4e Revised
 

I was originally writing this as a response to the 20th Anniversary of 4e thread; but I realized that I was getting off track.

I'd love to get a 4e Revised to commemorate the occasion, retroactively updating the core material with lessons learned over the last two decades while still (mostly) maintaining compatibility with existing 4e supplements: start with implementing Kromm's "Ten for Ten" from Pyramid #3/70, then apply minor tweaks such as changing Off-Hand Weapon Training from a Technique to a Perk, adjust the Spirit template to incorporate Mute (an oversight that 4e supplements have been trying to work around ever since), and possibly reorganizing existing material: Basic Set already provides alphabetical lists of Advantages, Disadvantages, and Skills; so how about incorporating Skill Categories directly into Characters and at least attempting to organize all Advantages and Disadvantages in the same manner that the various Social traits are organized? Lump Advantages, Disadvantages, Perks, Quirks, and Features together into a single section, but group them into thematically related Categories similar to Skill Categories.

In my wildest dreams, I'd split the Basic Set into at least three books, with the third book featuring Exotic and Superhuman Traits as well as the Magic and Psionics chapters and the Meta-Traits and Racial Templates from Characters (because, let's face it, Meta-Traits are nearly always used to provide components for Racial Templates rather than Professional Templates), and splitting the Creating Templates chapter in Campaigns between Characters (for advice on creating Professional Templates) and the new book (for creating Racial Templates). The idea would be for each of the three core books to be roughly 200 pages each, with the first book dealing with normal human characters, the second book dealing with inhuman and empowered characters, and the third book being mostly game rules and GM advice.

Thoughts?

Re: 4e Revised
 

OK, in my 4e revised Slave Mentality would be renamed No Initiative and a little note would be attached to it saying it used to be called Slave Mentality.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Divorce Per and Will from IQ.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Make Fast-Draw a skill-based Perk.

Improve the animal examples.

Incorporate Powers into the core books.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I think all I'd really like to see is Basic Set reorganized, new art, etc. If they wanted to add in some minor adjustments like the 10 for 10, I wouldn't be opposed. I also think that the skill list could be redone to make a lot of skills just a version of "Knowledge (X)".

But what I'd really like so see is a new version of Lite, adding some magic back in and making it a better tool to sell people on the system.

Re: 4e Revised
 

What would you recommend?

Agreed. This can be done with minimal effort by taking the Psionics chapter and generalizing it to a Powers chapter, with Psionics used as a worked example. Maybe even excerpt portions from GURPS Psionic Powers so that the owner has something ready to use out of the box.

Which is another reason to split Characters into two books.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I agree. A better presentation and reorganization of topics would help many new players.
Also, graphical improvements. Today's market wants shiny colors and glossy pages.
I would also update to 4E the solo adventure "A Night's Work" from 3E and include it in the basic set. It helped me a lot to understand GURPS during the 3E era.
At the end, a page with a link to Caravan to Ein Arris will help people GM and play a ready-to-go adventure. Include with it pre-gen 150-point characters.
Those two "modules" would teach newcomers basic combat and social interaction.

Create one more free adventure for the Dungeon Fantasy series to teach basic magic use and a little bit of powers. Also, include 150-point pre-gen characters.

I emphasize 150 points instead of DF 250 because it is easier to manage 150 points than 250, and they can still act within their chosen niche.

Link, in some way, all three "modules" with Infinite Worlds if it will continue to be GURPS default setting.

Also, each of your three books must come with 50 to 250-point iconic characters. And more down-to-earth ones, instead of the "I have no idea how to play this C3IR07-guy".

I would include a line of novels with iconic characters and settings, such as Dragonlance romances. But that is off-topic.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Is it sad that 20+ years later, I'm still running 3e? Lol

If there were a 4eR, however, I'd prefer a one book presentation. I realize that's not optimal, but the three book format sounds intriguing. I can see that...players, GM, Special.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the Skill restructuring from GURPS Lite implemented in a 4e Revised.

I'm also in favor of a line of supplements for GURPS Lite serving as "adapters" to appropriate sourcebooks: e.g., a GURPS Martial Arts Lite that has everything needed to use GURPS Martial Arts that isn't in GURPS Lite. But that would be a separate project.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Agreed about most of your suggestions. I'd put most of the 4e sample characters in the Special book, as they tend to rely on the Exotic and/or Supernatural tree Traits; I'd remove Dai's Warp and put him back as a generic TL3 thief; and I'd fill out the Characters book with interesting but "ordinary" characters suitable to Caravan to Ein Arris.

Actually, I'd provide four or five Professional Templates, each with the aim of being as generic and universal as possible, corresponding loosely to That Other Game's archetypes: a fighter, a rogue, a scholar, a medic, and an entertainer; then I'd have each of the Characters book's sample characters being an example of one of those Templates in use, plus one "freeform" sample character to illustrate that you don't need to use the Professional Templates if you don't want to.

Oh: I wouldn't include iconic characters in the Campaigns book,; I'd include All In a Night's Work and Caravan to Ein Arris instead..

Re: 4e Revised
 

To save space, I would drop the original magic system from the core books in favor of a brief explanation of how to make Advantages work like 'magic'.

Also I would rationalze the way exotic skills (Power Blow etc.) work and work Imbuements into that.

It would also be nice to have a section combining core parts of How to Be a GURPS GM and Action 2.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I think that a new 4e GURPS Lite or GURPS 4e Update with a series of changes to make the most common changes/upgrades official will do.

We already have GURPS in 3 books, Characters, Campaign and Powers (or any mix of your 3 favorite GURPS books for that matter)... and no matter how you rearrange the books you will end with some people that will think of better ways of rearranging it. I like the way advantages are separate from disadvantages for example, I would't like mixing them in categories, forcing me to look at multiple categories in search of a -5 pointer.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Well, GURPS Magic is very nearly self-contained; I think the only thing it needs from the Basic Set is the Magery Advantage. So, yeah; if the space is needed, I could see cutting the Magic chapter. But I'd rather not if it can be avoided.

That said, I'd also take the opportunity to publish a GURPS Magic 4e Revised, adding Magery and Magical Resistance to the book to make it truly self-contained, and applying the numerous corrections to its spells that were the result of Magic being a rushed project coming out before 4e had properly settled.

Coming up with a generic, universal exotic skills system has been a long-time dream of mine; but I honestly don't see it being a 4eR thing.

This. 4e has a chapter on advice for the GM; I could see updating it using How to Be a GURPS GM as a guide. And the "10 for 10" article cited several sections of Action 2 for inclusion.

The problem with that is that it involves consulting multiple books: the 4e Basic Set for the original rules, and the 4e Update to see if rose particular rules have been revised. I can see putting out an Update, too, as long as it isn't too extensive. But the reason for a 4eR would be to avoid having to consult multiple books in order to know what's going on with one rule: it should incorporate errata and revisions directly into the text, rather than providing a patch to use alongside the text.

Technically true; but in practice, you're just being dismissive of the proposal rather than actually bringing forward a solid argument why it's fine the way it is. Except for:

Instead, you have to look through an alphabetical list in search for a –5 pointer. Not much of an improvement; especially since you can do that just as easily by consulting the lists of Traits that already exist in 4e's Characters.

Re: 4e Revised
 

The issue is the animal stats seem rather haphazardly thrown together. Canines are missing improved hearing, bears are missing improved smelling, boars poor vision is not accounted for, etc.

So I recommend that they all be revisited by someone with more subject matter knowledge and more attention to detail.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Also, animals need some kind of tweak to deal with "mental stun."

Re: 4e Revised
 

If you're going that route incorporate at least the bare bones of powers and make Sorcery the games default magic system. It's much more generic and flexible than the current standard.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Honestly, Magic and Psionics in the corebook feel like the legacy of GURPS' origins in The Fantasy Trip. Both should be stripped out and left to the add-on modules, which have the space to deal with them properly.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Almost everyone plays fantasy. Stripping out magic would lose a large portion of the player base.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Do many people play fantasy using only Basic Set and its magic rules, though? Or would many new 4e Revised buyers be likely to do so?

I don't know, but I don't expect the answer to either is "lots of people"...

I appreciate what BS accomplishes in presenting the "classic" magic system in 20 or so pages, but the Psionics chapter does its job in just 4 pages by taking the "use advantages, with Power Modifiers and Talents" approach. A 4e Revised treatment of magic could do pretty much the same (while of course pointing to Magic and other books for alternate takes).

Might make sense to just roll short treatments of magic, psi, maybe superpowers, etc. into the Advantages chapter as applied examples. Just enough to get players going, with pointers to the full treatments in other books.

Interesting to consider, anyway, for a hypothetical revision.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I think there are disadvantages that should really be Self-Control but are not. Examples are Stubbornness (which is a SC disadvantage in DFRPG), Paranoia (roll whenever you have to trust someone) and Shyness (roll whenever you have to go on stage).

Re: 4e Revised
 

I'd like the GURPS Magic system to have a well-defined name, just so that one can talk about magic systems without confusion.

Re: 4e Revised
 

That's a case where precision would reduce clarity. The initiated know that GURPS Magic means one specific system of GURPS magic, and GURPS Default Magic System, for example, would just add yet more words without really being more newbie-friendly.

Re: 4e Revised
 

One of the Ten For Ten rules that would in theory be rolled into 4eR involves players voluntarily triggering their characters' Disadvantages in order to guarantee the RP character point reward. The easiest Disadvantages to apply this to are the ones with Self- Control rolls.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I prefer to call it "Scholastic Magic", myself. Or just Skill Magic.

But I'd also take the opportunity to correct a 4e blunder, by renaming Ritual Magic as Path Magic and noting that what GURPS Thaumatology calls Path/Book Magic shall henceforth be called Ritual Magic.

Re: 4e Revised
 

That's illusory, though: first, the Psionics chapter isn't so much a ready-to-go system as it is a toolbox; whereas the Magic Chapter is ready to go as is. Second, the Psionics chapter is only four pages because the various Abilities are presented in the Advantages chapter; if the Spells found in the Magic chapter were instead incorporated into the Skills chapter, the Magic chapter would also only be a handful of pages.

Personally, I'd go the other way around: take the Exotic and Supernatural Traits, as well as Enhancements and Limitations, out of the Advantages and Disadvantages chapters, as lumping them all together like that is a big part of why GURPS has the reputation for complexity that it does. Presenting them in their own section, possibly even in their own book, would go a long way towards reducing the perceived complexity of GURPS.

That said: if there's page count for it, I'd want to provide trimmed-down versions of Psionic Powers and Divine Favor in order to show how you can do different things with the Powers rules. But I'd also keep the Magic chapter, not replacing it with Sorcery, because it's important that GURPS dispel the image of being a Hero System knockoff — which is what it becomes if you try to do everything through the Powers system. Heck, there's even a Pyramid article called Chi Sorcery that shows how you can scrap the bulk of the exotic skills and replace them with Powers — something I would not want 4eR to do.

Re: 4e Revised
 

The first level of the Costs Fatigue limitation should be worth -15%, with 5% per increment after that. If the character has enhanced ways of recovering FP the initial discount should remain at -5% or the limitation should be excluded for them by the GM on grounds it does not actually limit.

Autohypnosis and Meditation skills should be combined under the name Autohypnosis. One way to do Autohypnosis could be the practice of meditation, but the game effects should all come from success on an Autohypnosis skill roll.

The 'Limited Use' limitation should go back to the 3e rule of 1 hour per 'use' for Advantages that are usually always on.

Observation skill should be only about noticing relevant things. References to the surreptitious quality of the effort should be deleted. Being surreptitious while Observing should use Stealth and Camoflage for outdoor environments and Shadowing or Savoir Faire for being unnoticed in plain-sight, public settings.

A number of Disads should have their descriptive text rewritten to make them playable rather than being campaign-derailing nightmares (e.g. Trickster).

Tactics and Strategy skill should have compulsory specializations:

Tactics (Land, Low-Tech), Tactics (Land, High-Tech), Tactics (Naval, Low-Tech), Tactics (Naval, High-Tech), and possibly Ultra-Tech versions also, as well as others if the GM decides the setting needs them.

Strategy (Naval), Strategy (Land), and Strategy (Enterprise) for non-military purposes.

Hobby, Professional and Expert skills should be reworked as a continuum.

Re: 4e Revised
 

A streamlined or simplified approach for some of the rules and systems in chapter 10 and 14 would be nice. At the very least, things like the simplified falling damage from Action could be included as an option.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I've been calling it College Magic, personally. And I agree that, in a theoretical 4e Revised, it would probably be best to leave out of the Basic Set... but part of that is personal bias (I'm not a fan of College Magic), so I can't really be relied on to say if this is genuinely a good idea or not.

I was going to suggest the idea of some guidelines to turn Advantages into Skills for setting makers to create their own skill-based magic/psionics/ninjutsu/whatever, then it occurred to me that, with Kromm's guidelines on doing the opposite being a thing, someone had probably already tried to work something like that out. Lo and Behold! It was you!

Re: 4e Revised
 

We could also use a 4e Magic Compendium. We've had 20 years of additional spells scattered throughout books and Pyramid. Some spells are tied to the sources, but many are generic enough to plug-and-play into a typical magic game.

Re: 4e Revised
 

If I were to do a 4th edition Revised (vs. a full 5E), retaining backwards compatibility is key. So I'd limit changes to things that streamline, tweak, and clarify. So like:

- Incorporating DF slam rules
- Modernizing language (similar to Girl Genius did with Appearance, I'm sure there are lots of other examples of things that haven't aged well in the last 20 years)
- Pulling in some of the streamlined rules options from GURPS Action (especially range bands, but also BAD)
- Incorporating some of the key options from Power-Ups (e.g., the off-hand weapon one)
- Tuning some templates
- New art!

Ideally, you'd also fix some of the most obnoxious point cost issues by tweaking the trait vs. the point cost (therefore not making point costs wrong in older products), but that might be too tricky.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Rationalize/standardize all the damage types, to include things like control (from wrestling, whips, binding attacks, &c.)

Re: 4e Revised
 

Would Skill-based Magic work to differentiate it from Spells as powers, Path/book & similar?

Re: 4e Revised
 

And Pickpocket and Sleight Of Hand should be Filch techniques rather than their own skills.

I'd also make Fast Draw (Ammunition) an improvable technique for combat (but not sport or art) versions of weapon skills that take ammunition.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Strategy already does. B222. "You must specialize in a type of strategy...".

Tactics sort of already does, but it should be changed in line with your suggestion. B224. "...in small-unit or personal combat". The inference is that it's small unit, land, but really tactics can be on varying scales and modes of combat.

Re: 4e Revised
 

There are several pistol sports where fast draw is part of it or almost all of it.
http://www.fastdraw.org/fd_trying.html

Re: 4e Revised
 

That would be nice.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Turn some of the "background skills" like Speed Reading and Typing into Perks.

Use the Hit Location rules from Low Tech Companion III which turn the "Groin" hit location into the Abdomen. Treat the Groin as an independent hit location targeted like the Vitals.

Stop using different words to describe different levels of the same traits. For example, not "Cautious, Cowardice" or "Extra Flexibility, Double Jointed" just Cowardice [-1] to define it a Quirk or Extra Flexibility 2 [15].

Add extra levels of leveled traits where they make sense, like Bad Smell or Disturbing Voice with just a -1 Reaction or Voice with just a +1 Reaction.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I'd call it Low Volition, to make it clear that it's not a combat-related trait.

There should also be different levels of the disadvantage to model different levels of volition. For example, being able to take care of basic needs without being ordered to do so.

It could also be folded into Reprogrammable since the two traits tend to be linked.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Provide more a more complete set of traits for animals similar to those found in the Animalia animal templates, including Sensory, Sleep/Wake Cycle, Dietary related traits.

Why? Because characters will want to sneak up on/past animals, keep them as pets or possess them and use their senses.

Ditch mental disadvantages for animals unless they're actually documented.

For example, a Lion should have something like Acute Hearing 2, Bad Sight (Motion Sensitive), Colorblindness (Red/Green), Combat Reflexes, Discriminatory Smell, Enhanced Move 0.5 (Ground, Limitation: Costs FP), Increased Consumption 1 (but with Cast Iron Stomach 1 as a limitation, since they can eat carrion, etc.), Parabolic Hearing 2, Restricted Diet (Carnivore), Sleepy 4 and Super Jump 1.

They shouldn't have Laziness - being a wild lion is hard work and lying around when it's too hot to hunt is just a good survival strategy! They can be very active at night and can cover many miles in a day if required.

They might have Compulsive Behavior (Hunting/Pouncing or Territoriality), however.

Give them a full suite of skills. For example, the Basic Set Lion template lacks both Survival and Stealth skills!

Re: 4e Revised
 

The GURPS Wiki has a list of the Ten for Ten by name, with the original source cited, in case someone has those, but not the Pyramid in which they were collected.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Does IQ get cheaper?

Re: 4e Revised
 

Unless they've already been working on this for the past two years this doesn't make much sense as it would be impossible to get a good revision out in time to commerate 20 years of GURPS. I think they should do a real full revision to GURPS to 5e and shoot for a 25 year annniversary commemoration. Regardless it would need a significant time investment and DEFINITELY should get input from GURPS players and GMs. This includes a lot of playtesting.

Re: 4e Revised
 

A minor quibble of mine since 4e first came out was thrown spear damage remaining unchanged from earlier editions. It should deal one-handed damage the same as any other thrown weapon does.

Re: 4e Revised
 

It does if you follow the advice in Power Ups 9: Alternate Attributes.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Not to be confused with Ritual Magic (the skill).

Re: 4e Revised
 

…which was first introduced in the 3e book GURPS Voodoo, where it served as the core of a new magic system also introduced in that book that was called Ritual Magic.

There's always been a dual use of "Ritual Magic", with one of those uses being the skill of that name. What changed in 4e was what the other use was: in 3e, it referred to an entire magic system which included as one of its features a learning system where you picked up entire Paths as skills while learning individual rituals (the system's equivalent of spells) as Maneuvers — the 3e term for what 4e calls Techniques. The other part of 3e Ritual Magic was rules about how to perform magic, referred to as Effect-Shaping. To add to the confusion, GURPS Castle Falkenstein introduced a different magic system called Ritual Magick, which featured a minor variation on Paths (called Books) as the learning model, and an entirely new "working magic" system patterned loosely after the origins game's "accumulate cards until you achieve the effect" system. What both systems had in common was that they felt like "performing rituals" rather than "casting spells".

In the 4e Basic Set, Ritual Magic was used to refer specifically to the Paths-as-Skills/spells-as-Techniques learning system, in anticipation of the Effect-Shaping model eventually being introduced in a later supplement. It was, in effect, a placeholder for the full Ritual Magic system, grafting the learning model into the Basic Set magic system.

But when that supplement (Thaumatology) finally came out, the Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulating models for working magic appeared under the "Path/Book Magic" chapter. Which I find to be weird, as Paths and Books have to do with the "learning magic" side of things, but Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulation have to do with the "working magic" side of things. There's nothing inherently ritualistic about Paths and Books, as can be seen by how easily Paths can be applied to the classical magic system instead of its traditional Skill Tree learning model; but Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulating are inherently ritualistic, to the extent that you need to introduce the Ritual Adept Advantage in order to approximate the instant gratification nature of the default spellcasting system. And, while I've never seen anyone actually do this, there's nothing fundamental about using Paths and Books in conjunction with the Effect-Shaping or Energy-Accumulating models: they could be paired with a Skill Tree model, perhaps using the guidelines in Magic Styles to turn the default penalties given for use with Effect-Shaping into prerequisite trees.

But the thing that's all about Paths gets called "Ritual Magic", and the thing that's all about ritualistic casting gets called "Path/Book Magic". That's backwards.

Finally, there's "Ceremonial Magic Made Easy" from Pyramid #3/28, which is a bit of a misnomer: rather than being about making it easy, what that article does is to make Ceremonial Magic more like Effect-Shaping magic, bringing ritual spaces, symbols, magical materials, and Sympathy, Contagion, and Naming into the mix. If this was a GURPS 5e thread, I'd look into merging the Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulating models into the standard magic system as variations on or alternatives to the Ceremonial Magic rules; and then say that he's Ritual Magic is Ceremonial-Only Magic using the Effect-Shaping variant (for the Voodoo-derived version) or the Energy-Accumulating alternative (for the Castle Falkenstein version), and replacing the College Magic system of skill trees with either Path Magic (for Voodoo) or its Book Magic variant (for Castle Falkenstein). For 4eR, though, I'd be happy with just getting the name-switch between Path Magic vs. Ritual Magic implemented.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Not in my preferred version. If you look at the pricing of Talents, 20 points is pretty cheap for 'just-IQ'. 10 points is very, very cheap - cheaper than e.g. Smooth Operator, which is mostly IQ skills. Why buy that talent if IQ is cheaper?

Re: 4e Revised
 

Yeah, that would be great. I could also see the somewhat-clumsy grappling rules from Basic Set being replaced by those from Fantastic Dungeon Grappling (essentially a simplified and improved version of Technical Grappling), as well as the rules from "The Broken Blade" at least being given as an alternative to the default weapon breakage rules. I'd also be partial to one of the simplified options from "On Target" replacing the current Aim rules, but that might be asking for a bit too much.

My own inclination is to make Fast Draw a Technique, probably defaulting to something like Prerequisite Skill -3 (although there is precedent for Prerequisite Skill +0 - consider Reverse Grip, for example). Someone who is primarily interested in Fast Draw would just put [2] or [4] in Guns (Pistol), buy up the Fast Draw Technique to full, and then grab Technique Mastery to bump it up higher (optionally, you might allow for multiple levels of Technique Mastery, if you need someone with Guns 10 and Fast-Draw 20 or something like that).

Granted, that's arguably more heroic/cinematic than reality, where the ability to draw your weapon quickly and the ability to use it are fairly divorced from each other (of course, for Harsh Realism, those who are untrained or otherwise have low skill may have difficulty drawing their weapon in a single Ready maneuver as well).

Options to let an attack be traded for a Feint (as introduced in Martial Arts) or a Ready (as seen with Fast-Firing Bows, also introduced in Martial Arts) would also be welcome; note the latter case would call for a roll against weapon skill to ready the weapon. That would also allow for the as-written Fast Draw to still exist but also allow highly-skilled characters to make use of their weapon skill instead, via a Rapid Strike. But I'm probably getting a little too far afield here...

Re: 4e Revised
 

I'm curious how many people would want 4eR to feature a Control Points system instead of the existing Success Rolls system as the default grappling rules. I tend to like the latter due to the lower amount of bookkeeping involved; but I do see the argument for making the rules for grapples more consistent with the rules for strikes.

Re: 4e Revised
 

At least one. ;-)

Re: 4e Revised
 

I keep thinking some sort of formatting change to very obviously mark optional rules/levels of detail would be a major benefit, especially since a lot of problems for new players seem to come from not just being overwhelmed by options they don't want/need but also not really getting when something is an option in the first place.

Using that to integrate streamlined rules like Action's BAD or more detailed rules like some of the stuff High-Tech does with guns could go a long way, I think, to demonstrate that GURPS is a toolkit and you need to (or get to) set all the dials and levers yourself.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Basically just take DFRPG Spells and expand it to include all the spells from GURPS Magic, adjusted to fit the DFRPG mindset (and yes, I mean include the Enchantment College, GURPS 4e College Magic wouldn't be 'just for DFRPG', so it should have all the spells a generic kitchen sink fantasy would use as well, just adjusted to fit the changs to be straight out usable in DFRPG if a GM wanted).

I have no idea what you mean, the exotic Skills are already "universal". Unless you mean making Magic Spells into the system as the Chi Skills?



No Disad should ever be rolling against an Attribute, they should all either impose their penalty or be Self-Control.

Yes Absent-Minded, I am looking at you.


The simplified and streamlined should be the basic rules, the detailed and more complicated should be "advanced" or "options". It's easier to convince Players to add complication "for verisimilitude's sake" than to take it away once they are used to it. Especially considering that GURPS is known for being "realistic" and that being one of it's two big draws (flexibility of character design is the other).


In a perfect world both IQ and DX become more expensive, if only to make Talents more attractive.


Just a chapter in the beginning of the Campaign book detailing that "this is a toolbox, use the tools you want" and a few simple worked examples would do wonders to help that.

But yes, also making Options and Advanced rules more differentiated from "and this side box is a regular rule just better described but this identical one on this other page is an optional rule" is not really useful.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I guess I'd just say "Use all of my house rules!", of course! I haven't read through all of this thread, so I'm sure these have been mentioned:

• Use Slam rules from Dungeon Fantasy.
• Use the modified ST damage table that Kromm endorsed.
• Split Per and Wil from IQ.
• Picks and spikesshould do pi damage with a (2) armor divisor, like a bodkin.
• Add a Control Rating to Pacifism, and probably a few others. Stubbornness, etc.
• Make a 5-point version of Honesty that isn't quite as crippling.
• Quite a few skills need mandatory specialization, like Tactics. But there are others.
• Add the rules for Tactics from Martial Arts.
• Include the Optional Wounding Rules from High-Tech, such as Body Shots.
• Critical success or failure only on a natural 3 or 18 or success/fail by 10 (almost 1-in-20 crits is too common).
• Quite a few ads/disads probably need to be renamed and rationalized, especially Talents. Too many cute setting-specific names. Include the old name in the description, so it's searchable in a PDF, for backwards compatability.
• And quite a few should be re-scaled to have a level 0. Level should generally always equal the bonus/penalty. And many ads/disads with varying names for different levels should just be leveled under the same name.
• Include all of the hit locations from Martial Arts.
• Include meta rules like Buying Success, Flesh Wounds, Miraculous Recoveries, Player Guidance, etc. from Impulse Buys. These can replace Luck and Serendipity- remove them.
• Add complementary skills.
• Add Chases from Action and Ambushes from Dungeon Fantasy.
• Add survival rules adapted from After the End.
• Include all of the non-combat techniques that have been published. And some skills can become techniques instead, like Pickpocket and Filch being Sleight of Hand techniques. Fast Draw could maybe be a Guns (or Bow, etc.) technique.
• Consider the new ads/disads from GURPS Animalia, like Motion-Sensitive Bad Sight.
• Split Languages into two advantages: Fluency and Literacy. The latter would be categorized by alphabet, like Latin alphabet, Cyrillic alphabet, Chinese logograms, Egyptian hieroglyphics, etc.
• Remove the Infinite Worlds setting from the Basic Set. But include Caravan to Ein Arras, since it doesn't use magic and could just be played with the basic combat system (see below).
• Change Physician skill to Treatment skill. Nurses know only Treatment, whereas physicians add Diagnosis and/or Surgery.
• Remove Feints- subsume feints into Deceptive Attacks.
• Get rid of the Staff special defensive bonus and formalize Defensive Grip instead.
• The Fantastic Dungeon Grappling system (thanks, Doug!)

We probably actually need four books in the 4eR Basic Set:

My greatest recommendation would be not to split the game books into Characters and Campaigns. Instead have a Basic and an Advanced book, and make Magic completely separate. The Advanced book would for instance include Tactical Combat and all of the ten thousand situation-specific rules, but character generation would be in Basic with the Basic Combat rules, along with the chapter on success rolls. The Basic book should not include all of the detailed hit locations from Martial Arts- those would be in the Advanced book.

This Basic/Advanced split is to make it clear that GURPS is a toolbox. The greatest criticism heard about GURPS is that it is "too complicated"- which is not entirely unfounded- and that's why it needs a Basic rules book. This is also why the basic magic system should be retained in the new Basic Set- sorcery and RPM require too much work and/or too many judgement calls from the GM for beginning players/GMs. By all means include them but sorcery, psionics, and superpowers should be in the (fourth) 4eR Powers book.

As much as Technical Grappling was fun to read and say "Yeah, that's awesome", I have kind of concluded that it's too much book keeping in a game that is already heavy on book keeping, as well as a large number of yet more odd bonuses/penalties to memorize. But certainly there are settings where it would be worth it- like a modern or scifi setting where weaponry is controlled, so that it basically becomes a Martial Arts game. Maybe put it in the Advanced book, too?

Re: 4e Revised
 

Adding All the Things is how we got to where we are with 4e in the first place.

Re: 4e Revised
 

This is certainly something that would be far more useful than adding yet another bunch of rules to either Characters or Campaigns. A lot of the discussion I see about GURPS elsewhere seem to think that you have to use everything in the Basic set for every campaign. Because a lot of other RPGs aren't meant to be modular and advanced rules are usually clearly labelled as optional.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I've used the term "Drone Mentality" in my custom tables.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Wrong yardstick. TG was my first book ever. FDG is better by far, and gets everything needed for what it was purposed for done in about five pages of text, plus some art. Adding particular "techniques" is almost unnecessary, and Exxar pointed out in a blog post that all of them fit neatly within the framework with no special rules.

In any case: back to the start. TG isn't the right benchmark for inclusion; Fantastic Dungeon Grappling is.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I'll say it again:

A 4e Revised should pull the Infinite Worlds stuff out of the Basic Set - that includes redoing building Dai as the example to make him a DF-esque Thief or such - and changing many of the iconics to fit their home genres without tying them into IW (the vampire makes for a good MH antagonist, actually) - and replace the IW chapter with a few short 2- to 4-page adventures (possibly solo ones, like All In A Night's Work!) in different genres in order to showcase what GURPS is capable of.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Another reason for needed revision, rules are all over the place.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Well, they are; but I don't think this is an example of that. I would like to see huge chunks of the Power-Ups line integrated directly into 4eR — in particular, the comprehensive lists in Perks, Talents, Enhancements, Quirks, Wildcard Skills, and Limitations — but not everything from Power-Ups deserves core book status, and PU9 is almost exclusively this. It's even in its name: Alternate Attributes.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Girl Genius sourcebook calls it Hive Mentality.

That's simultaneously more PC and more descriptive.

It also makes a number of other tweaks that could be added to the standard rules.

Re: 4e Revised
 

In that they offer qualitatively new game features, Imbuements and Alternate Attributes are different from the others in the Power-Ups line (which are mostly summarizations and elaboration of existing features).

Making viably sized Basic 4e(Rev) books will need trade offs. Some existing Basic Set content can be repurposed to supplements to make room for more appropriate material developed later. The room to add things will still be constrained, however, so among the contents of the PU 2-8, these are the priorities I would identify to include in a Basic Set books:

1. All canonical Enhancements and Limitations

2. Key improvements and implementation concepts for Enhancements and Limitations (hopefully, with reworked Powers content being added to Basic, skillful editorial could make all this more compact than in the original versions).

3. Perks are tricky. There are a lot of them, but they really are like Advantages, just low CP cost. My impression is that people really like Perks. They also improve characterization, and help capture source-material features. On balance, I think it would be worth including the full list.

4. Elaboration on the concept and implementation of Talents plus clear guidelines and explicit 'permission' for the GM to make them up should be in the new Basic, but only a couple of examples -- I think the space to list them all is not worth it. Talents should be made part of or adjacent to the chapter on Attributes.

5. For Wildcards, I think, like Talents, the conceptual rules and a couple of examples are sufficient for Basic Set without a comprehensive list.

6. Regarding Impulse Buys, I think while the elaborative content in the book is good, it also doesn't all seem necessary, particularly if relevant general GM advice is being added already. If it can be explained with a page or two of text plus the list of options, I'd say to put it in the new Basic. If it needs more elaboration, it should go into a GURPS Enhanced volume.

As for Quirks, I would remove the existing list of Quirks from Basic and replace it with a half-column-sized explanation that they cannot be advantageous, must be operationally role-playable, and should be role-played. Honestly, I don't see the need to complicate or list Quirks anywhere.

Final notes: (1) Alternate Attributes belongs in a GURPS Enhanced type book that I mentioned earlyer. (2) In a previous post I already advocated including Imbuements in a general reworking of exotic skills.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I think IW is actually one of the biggest mainstream draws of GURPS. The biggest question with GURPS is always: what do I do with this? And the answer can't always be cowboys, modern action, or average-mana fantasy.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I wouldn't be opposed to a 4eR that presents itself as a "Basic Set" that more or less follows the same overall structure as the earliest printings of 3e, and an "Advanced Set" that covers everything else in 4e. So

4eR Basic Set: character creation, limited to mundane traits (possibly reorganized to downplay the distinctions between Advantages, Perks, Features, Quirks, and Disadvantages, which could be a space- saving move as you only need to explain the concept behind a given set of Traits once instead of up to five times), regular Skills and Techniques (including rules for making your own) , Equipment, Character Development, Character Templates and Styles (with Dai Blackthorn, Robyn of the Meadows, Katrina, and Corwyn Bearclaw presented as sample characters, possibly along with one or two others); then Success Rolls, Basic Combat, Injury/Illness/Fatigue, Animals, Game Master advice, Game World design, charts and tables, All In A Night's Work, and Caravan to Ein Arris.

4eR Advanced Set: exotic Traits, skills, and Techniques, including the basics of Imbuements; Meta-Traits and Racial Templates; Powers, using starter sets of Psionics and Divine Favor to illustrate; Magic (using the standard system as a backbone but presenting Paths as an alternative to Skill Trees and Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulating as alternatives to Ceremonial Magic); Technology and Artifacts; Infinite Worlds; and 4e's signature characters (sans Dai).

The page counts just might work.

Re: 4e Revised
 

It can be concise; see Template Toolkit 4: Spirits, which summarizes the essentials in under a page (see "Narrative Magic", pp.32–33, and the Impulse Points Advantage on p.8).

Re: 4e Revised
 

I think quirks are just as useful and important as perks.

One thing I would not include a complete list of is perks like those from Martial Arts. Many of those have the potential to be overpowered if not used in context. At the very least including them means a fair few words on how they are limited, etc.

Another thing I'd like to see in any revised work - a bit of a rework of the section on techniques. If nothing else, explaining that a skill should really only have one or two techniques attached to it.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I presume you mean that it's not cost-effective to buy up more than about two techniques of a single skill, not that a skill can't have many techniques available?

Re: 4e Revised
 

An age ago, someone at SJG, maybe Kromm, said that any new edition or revision would be vastly different. It wouldn't be books, they would prioritise a sort of modular online database, or words to that effect.

Sounds a lot like D&D Beyond or Demiplane to me. I hold a tiny candle of hope that integrated tools will make it easy to combine Realm Management, Mass Combat, Boardrooms & Curia and City Stats. Or spark a wave of revision

Re: 4e Revised
 

I would hope that if SJG does this, that they don't make the same blunder as WotC. WotC obsoleted content that people had paid for, and overwrote it with content for a new edition. They were more or less forced to do a rollback for anyone who lost access to content (or had characters functionally changed), but they only did so after getting a massive negative reaction.

Re: 4e Revised
 

That seems to be this quote:
The trick with this would be finding a practical way to do it, without the need to develop special software (way too expensive) or discard a lot of SJ Games staff's skills.
I think we can be reasonably confident about that.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I would like to see a more modern player-facing take on self control/frequency of appearance and related "roleplaying" mechanics. Get an XP for giving in to a flaw, that sort of thing. A little more agency and choice rather than "this must be BALANCED like a WARGAME!" stuff.

For example, Dependents has this whole elaborate punishment system if they die, but losing and potentially losing your loved ones is a huge source of drama and not something you want players to avoid or feel punished for failing to stop, so I'd rework that somehow.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Why does everyone hate Dai the Jumper? I thought that was a great update to an old friend.

Re: 4e Revised
 

It was done because the signature characters in 4e are a "special missions" team in the Infinite Worlds setting; and you don't get to be on an elite unit like that if you're a common thief.

I don't need Dai to be an interdimensional troubleshooter.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I have to admit that I have not read FDG, since I have little interest in dungeon fantasy as a genre. I mean, I bought DFRPG because why not? But mostly only the basic set, for reference almost, not everything. (And I decided that I didn't like DFRPG when they removed powerstones and used a "power object" instead. I generally don't like over-the-top games in general, though.)

So maybe I'll have a look at FDG, now.

Re: 4e Revised
 

Thing is, I've seen several new-to-GURPS GMs implode trying to use everything in an IW campaign as their first game, since that's what the Basic Set encourages, both with the iconics and the IW chapters.

My suggestion of several short adventures is to showcase "here's how you use GURPS for different genres which play differently". Also lets you set an adventure in a far-future setting with interstellar travel, which IW discourages with its "no timeline set in the future compared to the near-future Homeline" statement (at least in the Basic Set).

Re: 4e Revised
 

Absolutely agree! I edited my post above to include that.

Mine would be fairly close to that:

4eR Basic System:
All the stuff that it would be hard to play a mundane setting in GURPS without:

• Character creation.
• Advantages, including most of Power-Ups 3, though many talents need better names.
• Disadvantages.
• Perks & Quirks more comprehensively covered from those Power-Ups books, but don't go absolutely nuts.
• Skills & Techniques- and some skills need to be changed to techniques, frankly.
• I would include the supernatural ads, disads, perks, quirks, skills, etc., so that a sort of a mundane horror/monster-hunting setting would be playable, as well as a Lantara setting, with just the Basic System.
• But not magic, spells, or psionics!
• The current 4e Chapter 10: Success Rolls on B343-361.
• The current 4e Chapter 11; Combat (i.e the basic combat system) on B362-383.
• Include DFRPG Slams.
• The current 4e Chapter 14: Injury, Illness, and Fatigue on B418-444.
• The current 4e Chapter 16: Animals and Monsters on B445-454.
• Character development, e.g. awarding CP after a scenario.
• Basic Set equipment.
• Chases from Action and Ambushes from Dungeon Fantasy.
• Survival rules adapted from After the End.
• Links to E23 for Caravan to Ein Arris and/or All In A Night's Work! Introduce new players to Warehouse23 while giving them a couple of free scenarios!

4eR Advanced Toolkit book:
Basically, everything else in Basic Set 2: Campaigns not already listed, and a few other things:

• The default Magic and Psionics systems, Chapters 5 and 6. Including the entire GURPS Magic spell list would be desirable, though not all of the other optional rules other than Ceremonial Magic.
• The current 4e Chapter 12: Tactical Combat on B384-392, plus Fantastic Dungeon Grappling.
• The current 4e Chapter 13: Special Combat Situations on B393-417.
• Move all templates and meta-traits here, including the current 4e Chapter 7:Templates on B258-263 and Chapter 15: Creating Templates on B445-454.
• The current 4e Chapter 17: Technology and Artifacts on B462-485.
• The better rules for Sense Rolls, Ambushes, Wilderness Survival, Tactics skill, etc. from various other GURPS products.
• The following from Impulse Buys: Buying Success/Failure, Buying Effect, Buying Reactions, Player Guidance, Flesh Wounds, Deflecting Diasadvantages, Miraculous Recoveries, and Points for Energy.
• Maybe basic chapters on Martial Arts and Tactical Shooting, including styles/ads/disads/perks/quirks/skills.
• Chapter 19: Game Worlds
• How to be a GURPS GM

The GURPS Advanced Toolkit book should have this in 100-point bold print on the first page:

GURPS is a Toolkit- use what you need, ignore what you don't.

I am conflicted over whether basic Magic, Psionics, and Powers (including Sorcery) should be in the Advanced Toolkit book- that might all be better in a completely separate third book. (Three is a nice number.) But OTOH the Advanced Toolkit might need more pagecount. So I guess include the first two but Powers/Sorcery might still need it's own book- it's a big subject.

Re: 4e Revised
 

That can happen no matter what you use the page count for. GURPS WWII itself can be like drinking from the firehose.

Maybe. What if instead you just had a sample IW adventure with a tamer mix of abilities? 250 point characters. Dai Blackthorn, a time-snatched cowgirl, a Homeline troubleshooter, etc.

But if you really wanted to showcase the flexibility of the system, you could include Caravan, then a series of sections that rapidly converts it to a cowboy game, a 20th century Middle East military zone mission, and a sword-and-planet fantasy.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I could see SJGames going with a VTT at some point, with the caveat that GURPS' sheer versatility makes the task challenging. Especially when you consider the level of rules customization that GURPS promotes.

But there's still a need for physical books in the TTRPG community; and a hypothetical GURPS VTT would need to be complementary to that, not a replacement of it.

Re: 4e Revised
 

I have to agree with that.

Re: 4e Revised
 

"One adventure to rule them all..."
Jokes aside, that, sir, is genius!
You would show the system's flexibility and teach new GMs how to adapt content from other sources.
From a player's perspective, if they play the same scenario multiple times, they will know that certain things will/can happen and could focus on the new stuff they are playing.
Like an all-martial artist Caravan, a space cowboys game where you fight with spaceships scouting for the Caravan.

Start playing with mundane characters; add magic, psi, races, etc.
I think I'll need to do that within my games.