Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

I can understand the -5DX thrust attack that adds 1 die of damage. This basically gives a pole weapons bonus of 1 die of damage in a jab attack.

However, if coupled with a charge, would that add another die of damage. So, if they declare a thrust attack during a charge, they could add a thrust at the end of the charge at -5DX. I didn't see ITL address this. Charge plus thrust would be +2 die damage.

Part of me wants to say that this combination can't occur but, I think that it could be possible. Doing so at a -5DX makes it tough to do. Who would want to risk losing the charge damage bonus to get a thrust in on it too.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

I would allow it.

DX -5 is a big risk to get the extra die from Shrewd Blow. If they are willing to risk missing on a charge it must be important to get that extra high damage. I like rewarding having talents so, unless I see this get abused, I am good with this.

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That said, here is an example beginning character:

ST9 DX12 IQ11 Javelin + Weapon Expert(Pole Weapons).

A charge + shrewd blown has an adjDX 7 in order to score 3d-1.
Standing vs charge + shrewd blow hits on adjDX 9 to score 3d-1.

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Compare the above to this standard 2-handed sword fighter:

ST14 DX10 IQ8 2-handed sword

every turn: adjDX 10 to score 3d-1.

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The sword many hits more often to do the same damage. The javelin has some advantages: first strike when charging and may carry a shield. The sword has some advantages: hits more (DX10), can do this damage every turn it attack (not only charges).

There is a balance of advantages and disadvantages.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

Points up your ears, Elf, age 20
ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, MA 14
Talents include: Dancer (mundane), Pole Weapons Expertise, Running, Shield Expertise
Languages: Common, Elvish
Weapon: very fine javelin (1d+2)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-3)
Armor: Small shield stops 2 hits, -2 to be hit with javelin and shield in hand
Equipment: $570 in other gear, hopefully includes clothing

Pointy charges targets to the rear with a shrewd blow whenever possible (adjDX 11, 3d+2 damage) and when engaged uses the expertises to drop enemy adjDX by 2 points in order to disengage before the other side even gets a swing in.

Best of all usually gets a strike in before a flinger can trip him up. (Due to pole weapon charges strike first.)

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

I'm struggling mightily here not to make a joke about a pole dancing elf.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

I concur.

I'm having some trouble resolving "Standing vs charge + shrewd blow hits on adjDX 9 to score 3d-1". The adjDX9 doesn't show up in the conditions below. There is also a +1 damage for Weapons Expertise.

Standing (engaged) would be DX12 with 1d damage.
Standing (engaged) + Shrewd Blow would be adjDX7 with 2d damage.
Charge would be DX12 with 2d damage.
Charge + Shrewd Blow would be adjDX7 with 3d damage.

I concur.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

Yes, the damage bonuses stack. But, the Shrewd Thrust DX penalty might make the Pole Weapon Expert’s attack occur after other polearm attacks, which could well mean that the attack is never made at all.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

You just had to go there, didn't you? LOL!

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

Great catch and Good point.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

Even though an elf with pole weapons seems a bit odd, this looks like an interesting character build. I have experimented with the shield expertise combination and it does help the survivability of a lightly armored character. Getting a better chance of the first strike helps much.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

A couple of corrections:

A javelin is a 1d-1 weapon, so a "very fine" javelin would be 1d+1, not 1d+2.

Only bladed weapons may be "very fine". I don't consider javelins as bladed. Spears yes, but javelins no. You may rule differently.

My point was comparing the figures, not the equipment. BTW, a 2-handed sword may be very fine. And yes a figure with a 2-handed sword may also attack from the rear. So, not necessary for a figure comparison.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

ITL pg 111, "A figure who stands still (or simply changes facing) and uses a pole weapon against a charge attacker gets a +2 DX."

The javelin figure charging + shrewd had adjDX of 7. Thus the javelin figure standing vs charge + shrewd would get adjDX of 9.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

It would be 1d+2 with the Expert talent bonus, if allowing javelins to be made at Very Fine quality.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

nice catch. Thanks for correcting me.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

Not for a price the suggested starting budget will allow.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

Thanks
I forgot about that pole weapon scenario.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

When standing vs a charge, I'm having a little trouble accepting that the stationary defender with a pole weapon should be able to aim a shrewd thrust. It seems cinematically incorrect, especially if you picture the defender has braced their pole arm with the butt grounded. Shouldn't it be viewed more like, the attacker by charging in is aiming their body at the defender's spear-point, not the defender aiming their spear-point at a particular spot on the attacker?

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

The spearman grounds the spear butt, but aims the tip. Thus they still get a DX roll.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

Oh I agree they get the roll, and the +2DX is wholey justified, but adjusting their tilt and aim to hit one precise spot, in a split second, on the kamikaze-like attacker rushing straight at them is where I think it's a bit of a reach.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

When fighting someone, they are doing whatever they can not to get killed. Whether they are running at you or standing toe-to-toe that does not change. Hitting that one precise spot gets a -5 DX. So, precision is not easy.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

How often have you seen a starting javelin expert toughen up over time to pole-axe the opforce vs just flipping xp into dx?

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

I *might* have had a javelin expert as an NPC. I've never seen one as a PC.

In fact, aside from Fencing, I've never seen a PC weapons expertise dude.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

Re. the OP, I would definitely allow one to use the 'shrewd' attack option as part of a charge attack. The value proposition of the talent is that you can trade a major DX penalty for an extra die of damage, without reference to what your base damage was to begin with. I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to take that trade of if you wish, whether you are charging, set vs. charge, jabbing or making a normal attack.

Re: Pole Weapons Expertise Question
 

Thanks. I have come to the same conclusion. It's a big risk to take to get an extra 2d of damage while making a charge attack or countering a charge attack.