[G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

I'm posting this question from work without my books, so I might get the specifics wrong, but the Survival skill seems to indicate to me that only one roll is needed per day to, well, survive. However, the foraging rules seem to indicate to me that one survival roll equals one meal (there are more specifics for hunting, fishing, etc., but it's moot to my question).

The only other way I think I could interpret the rules for the daily Survival skill rolls are that they don't provide meals, only safety.

Remember I don't have my books, I'm just wondering if you have to roll Survival once per day for all meals, or once per day for safety and then also at least three times per day for meals.

Thanks! :)

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

I'd personally say "Once per day for safety only, no food. Further rolls to forrage for food." You don't necessarily have to roll three times a day for food, but obviously if you only roll once, you're likely to only find one meal, and only if you get successful.

Most people who try for wilderness survival do their best to bring food with them, but food doesn't save you from stepping in a snake hole and breaking your ankle, having deadwood fall on you, slipping on a rock, stepping in poison ivy, etc etc.

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

The Foraging rules (B427) are mainly concerned with supplementing your rations while traveling or making a temporary camp. My recommendation is to treat them as optional, using them only when you wish to include more detail in long overland trips by the party. A single Survival roll is sufficient in actual survival situations, though you could use the foraging rules in those cases too, if you were so inclined.

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

My Star Fleet officers just spent a few hellish weeks on a miserable jungle planet. I thought long and hard about just this application of Survival skill. This is what I came up with. Every day they would make a Survival roll, if they were successful, then they managed to forage one meal's worth of food while they hiked. Since they needed at least three meals a day to avoid fatigue loss problems, they would generally also stop hiking specifically to forage for additional meals. To that end, one hour and a successful Survival roll would result in one meal.

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

As GM, I have handled it like this.

You know how with the rapid fire rules, you look at the margin of success of a dice roll, and compare it to the recoil number to figure out how many rounds hit? So for example your skill is 15, you roll 8, so your margin of success is 7. If the recoil number was 1, you hit 8 times - once for the 0, and once for each 1 of success. If the recoil number is 2, you hit 4 times - once for the 0, and once for each 2 of success. And so on.

Well, I do the same thing for Survival skill and foraging, except that instead of "hits" there are "meals and water" and instead of "recoil" there is "harshness of terrain." So for example a forest in a temperate region on virgin land never before visited by humans has a "harshness" of 0. But a sandy desert has a "harshness" of 10.

The time taken is two hours. This can be a two hour block, or it can simply be two hours taken out of eight as the PC hikes along, and they lose 25% of their speed as they do so; they lose just as many FP as if they were hiking the whole time, since being constantly alert for things is tiring. So the player gets to decide how to weigh things up, which is more important, to find food and water or to get moving across terrain. If they decide it's more important to find sustenance, then they stay in one place and do 4x 2hr searches. If they think it's more important to get moving (perhaps out of that Harshness 10 terrain), then they go at 3/4 pace and forage as they go.

If you don't want to make those calculations, then you can just look at their margin of success of skill, one roll per day. Just succeeding lets them have one of,

• Shelter
• Water
• Food
• A comfortable walk across the terrain (remember that's a function of Survival skill, too - not walking into huge thistle bushes, etc

You would then rate the terrain as easy, difficult, or dreadful. Easy means each 1 margin of success gives them an extra one of those four; difficult means each 2 does so; and dreadful means each 4.

The more dice rolls they have to make, the slower the game session and the more likely they are to have some crippling failure. If you really want them to fail, don't let them have high skill levels and then make them roll a zillion times, just make them have lower skill levels, give them less XP, and roll once.

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

Now that's elegant. Consider it stolen :)

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

Definately worth as a houserule!

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

dumb question, so if they fail the non-food survival roll, what happens to them? Broken ankle, fatigue from lack of sleep or shelter, ?

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

Or one of the many other things that people bumbling around in the woods do to themselves - you could just have a terrible day filled with all the minor miseries of life in the wilderness - start off by stumbling and skinning your knees, blunder into a thorn bush later on and get scratched up, get bitten by a snake or squirrel or something when you step on it by accident, have a bad encounter with a porcupine, and finally try to clean up after going to the bathroom with poison ivy leaves or some other plant that attacks by contact.

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

I found an old gurps doc about Gurps Survival that worked similary in the way that the result depended on the MarginOfSuccess/Failure listed for each environment.

I did a quick search and found it. Kudos to who ever wrote it!

Here it is :
-------------------------------------------------------------

Survival Skill Roll Results
Roll once per day while in the appropriate environment. Typically, results will also include all lower results, i.e. making the roll by 5 also includes all the positive results below 5. Similarly, failing by 5 also encompasses all the negative results below 5. The GM is free to modify the descriptions as needed, or modify the results based on role-playing.
Additionally, in all environments:
Lose 2 HT each day for not drinking.
Lose 3 HT each day after 4 days of not eating.

Beach and Island Survival
Survival roll made by:
-4: The bounty of the sea provides you with edible food
+0: You are able to hunt or fish for food
+1: You are able to find fresh water
+2: You are able to find firewood

Desert Survival
Survival roll made by:
-8: Fall into a cactus patch for 1d-4 damage (armor protects)
-7: You are fooled by a Mirage and lose ½ day in travel (unless traveling by night).
-6: A scorpion crawls into bed with you at night to keep warm (unless traveling by night).
-4: You lose 1 HT from hypothermia at night.
-2: You lose 2 HT from sunstroke (unless traveling by night).
-1: You lose 3 Fatigue and 3 HT from dehydration (unless traveling by night).
+0: You are able to accurately judge long distances visually.
+1: You are able to tap cacti for water.
+2: You are able to find firewood +4: You are able to find food and water Critical failure: A Sandstorm hits. It initially appears as brownish haze on the horizon. Roll vs. Survival (Desert) or Meteorology skill to recognize an approaching sandstorm in time to set up shelter. Roll vs. Animal Handling, Packing, Teamster or Riding skill to get animals securely and safely tied down in place before storm hits. Roll vs. Survival (Desert) skill (at -2 if the you have no tent), or take 1 point of damage from blowing sand. After a sandstorm, sand and dust get into everything, delicate equipment might be damaged.

Forest Survival
Survival roll made by:
-6: You are able to find firewood
-5: You set up near an insect nest. Lose ½ nights sleep (3 fatigue)
+0: You are able to find food and water
Critical failure: A wild animal attacks you. Bear, wildcat, skunk etc.

Jungle Survival
Survival roll made by:
-9: A wild animal attacks you. Snake, scorpion, jaguar, crocodile etc.
-8: You lose 1 HT from hypothermia.
-7: You are scratched by thorn bushes for 1d-4 damage (armor protects)
-6: You stumble around at night in the pitch dark. Take 1d-2 damage.
-5: Insects swarm you at night. –1 HT
-4: You lose 1 HT from heat exhaustion.
-3: Your wounds become infected (if you have any).
-2: You are able to find food in the bountiful jungle
-1: Traveling is exhausting. Lose ½ Fatigue.
+0: You are able to find a clearing in order to navigate by the stars.
+1: You are able to find a trail useable for vehicle travel.
+2: You are able to find clean water
+3: You are able to make a fire with the damp wood.
Critical failure: You become ill

Mountain Survival
Survival roll made by:
-7: You lose 3 HT from frostbite.
-5: You lose 1 HT from hypothermia.
-1: Traveling is exhausting. Lose ½ Fatigue.
+0: You are able to find food and water

Mountain Climbing
Climbing roll made by:
-7: You fall into an ice cave filled with freezing water. Roll for Drowning and Immersion Shock
-6: You fall into a crevasse. Take 2d damage.
-4: You slide a long ways down the slope. Take 1d-1 damage
-2: You slide a ways down the slope. Take 1d-3 damage
-1: You slide a short ways down the slope. Take 1d-5 damage
+0: You are able to climb the glacier with proper equipment
+2: You are able to climb the glacier without proper equipment Critical failure: Avalanche or Landslide. Roll DX-1 to dive out of the way, or take 2d crushing and be pinned (1d-3 cold damage each minute).

Ocean Survival
Survival roll made by:
-6: You lose 2 HT from sunstroke
-5: You lose 1 HT from hypothermia at night.
-3: You lose 1 HT from seasickness.
-1: You lose 1 HT from sunburn
+0: You are noticeable by passing ships
+1: You are able to lure birds for food. Roll DX or weapon skill to bag them.
+2: You are able to get food by fishing
Critical failure: Shark attack. Roll vs. Survival (Ocean), Zoology (Ichthyology), or Naturalist skill to notice the sharks and scare them away before they can attack. Otherwise, take 1d+1 Cutting damage to a random part of your body (roll again for hits to the head).

Plains Survival
Survival roll made by:
-4: You lose 1 HT from heat exhaustion.
-1: You are able to accurately judge long distances visually.
+0: You are able to find firewood +1: You are able to obtain drinkable water +2: You are able to make a sod shelter for sleeping
Critical failure: Stampede. A large herd horse, cattle, antelope, buffalo etc. is stampeding (perhaps due to a prairie fire). Roll DX, acrobatics or Riding to get behind cover (or out of the way, or on an animal), or take 1d+1 damage. Repeat until the roll is made.

Urban Survival
Survival roll made by:
-7: You start a fire in an enclosed area. Roll HT or take 1d-2 smoke damage.
-6: You are exposed to a disease or hazard
-5: You are arrested (if possible)
-4: You fall in an abandoned building. Roll DX or take 1d-3 damage
-2: You are able to start a fire
-1: You are able to find safe shelter
+0: You are able to find free food in an occupied city
+1: You are able to find drinkable water in an abandoned city
+4: You are able to find food in an abandoned city
Critical failure: You are attacked (either by humans or animals)*

Underwater Survival
Survival roll made by:
-1: You are able to find food
+0: You are able to set up a pre-made survival shelter
+9: You are able to find natural air pockets
+10: You are able to find fresh water from natural springs
Note: Characters without shelter will suffer from the effects of Immersion.

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

So maybe we can get some inspiration from the margin of failure results...

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

Yeah, that's how I'm reading them too.

Thanks to all who replied. Some good ideas in here! :)

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

Regarding Survival skill and what the damage of a failed roll means, there was a thread on that a while back.

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

B426 says:

• Lose 4 FP and 1 HT each day for not drinking
• Lose 3 FP each day for not eating

So after you've run out of FP, it would look like:

• Lose 5 HT each day for not drinking
• Lose 3 HT each day for not eating

I'm thinking that the rules are overly harsh regarding not eating. The RAW implies that not eating for 15 days would kill most people. I've heard that most people could last twice that long (assuming they are drinking water). What say ye?

I'm thinking that the rules for not drinking assume that they are eating. The RAW implies lasting a week without drinking is not unusual. My impression is that if you were denied food and water, you're pretty much guaranteed to be dead in a week. What say ye?

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

Water? For sure.

Food? Not necessarily.

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

What I remember hearing, is that with ample water, you could propably last a month without food. Much would depend on your amount of fat, which the body can burn off. But I think this number reflects non-activity, and surely being bedridden for the latter half of the period. Of GURPS rules imply some sort of light activity, one could halve the period to 15 days.

Re: [G4e] Meals: Survival Vs. Foraging Rules
 

Goodness, I would call that a minonr critical failure. Failure just a failure.
What about me and my family, we're not allergic to poison ivy/oak and have thick skin?