitch for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Adventure 2: Mirror of the Printer's Devil.

Well, it does clear the way for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Adventure 2: Niche of the Lich, though, so you better get on that one right away.

ericbsmith 03-29-2012 08:59 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Marsh (Post 1344836)
I've encountered a slight math-heaviness when dealing with limitations/enhancements; multiplying non-round numbers by 1.7 or 0.4 is a smidge tricky for me. ("Okay; I want four levels of Less Sleep that only works when under extreme stress. Oh, and I want to be able to share the ability with allies, too." "Sounds awesome! Sigh. Let me get the calculator.")

That's still nothing compared to, say, what Hero's "enhancement/limitation" system used to be (and still is?). Though they did provide the nice conversion table that usually did the math for you. I still don't see GURPS as being very math intensive outside of Vehicles and the various Spaceships rules (Space 3e, Spaceships 4e).

sir_pudding 03-31-2012 03:38 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog (Post 1344866)
Well, it does clear the way for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Adventure 2: Niche of the Lich, though, so you better get on that one right away.

I always thought that "Lich" had the same root as "Lichen" and therefore was a homophone of "like". Am I wrong?

roguebfl 03-31-2012 03:51 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1345499)
I always thought that "Melody wandered over to look at her old/new doll. They'd really matched Robin's features well, even the little nick next to her left eye." had the same root as "Lichen" and therefore was a homophone of "like". Am I wrong?

um not sure which you mean by Liche

Niche I've always head and sound like knee-sh
where Lich sounded more like a female dog. neither sounding like 'like'

both using soft 'c' that is close to 's' not hard 'c' that similar to 'k'

sir_pudding 03-31-2012 03:54 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roguebfl (Post 1345501)
um not sure which you mean by Liche

You are complaining about a typo? Really? :)

Quote:

Niche I've always head and sound like knee-sh
Yes.
Quote:

where Lich sounded more like a female dog. neither sounding like 'like'
I've heard that. I've always thought it wrong though. Lichen and lichyard have the same roots. I'm pretty sure that the undead wizard does too.

roguebfl 03-31-2012 04:01 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1345503)
You are complaining about a typo? Really?

No I was honestly asking which one you mean. as I hadn't heard of the German word for corpse until after I posted. so I wasn't sure if you were making a type for Niche or Lich with Liche both are only 1 letter typo difference from each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1345503)
I've heard that. I've always thought it wrong though. Lichen and lichyard have the same roots. I'm pretty sure that the undead wizard does too.

Wikipedia cites the the oxford dictionary in using the ch as in china for lich not the k sound.

Kromm 03-31-2012 10:38 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
If we're being pedantic, probably the most accurate way to say "lich" is so that it sounds like "litch" and rhymes with "pitch." However, English is rarely so prescriptive as to rule out other customs . . .

Anaraxes 03-31-2012 11:26 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Dictionary.com includes sound files so you can hear pronunications.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lich?s=t

According to them, "lich" is derived from an Old English word "lic" (long "i") meaning "body" (the Middle English version spelled "liche", to relieve roguebfl). I can believe "lich" shares a root with the German "lich". "Lichen" is derived via Latin from a Greek word leikhen, "to lick".

beetle496 03-31-2012 11:26 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1344034)
We do appreciate people looking out for our interests, but please don't assume that we do no homework. We have staff whose job it is to do nothing but handle print-buying, sales, and marketing, and who are career professionals in the RPG industry, some who started as far back as the 1980s. Our sales model and pricing are based on hard analysis, not guesswork. I've sat through the long meetings with spreadsheets and laptops out, graphing trends and looking at margins. Basically, "Digital should cost a lot less, and get away from PDF ASAP" is a nice fan view, and may well apply to one-off fan productions, but reality shoots it down with extreme prejudice as an ongoing business model for a royalties-paying RPG publisher.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

sir_pudding 03-31-2012 05:18 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes (Post 1345571)
Dictionary.com includes sound files so you can hear pronunications.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lich?s=t

According to them, "lich" is derived from an Old English word "lic" (long "i") meaning "body" (the Middle English version spelled "liche", to relieve roguebfl). I can believe "lich" shares a root with the German "lich". "Lichen" is derived via Latin from a Greek word leikhen, "to lick".

Well, I've always been wrong. Thanks.

ClayDowling 03-31-2012 07:33 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Just to clarify, PDF is the only format that works -at all- for any book where graphics or layout are important to conveying the information. I've tried epub for woodworking books, and it's terrible. PDF books, on the other hand, are readable on my phone, on my computer, and if I want to print it, it still works.

TorgSmith 04-01-2012 08:06 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith (Post 1344885)
That's still nothing compared to, say, what Hero's "enhancement/limitation" system used to be (and still is?). Though they did provide the nice conversion table that usually did the math for you. I still don't see GURPS as being very math intensive outside of Vehicles and the various Spaceships rules (Space 3e, Spaceships 4e).

You guys have obviously not read “The Deadly Spring” in Pyramid 3-33 Low Tech. Now that is excessive or obsessive. I am not sure. :)

Steven Marsh 04-01-2012 08:26 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TorgSmith (Post 1346153)
You guys have obviously not read “The Deadly Spring” in Pyramid 3-33 Low Tech. Now that is excessive or obsessive. I am not sure. :)

Oh, sure. However -- even considering that Pyramid is the home of "cutting edge" GURPS material, which may or may not ultimately be folded into Fourth Edition proper -- I tried to make double-dog clear that "The Deadly Spring" was really, really optional. It's a fun system for those who want such a thing, but it doesn't have much to do with the core GURPS system. Folks who want such a thing generally know what they're getting into. :-)

SolemnGolem 04-02-2012 07:06 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog (Post 1344866)
Well, it does clear the way for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Adventure 2: Niche of the Lich, though, so you better get on that one right away.

When you send in the synopsis for SJG's appraisal, make sure you title it "Pitch: Niche of the Lich".

TorgSmith 04-02-2012 07:45 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SolemnGolem (Post 1346782)
When you send in the synopsis for SJG's appraisal, make sure you title it "Pitch: Niche of the Lich".

"Pitch: Niche of the Lich"

This is ok as long as it is not written by Mitch the Snitch.

ericbsmith 04-02-2012 08:04 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TorgSmith (Post 1346794)
"Pitch: Niche of the Lich"

This is ok as long as it is not written by Mitch the Snitch.

<twitch twitch>

Rocket Man 04-02-2012 10:05 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith (Post 1346800)
<twitch twitch>

Son of a ... gun.

DouglasCole 04-03-2012 07:29 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocket Man (Post 1344813)
"GURPS is/was math heavy," is one of those memes that strikes me as more myth than fact.

This, despite my best efforts to the contrary. :-)

DouglasCole 04-03-2012 07:33 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TorgSmith (Post 1346153)
You guys have obviously not read “The Deadly Spring” in Pyramid 3-33 Low Tech. Now that is excessive or obsessive. I am not sure. :)

Honestly, I think it was both.

It really started with three or four lines of very, very simple equations, that worked, were realistic, etc.

But if you wanted to get away from basic scaling of self-bows by ST, it started to break down. Then my sanity started to break down, and I graciously shared that SAN loss with Steven.

That being said, were it not for Pyramid's ability to bundle the included spreadsheet with the article, I suspect the project woudl have been wound down a bit.

He took a chance on what was basically darn near a physics paper (and the author of The Defense Academy Warbow Trials thought it "neat," which says something. About someone.) with a near-mandatory spreadsheet.

but it's DELIBERATELY out there, which he made abundantly clear. As he said.

sir_pudding 04-03-2012 07:36 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 1347460)
This, despite my best efforts to the contrary. :-)

Given that people would point to an optional rule in an the appendix of Vehicles 2e (which itself is a pretty niche book) and claim that their inability to take cube roots, even with a scientific calculator, makes GURPS unplayable, I think there's hope for A Deadly Spring also making people not play in your game. :)

TorgSmith 04-03-2012 08:16 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 1347461)
Honestly, I think it was both.

It really started with three or four lines of very, very simple equations, that worked, were realistic, etc.

But if you wanted to get away from basic scaling of self-bows by ST, it started to break down. Then my sanity started to break down, and I graciously shared that SAN loss with Steven.

That being said, were it not for Pyramid's ability to bundle the included spreadsheet with the article, I suspect the project woudl have been wound down a bit.

He took a chance on what was basically darn near a physics paper (and the author of The Defense Academy Warbow Trials thought it "neat," which says something. About someone.) with a near-mandatory spreadsheet.

but it's DELIBERATELY out there, which he made abundantly clear. As he said.

I totally missed the spreadsheet. I do not know how. 8O

That spreadsheet is really cool. I am not knowledgeable on Excel, can I just add new materials on the “Materials List Pounds” and “Arrow Tables” tabs? Will Excel auto adjust the calculations to include the new rows?

Edit: I inserted a row in the middle of the tables and needed to copy over a couple formulas from other cells but it worked.

I will need to add magical materials in now. XD

Peter Knutsen 04-04-2012 11:14 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1347463)
Given that people would point to an optional rule in an the appendix of Vehicles 2e (which itself is a pretty niche book) and claim that their inability to take cube roots, even with a scientific calculator, makes GURPS unplayable, I think there's hope for A Deadly Spring also making people not play in your game. :)

Can't you raise to the 1/3th power on a scientific calculator?

sir_pudding 04-05-2012 12:38 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen (Post 1348237)
Can't you raise to the 1/3th power on a scientific calculator?

I can, but I never claimed that double optional rule (which I don't think I ever actually used; at least not on any vehicle that actually saw play) makes GURPS unplayable.

Anaraxes 04-05-2012 12:53 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
People upset by cube roots are going to be even more freaked out by raising to fractional powers.

TorgSmith 04-05-2012 07:16 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
I suspect that many of the complaints about math in GURPS are the in game math. The wounding modifier of 1.5 for pi+ and cut needing to be calculated for each attack that penetrates and armor dividers greater that 2 that need to be done to see how much damages penetrates are probable some of the main issues. Ranged attacks require a table lookup for distance and speed of target then you need to add accuracy, bracing, and turns of aiming. This after needing to calculate how many turns you need to ready and aim.

These things do not bother me as I feel it adds to the combat at a tactical sense. The math during the character development is insignificant in my mind as that is out of game play. It helps that I use the Character Assistant and don’t need to do much work at all other than pick stuff. Now picking stuff is a real chore as there is so much to pick from. :)

ericbsmith 04-05-2012 11:07 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TorgSmith (Post 1348354)
I suspect that many of the complaints about math in GURPS are the in game math. The wounding modifier of 1.5 for pi+ and cut needing to be calculated for each attack that penetrates and armor dividers greater that 2 that need to be done to see how much damages penetrates are probable some of the main issues. Ranged attacks require a table lookup for distance and speed of target then you need to add accuracy, bracing, and turns of aiming. This after needing to calculate how many turns you need to ready and aim.

Maybe, but I have trouble believing most people consider table look-ups and multiplying by 1.5 to be hard math. Most of the complaints I've heard that start out about GURPS being too math heavy usually go out of their way to mention Vehicles at some point, which tells me that the person is literally looking for an excuse to dislike GURPS. Unfortunately, when a meme like that exists there will be people who have never opened a GURPS book that will happily believe it and/or repeat it.

sir_pudding 04-05-2012 06:42 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith (Post 1348483)
Most of the complaints I've heard that start out about GURPS being too math heavy usually go out of their way to mention Vehicles at some point, which tells me that the person is literally looking for an excuse to dislike GURPS.

And usually cube roots come up, so it's not just Vehicles, it's a double double optional rule in Vehicles. Haters got to hate, as they say.

TorgSmith 04-05-2012 07:37 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith (Post 1348483)
Maybe, but I have trouble believing most people consider table look-ups and multiplying by 1.5 to be hard math. Most of the complaints I've heard that start out about GURPS being too math heavy usually go out of their way to mention Vehicles at some point, which tells me that the person is literally looking for an excuse to dislike GURPS. Unfortunately, when a meme like that exists there will be people who have never opened a GURPS book that will happily believe it and/or repeat it.

The bolding of text above by me. I think hard math is not the issue. I think most the math done at game time is trivial. The math I pointed out above is simple. The problem (one I do not think needs solving) is some people hate any math beyond adding two numbers or subtracting two numbers.

I have checked out quite a few games and they all have tables and simple arithmetic. Numbers work best at defining limits. The main purpose of a character in any game is to define limits to what the player can do. All games have math in them. Well I have not checked out any of those diceless games. Personally, I do not have an issue with the math in the game.

I am practicing combats during lunch in my office with a couple guys at work. One guy is not in an engineering job so math is not used a lot. I am sure he has to work with numbers as his job uses computers. He has commented about the math. Now I think this is partially my fault as I want to get a good feel for the RAW and am spending time getting in all the modifiers. Once I get more used to them I will be able to group them quicker and better to reduce some of the math exposed to the players.

Basically I think the GM has a major impact on the perception of the game. I think the GM needs to know the comfort level of each player to math and plan accordingly.

sir_pudding 04-05-2012 08:03 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TorgSmith (Post 1348751)
The bolding of text above by me. I think hard math is not the issue. I think most the math done at game time is trivial. The math I pointed out above is simple. The problem (one I do not think needs solving) is some people hate any math beyond adding two numbers or subtracting two numbers.

I've heard "GURPS sucks cause you have to do cube roots to play it." I've never heard "GURPS sucks because you have to halve and double stuff to play it." You have to halve and double stuff in almost every popular RPG, you definitely have to do it in D&D.

Rocket Man 04-05-2012 10:44 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1348760)
I've heard "GURPS sucks cause you have to do cube roots to play it." I've never heard "GURPS sucks because you have to halve and double stuff to play it." You have to halve and double stuff in almost every popular RPG, you definitely have to do it in D&D.

Heck, it was original D&D that taught me how to calculate 10 percent of something, when I was in grade school.

johndallman 04-06-2012 05:06 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TorgSmith (Post 1348751)
I think hard math is not the issue. I think most the math done at game time is trivial. The math I pointed out above is simple. The problem (one I do not think needs solving) is some people hate any math beyond adding two numbers or subtracting two numbers.

The people I game with who aren't fond of GURPS have never been anywhere near Vehicles, but consider GURPS "Number-crunchy". There seem to be two aspects to this:

One is simple: you need to add up at least three numbers - the 3d6. For some, that's distinctly harder than two, and perceived pressure when everyone else is doing it instantly makes them react against the idea.

The other is that there's the wounding modifier step that comes into even the simplest demo combat, unless the GM deals with it silently, and people teaching GURPS tend not to do that. That's extra steps, which creates a fear that there will be more and more of them, with harder arithmetic, as you learn more of the game. That isn't true, but it's a natural expectation from parallels with other games.

sir_pudding 04-06-2012 05:22 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 1348971)
The people I game with who aren't fond of GURPS have never been anywhere near Vehicles, but consider GURPS "Number-crunchy". There seem to be two aspects to this:

One is simple: you need to add up at least three numbers - the 3d6. For some, that's distinctly harder than two, and perceived pressure when everyone else is doing it instantly makes them react against the idea.

But they're cool with the D6 per caster level of spells like Fireball? That's usually more than 3.

Quote:

The other is that there's the wounding modifier step that comes into even the simplest demo combat, unless the GM deals with it silently, and people teaching GURPS tend not to do that. That's extra steps, which creates a fear that there will be more and more of them, with harder arithmetic, as you learn more of the game. That isn't true, but it's a natural expectation from parallels with other games.
In D&D two handed weapon damage gets multiplied by 1.5. Damage when you save is often halved. Critical hits double or triple damage. That's not even getting into spell effects. D&D has just as much multiplication in play as GURPS, IMO.

johndallman 04-06-2012 08:18 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1348976)
But they're cool with the D6 per caster level of spells like Fireball? That's usually more than 3.

They're conspicuous for their lack of interest in playing magicians. I think this is largely because of their lack of interest in remembering spell lists, but lots of dice might be relevant too.
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In D&D two handed weapon damage gets multiplied by 1.5. Damage when you save is often halved. Critical hits double or triple damage. That's not even getting into spell effects. D&D has just as much multiplication in play as GURPS, IMO.
The people I'm thinking of have not moved up to modern versions of D&D, which I think they would also dislike. They're still largely on the AD&D 1e/Compendium/OD&D rules, which have less of that. It's just one sample, but it's one where I have some insight into things they don't like much about GURPS, and it has nothing to do with cube roots.

Peter Knutsen 04-06-2012 08:44 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes (Post 1348278)
People upset by cube roots are going to be even more freaked out by raising to fractional powers.

I'm not sure if you're joking, but just in case you aren't, raising to a fractional power is a trick to find a root, e.g. do x^(1/2) to find the square root, x^(1/7) to find the 7th root, and so forth.

I do that all the time on my scientific calculator, because I haven't quite bothered to learn how to do 3rd-and-higher roots. And I do it all the time in Excel (and Calc) too, because there I simply don't know at all how to do roots. So raising to a fractional power is easier.

Peter Knutsen 04-06-2012 08:53 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1348976)
But they're cool with the D6 per caster level of spells like Fireball? That's usually more than 3.


In D&D two handed weapon damage gets multiplied by 1.5. Damage when you save is often halved. Critical hits double or triple damage. That's not even getting into spell effects. D&D has just as much multiplication in play as GURPS, IMO.

Fireballs are rarely used. In D&D4 I think it's a once-per-day or at the most once-per-encounter ability. It's non-routine.

Also, IIRC it's only the STR damage bonus that gets multipied by 1.5, not the total damage, and usually the STR damage bonus is between +3 and +8. And you most often know in advance of combat that your character is wielding a two-handed weapon so you can pre-calculate the result.

Halving and doubling is quick to do, but I would not design a game where one routinely has to multiply by 1.5 during play.

There is something a bit like that in Sagatafl (having to do with how primitv weapons penetrate armour), where you sometimes have to multiply very small integer values by by 1.5 or 2.5 (or very rarely 3.5) but it's not too often, and I plan on putting a lookup table directly on the character sheet, for those multiplications, to speed up play.

I'm a speed optimization freak, though. Most likely veteran GURPS players quickly learn personal methods for doing the x1.5 thing. If I had to, I'd probably just eideticize the results. I'm confident I could do that any damage result that's likely to be produced by a TL3 weapon, if needed..

sir_pudding 04-06-2012 12:44 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen (Post 1349021)
Fireballs are rarely used. In D&D4 I think it's a once-per-day or at the most once-per-encounter ability. It's non-routine.

You must play differently than I do. We throw around a lot of spells with damage per caster level (and get attacked by things with these spells or natural buckets'o'dice attacks).

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Halving and doubling is quick to do, but I would not design a game where one routinely has to multiply by 1.5 during play.
Multiplying by 1.5 isn't any harder than halving and adding. In fact it is halving and adding. Call it half-again damage if decimals scare you.

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There is something a bit like that in Sagatafl (having to do with how primitv weapons penetrate armour), where you sometimes have to multiply very small integer values by by 1.5 or 2.5 (or very rarely 3.5) but it's not too often, and I plan on putting a lookup table directly on the character sheet, for those multiplications, to speed up play.
From what you've said about your homebrews, I think that you are a lot more in obsessive calculatory detail-land than GURPS ever could be. You have a leg length stat!

robkelk 04-06-2012 02:52 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 1349010)
The people I'm thinking of have not moved up to modern versions of D&D, which I think they would also dislike. They're still largely on the AD&D 1e/Compendium/OD&D rules, which have less of that. It's just one sample, but it's one where I have some insight into things they don't like much about GURPS, and it has nothing to do with cube roots.

What do those people think of the THACO rules? I recall there's just as much math there as there is in figuring out pi+ damage in GURPS 4e...

sir_pudding 04-06-2012 02:55 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robkelk (Post 1349219)
What do those people think of the THACO rules? I recall there's just as much math there as there is in figuring out pi+ damage in GURPS 4e...

Yeah, I remember doing a lot of math in general in D&D back in the day.

johndallman 04-06-2012 05:46 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robkelk (Post 1349219)
What do those people think of the THACO rules? I recall there's just as much math there as there is in figuring out pi+ damage in GURPS 4e...

They roll, add their bonuses (they can have those pre-added-up), and say, for example, "Total of 15 as a 5th level cleric." The referee then tells them if they've hit. They are perfectly capable of going "I rolled higher than last round, against the same opponent, so I'll have hit."

sjard 04-06-2012 05:58 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 1349298)
They roll, add their bonuses (they can have those pre-added-up), and say, for example, "Total of 15 as a 5th level cleric." The referee then tells them if they've hit. They are perfectly capable of going "I rolled higher than last round, against the same opponent, so I'll have hit."

That's not my experience. My experience is that as the initiative numbers are called out, the player who's character is going rolls, and says "I rolled x, and my THAC0 is y, good enough to hit AC z or less."

But then again, the GMs I'm familiar with only helped out with the math for new players. That is anyone who has played less than three sessions total in their entire gaming career.

Admittedly, most of us had charts for THAC0 all worked out on the character sheet in advance.


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