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-   -   Is a 5th Edition coming soon? [Answer: NO, it isn't!] (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=29575)

Palmer 04-07-2012 04:43 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith (Post 1348483)
Maybe, but I have trouble believing most people consider table look-ups and multiplying by 1.5 to be hard math.

This may be self-selection bias in your friends and associates.
In my day job, I have to deal with the general public, and math on a daily basis (I work at a bank).
Easily 10% of people I deal with have trouble with simple addition and subtraction.
Well over 50% of them have math skills at a level where multiplying by 1.5 would require a calculator for numbers over 5.

You also have the issue that even if they have the skills, multiplying mentally is fundamentally SLOW. It's a fact that for mental calculations, addition is the fastest, while subtraction is noticeably slower, and multiplication and division as VERY slow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1349110)
You must play differently than I do. We throw around a lot of spells with damage per caster level (and get attacked by things with these spells or natural buckets'o'dice attacks).

He specified 4th Edition D&D, which you are obviously not playing.
In 4E, Fireball is a Daily power (so you only get 1 per day, even if you're a Level 30 wizard), and damage is fixed at 5d6+Int Bonus (regardless of level).
4E did away with level based damage entirely. Higher level abilities have more dice of damage, but it's not a straight 1d6 per level progression. Around level 30, they cap out at about 7 or 8 dice, plus stat and magic item bonuses. Rogues can exceed 10 dice with sneak attack, but even that is capped at 5 extra dice.

This has the much needed effect of eliminating the Quadratic Wizard problem, wherein a single Level 20 wizard can easily match or exceed the damage output of a dozen Level 20 fighters.

Peter Knutsen 04-07-2012 06:04 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1349110)
From what you've said about your homebrews, I think that you are a lot more in obsessive calculatory detail-land than GURPS ever could be. You have a leg length stat!

GURPS has Move for 5 CP per level, but we don't know why the character can move faster/longer. That's what Leg Length does in Sagatafl. Besides, it's a specific kind of stat: a sub-Attribute.

robkelk 04-07-2012 09:41 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen (Post 1349529)
GURPS has Move for 5 CP per level, but we don't know why the character can move faster/longer.

That's because description is a special effect in GURPS. It doesn't matter whether somebody's got long legs or built-in rollerblades or a gait that doesn't bend the knees; they all give the same game-effect Move +1, and that's all that matters.

Lord Carnifex 04-07-2012 09:57 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Palmer (Post 1349514)
This may be self-selection bias in your friends and associates.
In my day job, I have to deal with the general public, and math on a daily basis (I work at a bank).
Easily 10% of people I deal with have trouble with simple addition and subtraction.

There's also an in-between group: people like me. I have issues with arithmetic (always have) and so usually have to do simple math on paper, sometimes to the amusement of bank tellers and such. But math, even algebra and higher, doesn't intimidate me. I tend to rely on computational assistance and get by fine.

I'll keep playing GURPS up until it starts regularly employing transfinite and surreal numbers. But I refuse to attempt to roll ωd6. Or even 6dω.

Anaraxes 04-07-2012 10:41 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robkelk (Post 1349581)
Quote:

Leg Length
That's because description is a special effect in GURPS. It doesn't matter whether somebody's got long legs or built-in rollerblades or a gait that doesn't bend the knees; they all give the same game-effect Move +1, and that's all that matters.

Conversely, having longer legs doesn't necessarily mean you move faster. Giraffes have longer legs than cheetahs. Even within a species, counting only leg length makes the huge assumption every other factor is identical. Usain Bolt has shorter legs than Manute Bol.

TorgSmith 04-07-2012 10:52 AM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Palmer (Post 1349514)
You also have the issue that even if they have the skills, multiplying mentally is fundamentally SLOW. It's a fact that for mental calculations, addition is the fastest, while subtraction is noticeably slower, and multiplication and division as VERY slow.

I think this is the problem, these people may feel pressured or intimidated to get the correct value quickly and not to hold up the game. I think people can overcome this with practice. The problem is getting them to try. I believe the GM needs to keep the pressure down. I find this tough as I want to get through the combat before lunch ends so try to step it up some. I am trying to avoid this temptation.

Kromm 04-07-2012 01:09 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Well, to sort of stay on topic . . .

There are people out there with crummy math skills, for whom addition is faster than subtraction, both are faster than multiplication, division is nearly hopeless, powers are hopeless, and transcendental functions (trig functions, logarithms, etc.) are "stuff geeks did that I didn't understand." This makes anything that relies on fractions or percentages difficult, texts containing mathematical expressions frightening, and even table look-ups kind of scary. Probabilities are best left vague, not played upon explicitly. Then there are the people who have a PhD in mathematics or a physical science, who would consider all of the above trivial.

Thus, audience selection is always an issue when deciding how much math to design into an RPG. For GURPS, we were already aiming fairly high with the concept: a single, unified tool kit for emulating specific genres and fictional tropes, for telling stories in worlds that exist only in the mind, while keeping a synthetic persona separate from your natural one. Thus, we aimed the math at the same general level of mental horsepower. That means we took "can do basic mental arithmetic (+, -, ×, and ÷) intuitively, without much regard for the specific operation" as given, and didn't dwell on it, and included things immediately upscale from that (%, √, etc.) without comment.

If GURPS were a single-genre, intro-to-roleplaying kind of game aimed at total newbies to the hobby, we would have to lower the conceptual difficulty, and at that point we would probably lower the mathematical difficulty to match. It's a valid criticism that the two don't have to track one another, but we reject it. A game written to appeal to advanced roleplayers with bad math skills, or to people with excellent math skills but no grasp of role or story, would end up insulting half its potential audience by writing down to them. A game that maintains a consistent high level shows respect for their ability to learn and adapt.

Flyndaran 04-07-2012 01:16 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Are learning disabilities really that common though?
Not every game is playable by everyone, and that's not a bad thing.

roguebfl 04-07-2012 01:25 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1349670)
Are learning disabilities really that common though?
Not every game is playable by everyone, and that's not a bad thing.

Nothing Kromm mentioned is in the realms of learning disablilty level. Anymore than not being of an artist temetment is a learning disability. Most people can draw, and can make reasonable copies, but there a step up in compataces to take those skills as simple as you form letters in hand writing and make new images.

Flyndaran 04-07-2012 01:36 PM

Re: Is a 5th Edition coming soon?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roguebfl (Post 1349675)
Nothing Kromm mentioned is in the realms of learning disablilty level. Anymore than not being of an artist temetment is a learning disability. Most people can draw, and can make reasonable copies, but there a step up in compataces to take those skills as simple as you form letters in hand writing and make new images.

Having trouble with basic cyphering is a learning disability. Being unable to understand even after schooling, is a learning disability.
There's nothing disgraceful about it. But I won't call the disabled differently abled. My severe anxiety makes me mentally ill. It is what it is.


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