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johndallman 08-28-2024 07:11 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
I'd like the GURPS Magic system to have a well-defined name, just so that one can talk about magic systems without confusion.

Ramidel 08-28-2024 07:37 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
That's a case where precision would reduce clarity. The initiated know that GURPS Magic means one specific system of GURPS magic, and GURPS Default Magic System, for example, would just add yet more words without really being more newbie-friendly.

dataweaver 08-28-2024 08:20 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders (Post 2535891)
I think there are disadvantages that should really be Self-Control but are not. Examples are Stubbornness (which is a SC disadvantage in DFRPG), Paranoia (roll whenever you have to trust someone) and Shyness (roll whenever you have to go on stage).

One of the Ten For Ten rules that would in theory be rolled into 4eR involves players voluntarily triggering their characters' Disadvantages in order to guarantee the RP character point reward. The easiest Disadvantages to apply this to are the ones with Self- Control rolls.

dataweaver 08-28-2024 08:39 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 2535902)
I'd like the GURPS Magic system to have a well-defined name, just so that one can talk about magic systems without confusion.

I prefer to call it "Scholastic Magic", myself. Or just Skill Magic.

But I'd also take the opportunity to correct a 4e blunder, by renaming Ritual Magic as Path Magic and noting that what GURPS Thaumatology calls Path/Book Magic shall henceforth be called Ritual Magic.

dataweaver 08-28-2024 09:07 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone (Post 2535889)
I appreciate what BS accomplishes in presenting the "classic" magic system in 20 or so pages, but the Psionics chapter does its job in just 4 pages by taking the "use advantages, with Power Modifiers and Talents" approach.

That's illusory, though: first, the Psionics chapter isn't so much a ready-to-go system as it is a toolbox; whereas the Magic Chapter is ready to go as is. Second, the Psionics chapter is only four pages because the various Abilities are presented in the Advantages chapter; if the Spells found in the Magic chapter were instead incorporated into the Skills chapter, the Magic chapter would also only be a handful of pages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone (Post 2535889)
Might make sense to just roll short treatments of magic, psi, maybe superpowers, etc. into the Advantages chapter as applied examples. Just enough to get players going, with pointers to the full treatments in other books.

Personally, I'd go the other way around: take the Exotic and Supernatural Traits, as well as Enhancements and Limitations, out of the Advantages and Disadvantages chapters, as lumping them all together like that is a big part of why GURPS has the reputation for complexity that it does. Presenting them in their own section, possibly even in their own book, would go a long way towards reducing the perceived complexity of GURPS.

That said: if there's page count for it, I'd want to provide trimmed-down versions of Psionic Powers and Divine Favor in order to show how you can do different things with the Powers rules. But I'd also keep the Magic chapter, not replacing it with Sorcery, because it's important that GURPS dispel the image of being a Hero System knockoff — which is what it becomes if you try to do everything through the Powers system. Heck, there's even a Pyramid article called Chi Sorcery that shows how you can scrap the bulk of the exotic skills and replace them with Powers — something I would not want 4eR to do.

Donny Brook 08-28-2024 10:09 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
The first level of the Costs Fatigue limitation should be worth -15%, with 5% per increment after that. If the character has enhanced ways of recovering FP the initial discount should remain at -5% or the limitation should be excluded for them by the GM on grounds it does not actually limit.

Autohypnosis and Meditation skills should be combined under the name Autohypnosis. One way to do Autohypnosis could be the practice of meditation, but the game effects should all come from success on an Autohypnosis skill roll.

The 'Limited Use' limitation should go back to the 3e rule of 1 hour per 'use' for Advantages that are usually always on.

Observation skill should be only about noticing relevant things. References to the surreptitious quality of the effort should be deleted. Being surreptitious while Observing should use Stealth and Camoflage for outdoor environments and Shadowing or Savoir Faire for being unnoticed in plain-sight, public settings.

A number of Disads should have their descriptive text rewritten to make them playable rather than being campaign-derailing nightmares (e.g. Trickster).

Tactics and Strategy skill should have compulsory specializations:

Tactics (Land, Low-Tech), Tactics (Land, High-Tech), Tactics (Naval, Low-Tech), Tactics (Naval, High-Tech), and possibly Ultra-Tech versions also, as well as others if the GM decides the setting needs them.

Strategy (Naval), Strategy (Land), and Strategy (Enterprise) for non-military purposes.

Hobby, Professional and Expert skills should be reworked as a continuum.

tonkotsu_ramen 08-28-2024 10:32 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
A streamlined or simplified approach for some of the rules and systems in chapter 10 and 14 would be nice. At the very least, things like the simplified falling damage from Action could be included as an option.

Varyon 08-28-2024 10:36 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 2535907)
I prefer to call it "Scholastic Magic", myself. Or just Skill Magic.

I've been calling it College Magic, personally. And I agree that, in a theoretical 4e Revised, it would probably be best to leave out of the Basic Set... but part of that is personal bias (I'm not a fan of College Magic), so I can't really be relied on to say if this is genuinely a good idea or not.

I was going to suggest the idea of some guidelines to turn Advantages into Skills for setting makers to create their own skill-based magic/psionics/ninjutsu/whatever, then it occurred to me that, with Kromm's guidelines on doing the opposite being a thing, someone had probably already tried to work something like that out. Lo and Behold! It was you!

edk926 08-28-2024 11:56 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 2535864)
Well, GURPS Magic is very nearly self-contained; I think the only thing it needs from the Basic Set is the Magery Advantage. So, yeah; if the space is needed, I could see cutting the Magic chapter. But I'd rather not if it can be avoided.

That said, I'd also take the opportunity to publish a GURPS Magic 4e Revised, adding Magery and Magical Resistance to the book to make it truly self-contained, and applying the numerous corrections to its spells that were the result of Magic being a rushed project coming out before 4e had properly settled.

We could also use a 4e Magic Compendium. We've had 20 years of additional spells scattered throughout books and Pyramid. Some spells are tied to the sources, but many are generic enough to plug-and-play into a typical magic game.

thalcos 08-28-2024 11:57 AM

Re: 4e Revised
 
If I were to do a 4th edition Revised (vs. a full 5E), retaining backwards compatibility is key. So I'd limit changes to things that streamline, tweak, and clarify. So like:

- Incorporating DF slam rules
- Modernizing language (similar to Girl Genius did with Appearance, I'm sure there are lots of other examples of things that haven't aged well in the last 20 years)
- Pulling in some of the streamlined rules options from GURPS Action (especially range bands, but also BAD)
- Incorporating some of the key options from Power-Ups (e.g., the off-hand weapon one)
- Tuning some templates
- New art!

Ideally, you'd also fix some of the most obnoxious point cost issues by tweaking the trait vs. the point cost (therefore not making point costs wrong in older products), but that might be too tricky.


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