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I have to say this though: PDF is a lousy choice for an electronic format! It is great for printing, but lousy for use on-screen (tablet or otherwise). Multiple columns on screen? Vertical and horizontal scrolling? Arbitrary (context insensitive) "page" breaks on something that only ever lives electronically? Static table of contents -- and where is the other hyperlinked text? (The PDF format supports structured text and hyperlinks of course, but SJG does not seem to bother with that.) It's not only that so much of your stuff is PDF only, but that you do only a mediocre job with the PDFs! Also, SJG charges too much for PDFs. I have to pay for the ink and paper, and it is never as good as something professionally printed. I bet if you were to cut the PDF prices in half you would sell four times as many! What has SJG done to ensure that you have picked a close to optimal point on the price-demand curve? I have no complaints about what you charge for hard copy. Your PDF pricing seems to be picked only not to compete with the bound version. But then you don't keep things in print! I am a long time loyal customer. I have purchased dozens, maybe even a hundred, SJG products (especially if I can count Microgames in that tally), who has cut way, way back on his SJG purchase in the last several years because I cannot find hard copy stuff like I used to be able to. Sure, my local game shop will special order for me, but I don't buy unless I can browse first! Here's my two requests: (1) Embrace truly digital native publishing: ePub or iBook. I would pay the prices you are asking on e23 prices for electronic formats that were actually robust. and/or (2) Hook up with a print-on-demand publisher: I would pay your e23 prices for hardcopy mailed to me. I will not pay what you are asking for PDFs. |
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From previous comments on this forum, and the fact that there was a (small) price increase at e23 a couple of years ago, I suspect the price of the PDFs reflects the cost of creating and distributing * them compared to the number of sales they generate.
As for ePub or iBook, as far as I know neither of those works on my PalmPilot. PDF does. You have a good point about lack of inline markup. Bookmarks aren't the same... * Yes, there is a distribution cost. T3 connections to the Internet aren't cheap, nor is enterprise-level storage. |
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Also what happens to the layout of the books when you do this? If you get rid of the columns what happens to the page references? What happens to the box text? Quote:
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My top of the head prediction: Not before 2025... I'm not sure we'd have gotten 4th yet if not for the D20 over reaction by the game ndustry, and most of that was "We have to sell hardback books!"
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And, even five years later, there is still no need for a 5th edition any time soon. |
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I can read GURPS PDFs on my HTC Hero, a phone several years old. I can also read them on my computer or print them out and am pretty content that no other format will work as well on all 3 mediums. |
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What is this Need some people have for the newest thing when the older thing it's intended to replace still works? |
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Resurrected topic or not, everything that was said earlier remains pertinent:
SJ Games has neither the staff nor the money to produce several versions of each RPG product, one optimized for each of digital, POD, and traditional print publication. Thus, the company produces everything just once in a format that all of these media can accommodate moderately well: PDF. All recent digital devices can display PDF and all present-day printing technology can work from PDF. Nobody at SJ Games would disagree that hyperlinked electronic formats that flow to accommodate the individual reader would be wonderful, but these would be troublesome at best for printing, and we simply don't sell enough copies to justify parallel production threads. As the production process is identical for all media right up to the print-and-ship phase, the price tag in each case is largely the same. Paper, ink, and shipping aren't cheap at all, but they aren't half the price tag of a physical book, either. The company has to maintain its premises, cover its business expenses, and pay its staff and freelancers. Most of the price of any RPG supplement pays for the writing, editing, layout, art, indexing, and proofing of the thing, along with overhead (accounting, marketing, office space, computers, etc.). The premise that digital formats are quick and easy, and thus nigh unto free, only holds true when the content and production are of very low quality. Professional values cost money. This does mean that those who choose to print their PDFs may end up paying more than if they had bought print books, as they pay the same amount for the "intangibles" as if they had bought printed books, and then don't reap the volume discount on printing that a publisher enjoys. However, the choice to print PDF is exactly that: a choice. Going purely digital is always an option, and one we support by giving our customers free accounts with persistent PDF libraries that they can download to whatever device they happen to be using. For instance, I read my GURPS supplements on a desktop PC, laptop PC, tablet, and phone, and I've done so on three continents. If I were a paying customer rather than staff, I would be paying just once for this privilege. |
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And compared to some publishers who shall remain nameless (but they're ones who don't pay for numerous interior illustrations or fancy layout with boxed text, tables, etc., let alone indexes), SJ Games' PDF discount is extremely reasonable. I look at the pricing difference for electronic vs. dead trees the way I do because of the comparatively low prices of SJ Games PDFs.
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There are a couple of long threads floating around the forums on this. iPad of any stripe can handle the GURPS PDFs and the 'new' iPad is fantastic for this purpose. I've just counted and I have 120 GURPS PDFs on my device - increadible really. We live in the future.
I will say that the two-column format is easier to read (IMO) than the three-column format, but other than that the solution is pretty much perfect. Good PDF readers and bookmarked PDFs (which SJG do) mean you can navigate pretty easily and word searching is brilliant. As to price - professional results cost money, and we are really operating on Steve Jackson's good will and the coat tails of Munchkin here, so overall I think the prices are very reasonable. |
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I appreciate the comment about PDFs being a bad format, just not as bad as other choices, but I do not believe that is true anymore. ePub 3, in addition to having all sorts of great features for something which is consumed on-screen, also can render to print just as well as PDF. It is not like the issues with PDFs have not been known for a decade, and it is not just net cranks complaining: PDF: Unfit for Human Consumption Avoid PDF for On-Screen Reading I really do understand the labor issue too. Also, part of my motivation for buying so many books in the beginning was that I was trying to keep Steve from going out of business (again)! I still buy source books that I never expect to use, but my largess does not extend to PDFs! I buy much less now, even with more disposable income, because I cannot find GURPS manuals on the shelves. Obviously, you think you have it worked out, and your current business model lets you scratch by. Maybe the kids really are buying more stuff than the grognards, but I am skeptical. What have you done to convince yourselves that the price point is right? How do you not know that cutting the PDF price in half wouldn’t result in four times the amount of sales? Your price for print publications is fair, and there really is no way for you to reduce that. Also, you have set PDF pricing based on a reasonable discount from the print version, a discount that is more aggressive than many print-oriented publishers. I submit that it is not enough. The iTunes App store created millionaires in no small part because it turns out that software developers, in trying to break even, were setting the MSRP too high and strangling themselves. Apple is poised to revolutionize electronic publishing, just the same way they did for music and software. Is SJGames going to get a piece of that gravy train? |
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You cannot compare pen-and-paper RPGs to mainstream books, music, and apps because the hobby is a shrinking niche within a shrinking niche for cultural and social reasons – even if we gave the stuff away, fewer people would take free copies than formerly bought expensive copies. The hobby had its heyday in the 1970s and 1980s, and is now a boutique market. The thing with boutique markets is that generally, they work by selling high-priced special-interest goods to people who genuinely want them. It takes some kind of sweeping social phenomenon, not marketing intent, to convert a boutique market into a mainstream one. We do appreciate people looking out for our interests, but please don't assume that we do no homework. We have staff whose job it is to do nothing but handle print-buying, sales, and marketing, and who are career professionals in the RPG industry, some who started as far back as the 1980s. Our sales model and pricing are based on hard analysis, not guesswork. I've sat through the long meetings with spreadsheets and laptops out, graphing trends and looking at margins. Basically, "Digital should cost a lot less, and get away from PDF ASAP" is a nice fan view, and may well apply to one-off fan productions, but reality shoots it down with extreme prejudice as an ongoing business model for a royalties-paying RPG publisher. |
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The handy thing is that if we format it as an electronic book, the formatting is virtually already done. |
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This is a general question, not one directed towards SJGames.
As long as e-books have been out there, aren't there programs that will convert your files to the e-readers preferred file format? |
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You can also download the files to your computer, open iTunes, plug in your iPad, open the iPad panel, open the Apps panel, scroll down, click the GoodReader icon at the bottom, and then do "Open" and add all those PDFs in one swell foop. (I do this with Stanza and epub files, mostly, but I am 90% sure that it works just the same with GoodReader.) Considering how great my retina iPhone looks, I can imagine that a retina iPad would be really sweet. ...but my sturdy iPad 1 is still going strong! I must remain steadfast and loyal! |
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As for the price point, most new supplements are under $10 I really dont think that is a bad price point. Nor do I think its expensive enough that volume would significantly increase, much less enough to offset the costs for a higher profit ratio for all involved. As to the software thing, really Apple? They are infamous for being a failure in that regard. Too much hassle to get most developers to be happy working with them, which is why Android has passed them by for phones and working on tablets. And another issue is the sheer volume difference. If you build software you have to cover your SDK, equipment, licensing and training time as intangible costs plus the time to write it and then sell and promote it. This results in very expensive software if you do it each custom but you can sell many copies then you can spread some of that cost around for a lower selling price. Same with publishing. But you have to figure out the volume and if the volume drops too low then you cant make money without charging more. Unfortunately you have a lot of people who somehow think electronic means cheap or free becasue they do not understand all the costs involved. |
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Oh and even if the publisher considers that risk worth taking and puts all the eggs into a product that will only work on Apple producets, Apple still resved the right to deny you access the iBooks store on any grounds they wish, like like Itunes and Apps store, so all you development can be down the drain before the customer ever get to see your product. Oh here the other thing the differences Itunes worked because broke the barrier need to buy online songs... Book publishers haven't created such a tight noose as the RIAA had for online sales for iBooks to have the demaned to push iPad back on top and mae publishers /need/ to get on the ban wagon. If you want a publisher to watch to see whee the referring book market jumper with electronic publishing watch O'Reilly Books. a major References book publisher with close ties computer industry and an owner dedicated to invitation. http://shop.oreilly.com/category/cus...vice/ebooks.do |
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Calibre will serve most of your needs on the laptop/desktop side... and will convert many formats into other formats for your favorite devices. As for iOS and Android, lots of choices. Your service provider may have locked out some in the Android Market, tho. http://www.goomedic.com/20-epub-read...d-mac-osx.html The one problem with ePub is tables. A workaround is (much like web BBS forums) to use monospaced fonts and careful use of underscores to pad out data. Quote:
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Also, GURPS had books which could be viewed in black and white and organized into numbered paragraphs for easy reflowing and navigation (although it didn't chose to number them that way). It gave them up when it went over to 4e, because their marketing research said that pretty books on good paper would do better than plain books on rough paper. They also moved away from rules that require anything more advanced than a few arithmetic operations to calculate, so I think references like "see Low Tech §99-113" would scare away more readers even if they made it easier to read GURPS on a Kindle.
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Case numbering is simply ugly. We have polled people about it before . . . there's always a significant grognard vote in favor of it, and always a much larger "Holy hell, no!" vote against it. Most people don't want RPGs to read like the General Income Tax and Benefit Guide 2011 (I mean, once you read to p. 12 or so). Thus, for now, the desire to be able to exploit POD if the costs become favorable means that we'll be sticking with absolute page numbers. And that plus our desire for tables to be pretty, typeset things without ugly monospaced fonts and underscores means that we'll be sticking with PDF for the foreseeable future.
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So I can't say that I see Apple as a shining beacon of good business sense, and I do not push to follow in their tracks. The online retailer I admire most is Valve's Steam Store. Whenever SJ Games asks me for my input or vote, it's in the direction of being more Steam-like, not more iTunes-like. Quote:
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Do those programs do so well, maintaining even such trivial-to-convert things as boldface, italic, and section breaks? In my experience, no. I actually bought a Kindle primarily to avoid the hassle of converting legally-purchased Kindle-exclusive content over to something I could put on my Kobo; the cash outlay for the device outweighed the hassle of conversion for me. And I manage a big website for a living... |
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"GURPS is/was math heavy," is one of those memes that strikes me as more myth than fact. |
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Niche I've always head and sound like knee-sh where Lich sounded more like a female dog. neither sounding like 'like' both using soft 'c' that is close to 's' not hard 'c' that similar to 'k' |
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If we're being pedantic, probably the most accurate way to say "lich" is so that it sounds like "litch" and rhymes with "pitch." However, English is rarely so prescriptive as to rule out other customs . . .
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Dictionary.com includes sound files so you can hear pronunications.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lich?s=t According to them, "lich" is derived from an Old English word "lic" (long "i") meaning "body" (the Middle English version spelled "liche", to relieve roguebfl). I can believe "lich" shares a root with the German "lich". "Lichen" is derived via Latin from a Greek word leikhen, "to lick". |
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Just to clarify, PDF is the only format that works -at all- for any book where graphics or layout are important to conveying the information. I've tried epub for woodworking books, and it's terrible. PDF books, on the other hand, are readable on my phone, on my computer, and if I want to print it, it still works.
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This is ok as long as it is not written by Mitch the Snitch. |
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It really started with three or four lines of very, very simple equations, that worked, were realistic, etc. But if you wanted to get away from basic scaling of self-bows by ST, it started to break down. Then my sanity started to break down, and I graciously shared that SAN loss with Steven. That being said, were it not for Pyramid's ability to bundle the included spreadsheet with the article, I suspect the project woudl have been wound down a bit. He took a chance on what was basically darn near a physics paper (and the author of The Defense Academy Warbow Trials thought it "neat," which says something. About someone.) with a near-mandatory spreadsheet. but it's DELIBERATELY out there, which he made abundantly clear. As he said. |
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That spreadsheet is really cool. I am not knowledgeable on Excel, can I just add new materials on the “Materials List Pounds” and “Arrow Tables” tabs? Will Excel auto adjust the calculations to include the new rows? Edit: I inserted a row in the middle of the tables and needed to copy over a couple formulas from other cells but it worked. I will need to add magical materials in now. XD |
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People upset by cube roots are going to be even more freaked out by raising to fractional powers.
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I suspect that many of the complaints about math in GURPS are the in game math. The wounding modifier of 1.5 for pi+ and cut needing to be calculated for each attack that penetrates and armor dividers greater that 2 that need to be done to see how much damages penetrates are probable some of the main issues. Ranged attacks require a table lookup for distance and speed of target then you need to add accuracy, bracing, and turns of aiming. This after needing to calculate how many turns you need to ready and aim.
These things do not bother me as I feel it adds to the combat at a tactical sense. The math during the character development is insignificant in my mind as that is out of game play. It helps that I use the Character Assistant and don’t need to do much work at all other than pick stuff. Now picking stuff is a real chore as there is so much to pick from. :) |
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I have checked out quite a few games and they all have tables and simple arithmetic. Numbers work best at defining limits. The main purpose of a character in any game is to define limits to what the player can do. All games have math in them. Well I have not checked out any of those diceless games. Personally, I do not have an issue with the math in the game. I am practicing combats during lunch in my office with a couple guys at work. One guy is not in an engineering job so math is not used a lot. I am sure he has to work with numbers as his job uses computers. He has commented about the math. Now I think this is partially my fault as I want to get a good feel for the RAW and am spending time getting in all the modifiers. Once I get more used to them I will be able to group them quicker and better to reduce some of the math exposed to the players. Basically I think the GM has a major impact on the perception of the game. I think the GM needs to know the comfort level of each player to math and plan accordingly. |
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One is simple: you need to add up at least three numbers - the 3d6. For some, that's distinctly harder than two, and perceived pressure when everyone else is doing it instantly makes them react against the idea. The other is that there's the wounding modifier step that comes into even the simplest demo combat, unless the GM deals with it silently, and people teaching GURPS tend not to do that. That's extra steps, which creates a fear that there will be more and more of them, with harder arithmetic, as you learn more of the game. That isn't true, but it's a natural expectation from parallels with other games. |
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I do that all the time on my scientific calculator, because I haven't quite bothered to learn how to do 3rd-and-higher roots. And I do it all the time in Excel (and Calc) too, because there I simply don't know at all how to do roots. So raising to a fractional power is easier. |
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Also, IIRC it's only the STR damage bonus that gets multipied by 1.5, not the total damage, and usually the STR damage bonus is between +3 and +8. And you most often know in advance of combat that your character is wielding a two-handed weapon so you can pre-calculate the result. Halving and doubling is quick to do, but I would not design a game where one routinely has to multiply by 1.5 during play. There is something a bit like that in Sagatafl (having to do with how primitv weapons penetrate armour), where you sometimes have to multiply very small integer values by by 1.5 or 2.5 (or very rarely 3.5) but it's not too often, and I plan on putting a lookup table directly on the character sheet, for those multiplications, to speed up play. I'm a speed optimization freak, though. Most likely veteran GURPS players quickly learn personal methods for doing the x1.5 thing. If I had to, I'd probably just eideticize the results. I'm confident I could do that any damage result that's likely to be produced by a TL3 weapon, if needed.. |
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But then again, the GMs I'm familiar with only helped out with the math for new players. That is anyone who has played less than three sessions total in their entire gaming career. Admittedly, most of us had charts for THAC0 all worked out on the character sheet in advance. |
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