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restlessgriffin 08-28-2024 07:30 PM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders (Post 2535844)
Divorce Per and Will from IQ.

Does IQ get cheaper?

restlessgriffin 08-28-2024 07:38 PM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 2535823)
I was originally writing this as a response to the 20th Anniversary of 4e thread; but I realized that I was getting off track.

I'd love to get a 4e Revised to commemorate the occasion, retroactively updating the core material with lessons learned over the last two decades ...

Thoughts?

Unless they've already been working on this for the past two years this doesn't make much sense as it would be impossible to get a good revision out in time to commerate 20 years of GURPS. I think they should do a real full revision to GURPS to 5e and shoot for a 25 year annniversary commemoration. Regardless it would need a significant time investment and DEFINITELY should get input from GURPS players and GMs. This includes a lot of playtesting.

Lancewholelot 08-28-2024 09:26 PM

Re: 4e Revised
 
A minor quibble of mine since 4e first came out was thrown spear damage remaining unchanged from earlier editions. It should deal one-handed damage the same as any other thrown weapon does.

rkbrown419 08-28-2024 09:48 PM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin (Post 2535952)
Does IQ get cheaper?

It does if you follow the advice in Power Ups 9: Alternate Attributes.

Ramidel 08-28-2024 10:42 PM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 2535907)
I prefer to call it "Scholastic Magic", myself. Or just Skill Magic.

But I'd also take the opportunity to correct a 4e blunder, by renaming Ritual Magic as Path Magic and noting that what GURPS Thaumatology calls Path/Book Magic shall henceforth be called Ritual Magic.

Not to be confused with Ritual Magic (the skill).

dataweaver 08-29-2024 09:01 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramidel (Post 2535966)
Not to be confused with Ritual Magic (the skill).

…which was first introduced in the 3e book GURPS Voodoo, where it served as the core of a new magic system also introduced in that book that was called Ritual Magic.

There's always been a dual use of "Ritual Magic", with one of those uses being the skill of that name. What changed in 4e was what the other use was: in 3e, it referred to an entire magic system which included as one of its features a learning system where you picked up entire Paths as skills while learning individual rituals (the system's equivalent of spells) as Maneuvers — the 3e term for what 4e calls Techniques. The other part of 3e Ritual Magic was rules about how to perform magic, referred to as Effect-Shaping. To add to the confusion, GURPS Castle Falkenstein introduced a different magic system called Ritual Magick, which featured a minor variation on Paths (called Books) as the learning model, and an entirely new "working magic" system patterned loosely after the origins game's "accumulate cards until you achieve the effect" system. What both systems had in common was that they felt like "performing rituals" rather than "casting spells".

In the 4e Basic Set, Ritual Magic was used to refer specifically to the Paths-as-Skills/spells-as-Techniques learning system, in anticipation of the Effect-Shaping model eventually being introduced in a later supplement. It was, in effect, a placeholder for the full Ritual Magic system, grafting the learning model into the Basic Set magic system.

But when that supplement (Thaumatology) finally came out, the Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulating models for working magic appeared under the "Path/Book Magic" chapter. Which I find to be weird, as Paths and Books have to do with the "learning magic" side of things, but Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulation have to do with the "working magic" side of things. There's nothing inherently ritualistic about Paths and Books, as can be seen by how easily Paths can be applied to the classical magic system instead of its traditional Skill Tree learning model; but Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulating are inherently ritualistic, to the extent that you need to introduce the Ritual Adept Advantage in order to approximate the instant gratification nature of the default spellcasting system. And, while I've never seen anyone actually do this, there's nothing fundamental about using Paths and Books in conjunction with the Effect-Shaping or Energy-Accumulating models: they could be paired with a Skill Tree model, perhaps using the guidelines in Magic Styles to turn the default penalties given for use with Effect-Shaping into prerequisite trees.

But the thing that's all about Paths gets called "Ritual Magic", and the thing that's all about ritualistic casting gets called "Path/Book Magic". That's backwards.

Finally, there's "Ceremonial Magic Made Easy" from Pyramid #3/28, which is a bit of a misnomer: rather than being about making it easy, what that article does is to make Ceremonial Magic more like Effect-Shaping magic, bringing ritual spaces, symbols, magical materials, and Sympathy, Contagion, and Naming into the mix. If this was a GURPS 5e thread, I'd look into merging the Effect-Shaping and Energy-Accumulating models into the standard magic system as variations on or alternatives to the Ceremonial Magic rules; and then say that he's Ritual Magic is Ceremonial-Only Magic using the Effect-Shaping variant (for the Voodoo-derived version) or the Energy-Accumulating alternative (for the Castle Falkenstein version), and replacing the College Magic system of skill trees with either Path Magic (for Voodoo) or its Book Magic variant (for Castle Falkenstein). For 4eR, though, I'd be happy with just getting the name-switch between Path Magic vs. Ritual Magic implemented.

Anders 08-29-2024 09:17 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin (Post 2535952)
Does IQ get cheaper?

Not in my preferred version. If you look at the pricing of Talents, 20 points is pretty cheap for 'just-IQ'. 10 points is very, very cheap - cheaper than e.g. Smooth Operator, which is mostly IQ skills. Why buy that talent if IQ is cheaper?

Varyon 08-29-2024 10:19 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benz72 (Post 2535935)
Rationalize/standardize all the damage types, to include things like control (from wrestling, whips, binding attacks, &c.)

Yeah, that would be great. I could also see the somewhat-clumsy grappling rules from Basic Set being replaced by those from Fantastic Dungeon Grappling (essentially a simplified and improved version of Technical Grappling), as well as the rules from "The Broken Blade" at least being given as an alternative to the default weapon breakage rules. I'd also be partial to one of the simplified options from "On Target" replacing the current Aim rules, but that might be asking for a bit too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcarson (Post 2535941)
There are several pistol sports where fast draw is part of it or almost all of it.
http://www.fastdraw.org/fd_trying.html

My own inclination is to make Fast Draw a Technique, probably defaulting to something like Prerequisite Skill -3 (although there is precedent for Prerequisite Skill +0 - consider Reverse Grip, for example). Someone who is primarily interested in Fast Draw would just put [2] or [4] in Guns (Pistol), buy up the Fast Draw Technique to full, and then grab Technique Mastery to bump it up higher (optionally, you might allow for multiple levels of Technique Mastery, if you need someone with Guns 10 and Fast-Draw 20 or something like that).

Granted, that's arguably more heroic/cinematic than reality, where the ability to draw your weapon quickly and the ability to use it are fairly divorced from each other (of course, for Harsh Realism, those who are untrained or otherwise have low skill may have difficulty drawing their weapon in a single Ready maneuver as well).

Options to let an attack be traded for a Feint (as introduced in Martial Arts) or a Ready (as seen with Fast-Firing Bows, also introduced in Martial Arts) would also be welcome; note the latter case would call for a roll against weapon skill to ready the weapon. That would also allow for the as-written Fast Draw to still exist but also allow highly-skilled characters to make use of their weapon skill instead, via a Rapid Strike. But I'm probably getting a little too far afield here...

dataweaver 08-29-2024 10:28 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
I'm curious how many people would want 4eR to feature a Control Points system instead of the existing Success Rolls system as the default grappling rules. I tend to like the latter due to the lower amount of bookkeeping involved; but I do see the argument for making the rules for grapples more consistent with the rules for strikes.

DouglasCole 08-29-2024 10:46 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 2535989)
I'm curious how many people would want 4eR to feature a Control Points system instead of the existing Success Rolls system as the default grappling rules. I tend to like the latter due to the lower amount of bookkeeping involved; but I do see the argument for making the rules for grapples more consistent with the rules for strikes.

At least one. ;-)


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