Steve Jackson Games Forums

Steve Jackson Games Forums (https://forums.sjgames.com/index.php)
-   GURPS (https://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13)
-   -   Low-Tech Survival Skills (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=201222)

fritzbc 11-30-2024 12:56 PM

Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Suppose you’re in the wilderness. It’s the summer solstice, in 160 days there will be the first snow. It’s a temperate environment, Tech-Level is 2, with realistic survival mechanics. For the sake of simplicity, you can assume that you’ll have relevant basic equipment for skills. As well as that, you assume all attributes are 10 and you have 60 points to spend on just skills.

Now, I’m curious; What skills would you take? What are absolutely necessary, what could you need but not require? What could you forgo and what will you ignore entirely? Why? How long do you think you could realistically survive? If you’d like, you can also ask further questions about my little “Scenario”.

For me? I’d take Carpentry, Fishing, Gardening, Weather Sense, Cooking (iirc you need it to preserve food), Survival (Woodlands and Plains), and most likely Axe and Bow. I’m eager to see your responses.

Pursuivant 11-30-2024 01:18 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
High levels of Area Knowledge, on the assumption that they'd be complementary to Survival and other useful skills. Area Knowledge tells you where local resources are available.

If you have the ability to quickly clear land and suitable seeds, Farming and Gardening skills become viable for quickly-growing crops, although planting in late June is several months too late for most temperate climate grain crops. Sowing winter wheat or similar crops which overwinter and which can be harvested in June of next year is a more viable option, but that doesn't help you get through the winter.

Stealth and Tracking are requirements for most game hunting. Armoury skill is needed to make replacement arrows and weapons. Depending on the terrain, however, Fishing or Traps/Camouflage might be the better option for obtaining protein that resists becoming protein.

Naturalist skill might be useful for telling you know details about the natural environment, such as when herd animals migrate, fish spawn or fruits ripen or how prey animals behave.

Axe isn't necessarily useful as a craft skill. If you want to turn trees into lumber, Carpentry or Survival might allow decent defaults, especially at TL2, but the proper skill is PS (Lumberjack).

Other useful skills are First Aid, Leatherworking (to turn hides into leather and to make leather into shoes, etc.) and Sewing (to turn hides into clothing).

Given the long list of skills, it's clear that wilderness survival is a cooperative venture with different specialists needed. A loner would need very good Survival skill, possibly other skills, like Armoury (Bows & Arrows), Stealth and Tracking and some luck, particularly in the matter of finding good, defensible waterproof, wind-proof shelter, like a cave.

fritzbc 11-30-2024 02:19 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Interesting. I took Axe, not because of felling trees, but because if I had an axe, I might as well fend off any animals that would mess with me. However, I know it’s not common. PS (Lumberjack) is something I didn’t think about, but Gardening was for after the first winter (if I even made it though).

Now, do you think you could make anything more than clay and thatch huts? Realistically, it wouldn’t be easy, especially with a lack of nails, spending time to make dowels would slow down the process a decent bit. I am not also sure that you can replace nails with dowels in every scenario, either.

jason taylor 11-30-2024 02:59 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Area knowledge (Oregon) and Common Sense would tell me,"Walk downhill". Sooner or later you find water (there is always water in Oregon). Water will take you to civilization.

Now if you would rather NOT be near civilization-say you are flying Over the Hump and don't know whether or not you crashed in Japanese held territory, it is different.

But in Oregon survival is rather elementary as long as you do not go into actual D.B. Cooper country.

fritzbc 11-30-2024 03:04 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
I suppose survival in Oregon would be rather simple. Now try rural North Dakota or Wisconsin, maybe even Finland or North Karelia.

dcarson 11-30-2024 03:58 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Housekeeping covers basic cooking, sewing etc. So that instead of the seperate skills might be more useful.

malloyd 11-30-2024 06:54 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fritzbc (Post 2543988)
Now, I’m curious; What skills would you take? What are absolutely necessary, what could you need but not require? What could you forgo and what will you ignore entirely? Why? How long do you think you could realistically survive? If you’d like, you can also ask further questions about my little “Scenario”.

My choice is probably Navigation and locally appropriate social and job skills - I want [out] of this damn wilderness and back into whatever passes for civilization around here as soon as possible. People survive much, much better in groups.

If I'm stuck with the wilderness, well:
Survival for whatever the environment is around here is obvious for water purification, foraging, shelter and fire starting, and covers snares too, which are handy.
Sling is an easy to make weapon that can use found ammunition, so it's probably a better option than Bow for taking small game. I wouldn't mess with Tracking; hunting large animals you need to search for probably isn't worth the effort required for an individual.
Housekeeping/TL2 is actually a pretty good choice for the long term, not just for the cooking and clothing repair but for the absolutely critical long term meal planning and food preservation people don't do so much anymore but which you will need if you want to survive the winter.
Machinist/TL0 (aka "Flintknapping") is a nice skill to have for genuinely alone in the wilderness scenarios - it's not just about stone tools, but covers other materials too. If you are sticking with that Bow consider a point in Armoury [missile weapons]/TL0 - that gives you a shot at making functional replacement arrows.
Gardening isn't a bad choice for a long term food supply.
Basketry is a craft people underestimate a lot. It's pretty nice for alone in the wilderness cases since it works with lots of common raw materials and few or no tools. Containers are vital for collecting stuff, and you can probably take more water produce with basket traps than you would with Fishing.
Leatherworking maybe - you're going to need replacement clothing and shoes eventually and are not going to be doing the entire cloth production chain on your own.
For a [group] Physician/TL5 and Pharmacy (Herbal)/TL5 would be really nice, but it's actually pretty hard to treat yourself when you are sick or badly injured, so it might not be worth the points for a single person.

I assume you picked Carpentry with an eye to building a long term shelter. That's not a terrible idea, but you will need a pretty substantial toolkit to get much use out of it. If you're here with a few friends and a wagonload of supplies, then sure, alone with just your axe, maybe not so much. The Basketry (for thatching and wattle and daub) might be a good option here too.
Note BTW GURPS seems to have settled on Forestry rather than PS (Lumberjack) for its tree-cutting skill. And no isn't all that hard to construct wooden buildings (or wooden anything else) without nails - usually with better results; nails are the compromise option when fast and low skill required are major considerations.

Rupert 11-30-2024 09:22 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dcarson (Post 2543998)
Housekeeping covers basic cooking, sewing etc. So that instead of the seperate skills might be more useful.

It covers very basic sewing. It'd consider a little Sewing itself, to allow the actual making of clothes, tents, etc. But Housekeeping is absolutely worthwhile just for keeping one's living space in a habitable state.

Hiking will be useful - you'll be doing a lot of walking.

I'm not sure if soap-making comes under Housekeeping. If not, Pharmacy (Herbal), perhaps? It'd be useful regardless, but access to soap is hugely beneficial to hygiene and health.

Rupert 11-30-2024 09:24 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fritzbc (Post 2543996)
I suppose survival in Oregon would be rather simple. Now try rural North Dakota or Wisconsin, maybe even Finland or North Karelia.

That would depend where in Oregon you are and when, because what might be a 'live for a few days while you walk back to civilisation' event today might well be a 'fend for yourself for months or more' a couple of centuries ago.

malloyd 12-01-2024 05:16 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2544008)
That would depend where in Oregon you are and when, because what might be a 'live for a few days while you walk back to civilisation' event today might well be a 'fend for yourself for months or more' a couple of centuries ago.

There are very few places on Earth you can be a month's walk away from a village of some sort, at least not since the invention of agriculture. Of course it is possible to wander in circles, or be stuck on an unpopulated island, but for the most part if you want to be isolated for months, you need to start somewhere remote and not move.

fritzbc 12-01-2024 09:25 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
For the sake of simplicity then, let’s assume that there is no civilization to rejoin in whatever area. Walking back to civilization is like a cheat code, it makes the challenge too easy.

Anders 12-01-2024 12:30 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
all 60 points in Survival. With Survival 25 I can survive forever.

Pursuivant 12-01-2024 03:09 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fritzbc (Post 2543994)
Now, do you think you could make anything more than clay and thatch huts? Realistically, it wouldn’t be easy, especially with a lack of nails, spending time to make dowels would slow down the process a decent bit.

At TL2, a wattle-and-daub-walled house with a thatched roof was pretty much state of the art technology and probably the most complex structure you could build using Carpentry skill alone.

Wooden "treenails" were pretty much the norm at TL2. If you have access to reasonably straight saplings, you don't need to whittle or turn dowels.

Someone living solo in the wilderness with just a few months before Autumn would do better to create a small, weatherproof shelter like an improved lean-to, however, and spend the bulk of their time foraging and preserving food.

Access to a reliable, clean, defensible water source and a defensible, windproof, waterproof shelter are the first priorities, however.

Machinist/TL0, as others have mentioned, is also a handy skill, since it covers things like flint, horn and bone-working. Since metal is going to be scarce and you lack the tools, forge and fuel to do metalworking, it will be hard to keep TL2 hardened bronze or copper or unalloyed iron tools in good condition. That makes stone and bone tools a more available option.

Masonry is also a potentially useful skill if you have access to clay and the ability to make mud bricks. Do like the Anasazi did and build a mud brick building under a rock outcropping.

fritzbc 12-01-2024 03:34 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuivant (Post 2544040)
At TL2, a wattle-and-daub-walled house with a thatched roof was pretty much state of the art technology and probably the most complex structure you could build using Carpentry skill alone.

Carpentry was to build proper utensils, tool handles, "proper" furniture, etc. A proper home was never the goal.

Donny Brook 12-01-2024 05:45 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Assuming that you're staying in the wilderness:
Survival [8]
Area Knowledge [4]
Carpentry [4]
Fishing [4]
Cooking [4]
Sewing [4]
Knife [4]
Stealth [4]
Machinist [4]
Tracking [4]
Traps [4]
Spear Throwing (Atlatl) [4)
Spear [4]
Climbing [4]

fritzbc 12-01-2024 06:24 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
That’s pretty solid! Masonry might also be a safe bet.

naloth 12-01-2024 06:56 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
In the interest of catchall shortcuts:

Survival!-12 [Anything+2 / 60 points]

fritzbc 12-01-2024 07:50 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by naloth (Post 2544054)
In the interest of catchall shortcuts:

Survival!-12 [Anything+2 / 60 points]

Cheeky, I forgot to say anything against Wildcard! skills. I suppose you have the best chances out of all of us, then.

Varyon 12-02-2024 05:28 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2544050)
Assuming that you're staying in the wilderness:
Survival [8]
Area Knowledge [4]
Carpentry [4]
Fishing [4]
Cooking [4]
Sewing [4]
Knife [4]
Stealth [4]
Machinist [4]
Tracking [4]
Traps [4]
Spear Throwing (Atlatl) [4)
Spear [4]
Climbing [4]

Drop Traps and put those points into something else - Traps is for use against people (B223 notes that Traps is at -5 to skill to use against wild animals; DF16:36 explicitly notes that, for wilderness traps, Traps works for targets with IQ 6+, Survival works for targets with lower IQ). Survival (boosting it from 12 to 13) wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd also be inclined to reduce Knife skill and pick up Swimming.

Rupert 12-02-2024 06:47 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
I would really strongly recommend First Aid. I'm torn on Naturalist as it has a lot of overlap with Survival. However, I think a bit of it to help with things like predicting the weather and things like finding caves, useful plants, and so on is worthwhile.

fritzbc 12-02-2024 07:56 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Predicting the weather is Weather Sense/TL if I remember correctly

malloyd 12-02-2024 08:01 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2544076)
I would really strongly recommend First Aid.

Maybe a point, to give you something to insist you actually know about the concepts of sterility, shock and heat stroke. The problem is basically the same as Physician though: it's difficult to use on yourself, [especially] when you really need it. Essential for a group situation, but maybe not worth spending the points you might need for something with a higher percentage change of helping for an individual.
I actually do think you might get more out of Pharmacy (Herbal), which you can prepare in advance and in the absence of other people to give you the most horrible contagious diseases is mostly helping with less debilitating stuff you probably can function with.

Quote:

I'm torn on Naturalist as it has a lot of overlap with Survival. However, I think a bit of it to help with things like predicting the weather and things like finding caves, useful plants, and so on is worthwhile.
As a GM I'd probably let you roll most of the stuff you might get from it in a survival situation against Survival too. It will be more useful in later years, when you are looking for stuff that will help make your life nicer, not just that will keep you alive.

Donny Brook 12-02-2024 08:19 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon (Post 2544075)
Drop Traps and put those points into something else - Traps is for use against people (B223 notes that Traps is at -5 to skill to use against wild animals; DF16:36 explicitly notes that, for wilderness traps, Traps works for targets with IQ 6+, Survival works for targets with lower IQ). Survival (boosting it from 12 to 13) wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd also be inclined to reduce Knife skill and pick up Swimming.

In that case, yes definitley trade back Traps for another level of Survival.

I just realized I forgot Camoflage, so I'd put [2] from Knife on that rather than Swimming.

Varyon 12-02-2024 08:52 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2544080)
In that case, yes definitley trade back Traps for another level of Survival.

I just realized I forgot Camoflage, so I'd put [2] from Knife on that rather than Swimming.

Camouflage defaults to Survival-2 (presumably said camo only works for the environment the Survival applies to), so if you boosted your Survival to 13, you functionally have Camouflage at 11 already. That said, via the rules on buying up from defaults, you could invest that [2] into Camouflage to get it to 12 (normally costs [4] to have an IQ/E skill at IQ+2; the Survival default essentially already pays for [2] of that - the amount needed to have it at IQ+1 - so you only need to pay another [2] to boost it to IQ+2).

Lack of Swimming skill has ended many an adventurer's life, but if you're confident you won't be needing it (you'll just be staying on the shore/bank and won't be trying to ford any rivers), you could probably get away with not having it.

ericthered 12-02-2024 09:03 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Knife isn't about using knife as a tool: its about using it as a weapon. I think survival will cover all uses of it that aren't stabbing large animals to death, and you have have spear for that.

Armory to make the spear and atlatl might be a good idea though.

I'm not sure how useful climbing really is here either. Is it for running away from bears and wolves? I doubt there will be much fruit.

Varyon 12-02-2024 09:15 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fritzbc (Post 2544059)
Cheeky, I forgot to say anything against Wildcard! skills. I suppose you have the best chances out of all of us, then.

It occurs to me that, if using GURPS Power-Ups 10: Skill Trees, most of the skills one would want would fall under the Outdoor/Exploration Trunk. With [60] available, that's enough to buy the Trunk to Attribute+3 (which would cost [56], leaving you with another [4] to spend on improving a Branch and a Leaf, two Twigs, or four Leaves). That will leave you lacking some important skills (Machinist, Spear and Stealth come to mind, although the first you might be able to claim the /TL0 version falling under the Trunk), but otherwise in pretty decent shape. Because Skill Trees are fairly harsh at low levels of skill investment (at least compared to the GURPS default), you really won't be able to split up your points between skills, so that would probably be your best bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2544083)
Armory to make the spear and atlatl might be a good idea though.

I considered that, but for a situation like this, I feel having both Carpentry and Machinist/TL0 should be sufficient to make a stone-tipped spear and atlatl out of wood. Maybe have the resulting weapon count as Cheap in terms of materials and/or balance, since you don't have working knowledge of how to properly make a weapon (although considering you also have the Use skills for the weapons you're making - Spear and Spear-Thrower, respectively - it might be safe to disregard that as well).

Flowergarden 12-02-2024 09:19 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2544050)
Assuming that you're staying in the wilderness:
Survival [8]
Area Knowledge [4]
Carpentry [4]
Fishing [4]
Cooking [4]
Sewing [4]
Knife [4]
Stealth [4]
Machinist [4]
Tracking [4]
Traps [4]
Spear Throwing (Atlatl) [4)
Spear [4]
Climbing [4]

I would probably remove cooking and maybe change it to housekeeping. Housekeeping is used for preserving food and some other stuff.
Sewing I would probably change to leather working, for tanning and making boots
If you want you can take tactics, maybe even optional specialization (hunting) but for me it's too much
And bow is better than spears throwing. Accuracy, range, damage and ammo weight at least.
And most crafting rolls would be with a bonus for easy task.

So, something like that
Survival [12]
Area Knowledge [4]
Carpentry [4]
Fishing [4]
Housekeeping [4]
Leatherworking [4]
Knife [1]
Stealth [2]
Machinist [4]
Tracking [4]
Bow [4] + Armoury missile weapons [2]
Spear [2]
Climbing [2]
Swimming [1]
Gardening [2]
Artist (pottery) [2]
First Aid [2]

Donny Brook 12-02-2024 11:04 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2544083)
Knife isn't about using knife as a tool: its about using it as a weapon. I think survival will cover all uses of it that aren't stabbing large animals to death, and you have have spear for that.

Armory to make the spear and atlatl might be a good idea though.

I'm not sure how useful climbing really is here either. Is it for running away from bears and wolves? I doubt there will be much fruit.

Climbing is for getting out of reach of animals that can't climb, climbing up to sheltering caves, collecting food and resources out of reach (e.g. nuts, eggs), setting food caches, positioning beams for shelters, ...

Rupert 12-02-2024 03:00 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by malloyd (Post 2544079)
As a GM I'd probably let you roll most of the stuff you might get from it in a survival situation against Survival too. It will be more useful in later years, when you are looking for stuff that will help make your life nicer, not just that will keep you alive.

Naturalist also overlaps a lot with Area Knowledge, so is more useful if you're moving around a lot and thus don't have intimate knowledge of the places you're in.

acrosome 12-07-2024 11:33 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fritzbc (Post 2543988)
For me? I’d take Carpentry, Fishing, Gardening, Weather Sense, Cooking (iirc you need it to preserve food), Survival (Woodlands and Plains), and most likely Axe and Bow. I’m eager to see your responses.

Do you start with equipment appropriate to your skills, or do you have to make them?

Because if you have to make them then Machinist/TL0 might be needed just to start. And then, yes, Carpentry, or even better Armoury (Missile Weapons). Slings are damned easy to make. I have made them out of jute cord. But you need Survival to make cordage. Trapping is also the most energy efficient way to get protein, and I think that Survival covers trapping, but if not then Traps. But if you have Armoury then go for a Bow instead of a sling- they are better, though they take more work to make. Probably Axe, yes. You can use it with a one-handed club, too. Knives are probably more useful than an ax, but you don't actually need Knife skill for survival uses of a knife. Throwing Stick might be handy. First Aid (or something that defaults to it like Physician) is a must, no matter what. Then Navigation or Area Knowledge, obviously, to get back home.

But if you get to start with equipment then you don't need much more than Guns (Shotgun)/TL8 and Survival/TL8. The latter would probably come with a GPS. :)

Edit-- I see now that you mean for long-term survival, and it seems to be implied that you do not start with equipment. In fact, you might be plopped down naked. I'll also assume that you are dropped into unfamiliar surroundings so that Area Knowledge is not available.
  • Survival
  • Carpentry, to make better shelter/equipment than with Survival
  • Traps, if not covered by Survival
  • Machinist/TL0
  • First Aid
  • Herbalist
  • Housekeeping
  • Axe
  • Thrown Weapon (Stick)
  • Spear, for dangerous fauna
  • Navigation (Land)
  • Gardening
  • Leatherworking
  • PS (Tanner) if not covered by Leatherworking
I sort of favor minimizing, so that what skills I do have can have more points in them. For instance I thought about Bow, but trapping is so much more efficient that I'd rather dump more points into that, whether it be Survival or Traps. I still might add it and Armoury (Missile Weapons) if the location seemed conducive. But Axe and Thrown Weapon (Stick) can use the same weapon, and the stick is easily always at hand for taking transient opportunities, like a foolhardy bunny.

Of course, I'm also tempted to just put all 60 points into Survival, since almost anything else I might need could arguably default from it, especially if Survival covers trapping. Survival-25 has to be pretty awesome.

Flowergarden 12-07-2024 12:44 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by acrosome (Post 2544610)
[*] Traps, if not covered by Survival[*] PS (Tanner) if not covered by Leatherworking

Small traps are coverd by survival, big one are covered by traps (low tech companion 3)
Tanner isn't covered but defaults to leatherworking -3

stranger38 12-10-2024 09:53 AM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dcarson (Post 2543998)
Housekeeping covers basic cooking, sewing etc. So that instead of the seperate skills might be more useful.

Housekeeping in our games is the most important skill haha. nothing beats it.

RGTraynor 12-10-2024 01:01 PM

Re: Low-Tech Survival Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by malloyd (Post 2544079)
Maybe a point, to give you something to insist you actually know about the concepts of sterility, shock and heat stroke. The problem is basically the same as Physician though: it's difficult to use on yourself, [especially] when you really need it. Essential for a group situation, but maybe not worth spending the points you might need for something with a higher percentage change of helping for an individual.

Coming late to the party, but I agree. The prudent bushwhacker relies more on not getting hurt and not eating the poison berries than on fixing themselves up when they do. All my years of group camping -- and with my medical knowledge and the paramedics' crash kit I'd have with me -- I had to deal with a serious situation exactly once.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:26 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.