Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

The Bestiary has an entry on rats that explicitly limits rats to two to a hex (as ITL does), but explicitly states that rats may attack from adjacent hexes. I could've sworn that ITL requires rats to attack from the same hex, not adjacent hexes, but I can't seem to find evidence for that. (Oneiros says that the Red Crypt solo adventure explicitly has this restriction, but perhaps this is a hangover from earlier rules.)

In the worst case, then, a person could be attacked by fourteen rats. In practice, at least in my settings, rats will usually be in tight spaces -- but the same cannot be said for wasps, say.

That starts to make the nuisance something to pay attention to. A question remains, however: do rats engage? If so, then a swarm of rats will seriously slow a party. If not, then rats are not so hard to handle. If you win initiative, you can force them to move first. One may expect them to rush to their prey, at which point the party can run right through them, minimizing the number who can attack -- likely to two per person. This depends, of course, on the size of the swarm. It also depends on whether one can step through hexes with one or two nuisance critters (perhaps flying) without being slowed or worrying about tripping.

Up until now, I've chosen to play rats as stacking up to six per hex, able to climb on a person so that while they do not engage, they cannot be outrun -- once they're latched on, so to speak. Moreover, rats in my previous play were never engaged. These were a lot of special rules.

I'm going to try out this new (to me) interpretation with the official stacking rules, attacks from adjacent hexes. I think that I'll try rats not engaging larger figures, though they may be engaged by larger figures. Larger figures may move into or through a hex containing two rats at no penalty.

But I thought that the new material in the Bestiary may lead to new discussions of how to handle these nuisances. That they explicitly can attack from adjacent hexes makes the stacking limit of 2 more reasonable -- and I'm surprised that I don't see anything to the contrary in ITL. But it's also a little odd that rats may attack adjacent hexes while dragonets (or Blood Hawks from OSM) cannot.

I don't know when I'll next have a party hassled by rats or other nuisance critters, but I'll let you know how it goes.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

ITL 100: "Rats may stack at two per hex; ... the first two rat bites each turn don’t count, but the rest do."


Only way to get more than two bites per turn with that stacking limit is to allow attacks into adjacent hexes.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

I see now, thanks to a post by Axly, that I've just misread the text on ITL 100 today -- several times. You just missed it too, despite it being the very next sentence after your quoted text.

Hence, the Bestiary text is inconsistent with the text in ITL. This is, I think, an unacknowledged revision to the rules or, more likely, the bolded text above was meant to be removed when the two-hex stacking limit occurred, but it was not.

(Incidentally, Axly chose to interpret the stacking limitation to apply only outside of HTH and to interpret rats sharing a hex with a figure as being in HTH, so that the inconsistency Henry points out goes away. It seemed a bit complicated to me as I skimmed it today, so apologies to Axly if I misrepresented him.)

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

If the rats are in HTH with you, are you in HTH with them--which would mean that you fall to the ground if one of them successfully initiates HTH? That would be a bit hard to swallow unless they rats the size of a medium dog.

I do not like the stacking limit of two rats per hex. Two giant rats, perhaps. But typical rats should be able to swarm up to a many more per hex.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

The HTH solution was due to Axly in the post I linked to. If I recall correctly, Axly suggested that just as one may be in HTH with a standing ogre, a rat can be in HTH with a standing person.

I understand your concern that two per hex is too few, just for the sake of realism[1], but I'm more interested in whether the limitation works for game terms. Rats should be a nuisance, neither so easy that it's not worth the encounter nor so hard that a party of adventurers are likely to lose a member. If the stacking limit of two (with adjacent attacks) works to make an interesting but not deadly encounter, I'll use it.

I've rethought engagement. Earlier today, I said that humanoids should engage rats and I'm okay with that (despite the argument that one can't engage a swarm). I also said that rats can't engage a humanoid, but I believe I'll change that up. Just as it takes two humanoids to engage an ogre or three for an adult dragon, I think I'll say that three rats engage a humanoid. That will reduce the mobility of a character who is being swarmed by rats, but not allow a single rat to engage.

So, here's my next swarm rules.

1. Stacking limit of 2 rats per hex.
2. Rats are engaged in the usual manner.
3. Three rats are required to engage a humanoid.
4. Rats may enter a humanoid's hex. Of course, if the only path to the hex requires becoming engaged, then the rat must stop as soon as engagement begins (though he may shift into the hex next turn).
5. Humanoids may enter a rat's hex using the same rules. Since it takes three rats to engage a humanoid, the humanoid may be able to continue movement after entering a rat-occupied hex.
6. Rats may attack from the same or adjacent hex.

The above applies as well to bats, spiders and wasps, of course.

A big difference between these rules and the more liberal stacking that Shostak suggests is that in a sufficiently narrow (one hex) passage, rats aren't too hard to handle. Even a single character will, if attacked from the front, face only two rats on the first turn. Any survivors can move into his hex and two more show up in front of him. Conceivably, he could face six rats at once, but only if the rats are smart enough to make room for newcomers and if the character is crap at rodent control.

In a wide open area, a person can become quickly overwhelmed with fourteen of the buggers.

(Gratuitous arithmetic:
Suppose that we have a ST 10, DX 10 character in a one-hex wide passage with an endless supply of rats advancing. He will kill, on average, one rat per turn, while each rat will do 1/2 point of damage. He has a 50/50 chance of killing a rat before the rats get to attack.

On the first turn, he will take 3/4 point of damage on average, and there will be one rat in front of him at the end of the turn.
On the second turn, he will take 1 1/4 point of damage on average, and there will be two rats in his hex or in front of his hex at the end of the turn.
After the third turn, he takes 1 3/4 hits on average and again there will be three rats in his hex or in front of his hex at the end of the turn.

In this very simplified analysis, subsequent turns will be just like the third turn. Assuming he's unarmored, he'd be expected to snuff it in the seventh turn. He would have killed six or seven rats, so a mere ten or eleven rats would suffice to do him in, if my very superficial thinking is roughly right.

Of course, this guy is pretty fragile for a PC and he didn't do anything but stand and hack.)

[1] But, realism is already stretched when a bunch of rats attacks a party of humans...

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Note ITL 127: "Similarly, a man beset by rats or spiders in his hex"

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. This is the paragraph you mention, with relevant bit bolded.

Yes, a humanoid can trample rats or spiders in his hex or an adjacent hex (ITL 100, "If you are trying to stomp a rat in an adjacent hex,..."). He can't stop bats or wasps as a free action, at least not while they are on the wing.

In fact, bats and wasps are a LOT more dangerous than rats and spiders. Any situation where a party is attacked by 25 vampire bats seems a lot worse than a mere nuisance, since they may be able to ignore engagement by flying overhead (depending on circumstances) and they can only be attacked once per turn at DX -4, generally speaking.

But I feel like I'm missing your point, Henry.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Note that the human is in HTH, but the giant is using normal attacks and trampling. The same applies for human vs rat.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Maybe. That's Axly's understanding, I think.

However, it is not suggested by the text in ITL or the Bestiary. In ITL, it merely says that a rat must attack from the same hex, not that it is in HTH when it does so. In the Bestiary, we see that "Rats may 'stack' at two per hex, and may attack from your hex or from adjacent ones," which again doesn't suggest anything about HTH.

If the rats were only allowed to use HTH when fighting from the same hex as the target, then they could only enter a man's hex using the HTH rules, I'd think -- unless the man voluntarily entered the rats' hex. Moreover, the rat would be +4 to be hit[1].

Are these the consequences you see from the supposition that the rat must be in HTH to attack from the same hex?

[1] The discussion of trampling doesn't mention a +4 to trample a (necessarily) prone human. I can't recall whether I usually use that +4 or not. I guess it applies.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Yes, I agree it is my understanding ;-) that rats in human's hex is analogous to humans in a giant's hex.

True that rat and nuisance creatures in HTH with you are not really in HTH, in that they do not get the DX +4. It is simply how they must be to attack. Notice in ITL 100 the paragraph about their DX 10 means just rolling 1 die each for their attacks. So, not only no DX +4, but also no chance at a critical success.

Because it is not really HTH, the person with the rats on him/her is not prone. If they were prone for whatever reason I would be inclined not to give them a stomp/trample.

Regarding how rats enter a hex, there is disagreement here amoungst some of us. I use the HTH rules. I know another GM says he likes them to just let them run onto figures without stopping to be engaged. I think both methods are valid as the rules are not clear. Choose one and stay consistant.

BTW, the rat rules (and spider rules) are and adaptation of the rules to handle spiders from the original Death Test. In DT, the rules are different but have much in common with the ITL small nuisance creature rules. In DT, you can get as many as 12 spiders in your hex (that is all the spiders from the room). So, that is where I extrapolate that while Legacy ITL limits 2 rats per hex, that more are allowed when on a figure. That and HTH rules (which I know is not a perfect fit), also allows for unlimited figures in a HTH hex.

As far as whether Stomping (Trample?) gets a DX +4 with in hex rats, that is a GM call. The write up in the rats section (ITL 100) is not clear, but if you think Stomping is the exact equivalent to Trampling (ITL 126-7), then the figure does not get DX +4 while stomping. Stomping adjacent hex never gets a DX +4, the only question is if in-hex-stomping does.

BTW, to Shostak's point: I also ignore the limit of 2 rats per hex. I think this was a change in Legacy (at least I don't recall it from before), and so I instead limit small nuisance creatures to 5 per hex. I think it is more realistic, and since I do force them to use the HTH initiation, 2 per hex would be too limiting for the rats.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

See last paragraph in the Trampling section (ITL 127), "A figure does not get a +4 DX when attempting to trample..."

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

A couple of points: Rats shouldn't get the +4 DX for being in HTH because there isn't really any such bonus. The bonus is for attacking a person who's prone and in "normal" HTH, your opponent is prone. When a human attacks an ogre in HTH (from below), he doesn't get the +4 DX either, because the ogre isn't prone.

I used to up the stacking limit too, but the suggestion in the Bestiary that rats can attack from an adjacent hex allows one to go to the "official" stacking limit and still have things work out well -- I think. We'll see next time I have a swarm. (My current interpretation is in this post.)

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Thanks very much for pointing that out.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Am I reading between the lines here, or is the implied gist of this simply that the human with rats in it's hex could (like the giant who would have both a regular attack and a trample in the analogous situation) kill up to 2 rats per turn?

I've always allowed one human to kill 2 rats per turn, but here I may be in the minority? Of course this for me is what makes the new 2 rats/hex limit seem unacceptable, since both rats would normally die before even getting in a single nibble.


[Thank goodness I proofread this before posting because I'd accidentally typed "kiss up to 2 rats per turn", and I wouldn't want anyone to have seen that distasteful mistake!]

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Yes, one with a regular attack and one by trampling.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

LOL!

Now I am trying to create a new rat monster that can only be dispatched by kissing... and exactly how will the player character figure that out? Never mind.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

I wonder if anyone has ever actually used wasps from ITL. Depending on how one plays swarms, a character could be attacked by, say, 6 (or whatever the stacking limit is) or even 14 (using the Bestiary rules for rats stacking two high and attacking from adjacent or same hex). It's -4 adjDX to hit a wasp and one can't stomp a wasp. Most important, a failed 3/ST save increases the damage to 2 to 7 hits.

The Bestiary has nerfed the poison to 1 extra hit and it's not clear whether the rat swarm rules apply. It also makes the to-hit roll -5 adjDX instead of -4. I think that these are more like earth wasps than ITL wasps, so a much higher stacking (higher than two) of wasps could be allowed, but they have to attack from the same hex.

The Bestiary's vampire bats use the same rules as rats.

Small, venomous spiders are not like those in ITL. They must penetrate armor in order to bite (failed 3/DX roll for the target), which raises questions about how a fighter is supposed to kill spiders that have gotten under his armor. There's no explicit stacking rules for spiders either, but I suppose that the stacking allowed is close to infinite. Anyway, it doesn't seem like these critters should really be represented by a counter at all, but just be a swarm in an area of the map. I'll have to think about this.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

I'll let you know how I play these so maybe that will help.

Bats, Rats, Spiders and Wasps: these are the ST 1 nuisance creatures and I play them the same, in general. Note, I use ITL, not the bestiary.

All of them: No stacking limit when on someone, otherwise I keep it to 5.

All of them: 1 hit kills them, no roll for damage even if the attack has a potential for zero damage. I let double or triple damage take out more than 1. I know this is not in the rules but as long as there are more than 1 in the hex that you are attacking I allow this.

All of them need to get on you to attack. I use HTH initiation rules for this, but since HTH initiation allows flying things to land on you (like onto your rear), they are not stopped by engagement.

Poison damage (from spiders and wasps), like bite damage, is treated as a single bite. That is, if 1 wasp or 5 wasps bites got through your armor, you still only roll 1d6 for poison.

Flying ones cannot be stomped.

DX penalty for flying is used until they are on someone's hex. At this point they are not flying but on the person (but also not on the ground).

DX +4 for attacks vs critters in your hex. Attacking critters on a friend using a melee attack that miss will require a roll to miss your friend, AFTER all foes have been missed (standard HTH rule). Missile attacks on critters on a friend are completely random who gets hit (standard HTH rule).

I do allow figures with critters on them to move about but the critters stay with them (going for a ride). This can be used to run through a fire.

Basically I lean on the HTH rules for most of it. I hope this helps. If you do it differently that is good too. These rules need judgement calls to fill the gaps.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Thanks, Axly.

Wasps sound really deadly with these rules. As you say, they can easily enter a hex and try to initiate HTH and 4/5 will succeed (I'm assuming that they get the "entering from the rear" benefit, else it's 2/3). Half of those hit. With no maximum stacking for swarmies in HTH, that could be a bad afternoon.

But the no-stacking limit for those that are on the figure is pretty cool. It makes a lot of sense for wasps in particular.

And while I'm not sure I'll use it, the roll to enter HTH is sort of cinematic, with the beleaguered fighter trying to slow the tide of the swarm climbing onto him. If you'll just add that anyone covered with 12 rats falls prone, so that the rest of the horde can join the feast, it would be appropriately creepy.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

The anti-wasp wizard has the Fire spell, base DX 13, and leather armor.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

I wonder why my players aren't so imaginative. Not once have they chosen a character just for its ability to handle wasps. Weird.

Anyway, I'm not sure what good fire does. Wasps can surely fly over the fire if out of doors (or perhaps avoid it due to the smoke). Even indoors, you'll kill some perhaps (how tall is that fire?), but the others will just avoid the fire, wait it out or leave.

In any case, I was interested in different rules for playing the various swarm critters and not so much character building strategies for defeating the same.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Once the wasps (or any ST 1 critter) is on a person, the wizard casts Fire in their hex. This will kill all critters in the hex and if the person has leather or more, they will be unharmed.

Or, just cast Fire into an open hex and everyone with critters can run through it without stoppping.

Fire is better than Shock Shield for clearing out bugs/rats.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Ask your naturalist to figure out a bug repellent?
Giant Spiders: IQ 2 (ITL 95)
Tiny Spiders: IQ 6 (ITL 100)

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

You're right, Henry, that swarming ITL spiders have the same stats as rats and hence have IQ 6. That's obviously too much.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Tiny spider (and wasp) IQ fixed in Best., halving their chance to accidentally disbelieve your illusion of a fire hex to roast them.

Re: Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.
 

Fire spell has cheaper cost than Illusion and without a chance of disbelief. So, why bother with illusions for bugs/rats?